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TIGSource ForumsDeveloperPlaytestingManufactoria: A Game About Putting Robots In Their Place
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Author Topic: Manufactoria: A Game About Putting Robots In Their Place  (Read 130902 times)
TobiasW
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« Reply #20 on: April 11, 2010, 05:19:04 PM »

Gynoids was to me easier than Androids. Should the dependency be the other way round perhaps?
Sure, why not? Out of curiosity, could I see your Gynoids solution?

Same for me. Androids took a little time, Gynoids was a matter of seconds. I guess he too has something like this.

By the way, I am loving your game! And I'm sorry that I don't get in detail, I am too busy. So please excuse me, these robots don't sort itself. Gentleman
« Last Edit: April 11, 2010, 05:23:14 PM by TobiasW » Logged

PleasingFungus
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« Reply #21 on: April 11, 2010, 05:32:07 PM »

Gynoids was to me easier than Androids. Should the dependency be the other way round perhaps?
Sure, why not? Out of curiosity, could I see your Gynoids solution?

Same for me. Androids took a little time, Gynoids was a matter of seconds. I guess he too has something like this.

By the way, I am loving your game! And I'm sorry that I don't get in detail, I am too busy. So please excuse me, these robots don't sort itself. Gentleman
Haha, that's the last thing I'd complain about! (I've switched Androids and Gynoids, basically. You'll see if you look.)

...that machine. Hm. It's interesting! But, wrong.

So I've broken it now! (Added a new test-case.)

See if you can build a new one!
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« Reply #22 on: April 11, 2010, 05:41:58 PM »

The stated goals aren't really truthful, a prime example is academics, it says "for any X" but how high does any X go? You've only got a limited amount of room to "count" with, so X can only be so high, "for any X" implies any finite number, which isn't true. So what you actually end up doing, is making a machine that can only work for a limited value of X and hope the robots that get thrown at you don't break it.
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TobiasW
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« Reply #23 on: April 11, 2010, 05:54:47 PM »

...that machine. Hm. It's interesting! But, wrong.

So I've broken it now! (Added a new test-case.)

See if you can build a new one!
Can do (Yeah, playing tug-of-war with the programmer Durr...? )

So you suggest there is a solution "for any x"?
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PleasingFungus
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« Reply #24 on: April 11, 2010, 06:04:29 PM »

The stated goals aren't really truthful, a prime example is academics, it says "for any X" but how high does any X go? You've only got a limited amount of room to "count" with, so X can only be so high, "for any X" implies any finite number, which isn't true. So what you actually end up doing, is making a machine that can only work for a limited value of X and hope the robots that get thrown at you don't break it.

It's true that the machines you build won't be able to handle any X. But the limit isn't the size of the grid - it's the length of the tape. And, if you build well, you should be able to handle any string that fits on the tape.

Spoilers: example solution. It would take a while for the larger values, but this will produce the correct output for any X that can be provided as an input. (And, of course, if it can't be provided as an input, why worry about it?)

...that machine. Hm. It's interesting! But, wrong.

So I've broken it now! (Added a new test-case.)

See if you can build a new one!
Can do (Yeah, playing tug-of-war with the programmer Durr...? )

You know what, I'll give you credit on that one for sheer gall. I've been thinking about implementing truly automated testing (in which the game invisibly checks to see if your machine is valid, and feeds you a string that'll break it if the machine's wrong...), but until and unless I do something like that, you're safe. If only for the sake of the other players, who'd have to sit through the string that'd break that monster.

(I can't stop laughing. What a monstrosity you've built!)
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TobiasW
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« Reply #25 on: April 11, 2010, 06:19:33 PM »

(I can't stop laughing. What a monstrosity you've built!)

And you haven't even seen its bigger brother! (Actually, I have no idea if that works, your inputs are waaaaaaay too short.)
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« Reply #26 on: April 11, 2010, 07:51:20 PM »

(I can't stop laughing. What a monstrosity you've built!)

And you haven't even seen its bigger brother! (Actually, I have no idea if that works, your inputs are waaaaaaay too short.)
It beats quite literally the longest string I can throw at it, which means you win!

With far more effort than doing it 'properly' would take! (Or far more parts, at least.)

Congrats!
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« Reply #27 on: April 11, 2010, 09:28:14 PM »

Bug: even when some parts are not visible in interface they can be selected with keyboard shortcuts Smiley
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PleasingFungus
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« Reply #28 on: April 11, 2010, 09:39:11 PM »

Bug: even when some parts are not visible in interface they can be selected with keyboard shortcuts Smiley

Huh, I can't seem to do the same thing, with number keys - though I did find a bug involving space + 'pusher'/'writer' components. Is that what you meant? If not, could you give me more details / mention which level you found the bug on?
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« Reply #29 on: April 11, 2010, 09:54:35 PM »

Bug: even when some parts are not visible in interface they can be selected with keyboard shortcuts Smiley

Huh, I can't seem to do the same thing, with number keys - though I did find a bug involving space + 'pusher'/'writer' components. Is that what you meant? If not, could you give me more details / mention which level you found the bug on?

On 'Robotic cats' pressing 4 or 5 allow to place writers.
Also on level 'Robotic satellites' unmodified (obviously) empty  robot fails test for some reason.
And on this level I started to want 'max' speed, with failed test repeated with 1x speed.
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PleasingFungus
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« Reply #30 on: April 11, 2010, 10:00:32 PM »

Bug: even when some parts are not visible in interface they can be selected with keyboard shortcuts Smiley

Huh, I can't seem to do the same thing, with number keys - though I did find a bug involving space + 'pusher'/'writer' components. Is that what you meant? If not, could you give me more details / mention which level you found the bug on?

On 'Robotic cats' pressing 4 or 5 allow to place writers.
Also on level 'Robotic satellites' unmodified (obviously) empty  robot fails test for some reason.
And on this level I started to want 'max' speed, with failed test repeated with 1x speed.

The satellites thing is completely my fault - a one character typo. Should be fixed now.

A little confused about the hotkey-bug. I tried and failed to replicate it, on cats and other levels, with components already selected and not. It did nothing. I'm not even sure how it could do something - the relevant components aren't even loaded for those levels. Can anyone else replicate this?

(The speed bug is also odd... I'll look into that.)
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« Reply #31 on: April 11, 2010, 10:25:55 PM »


A little confused about the hotkey-bug. I tried and failed to replicate it, on cats and other levels, with components already selected and not. It did nothing. I'm not even sure how it could do something - the relevant components aren't even loaded for those levels. Can anyone else replicate this?

(The speed bug is also odd... I'll look into that.)
Here is screenshot:

When I press 4 or 5 picture of corresponding gadget blinks for a moment on toolbar.

About speed - it's not bug, it's a wish Smiley
Satellites level takes a few minutes to test at 8x on my computer.
I want 'run without visualisation, but repeat failed level at 1x speed' option Smiley

For some reason when game is in main menu with turned off music,
my safari with only the game loaded consumes like 60% CPU (which is one core + a little more).
I'm on mac mini with 1.6Ghz core duo CPU btw.
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« Reply #32 on: April 11, 2010, 11:48:02 PM »

In 'Robotic androids' there is a typo in the goal text.
"An equal number orof blue and red, in any order".
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easynam
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« Reply #33 on: April 12, 2010, 12:48:09 AM »

(the new) Sailors tells me to multiply by 8, yet this solution is somehow wrong?

http://pleasingfungus.com/Manufactoria.swf?lvl=20&code=c12:8f3;c12:9f3;r12:5f3;r12:6f3;r12:7f3;

Also the text for generals doesnt fit into the box.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2010, 12:53:21 AM by easyname » Logged

Draknek
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« Reply #34 on: April 12, 2010, 01:42:16 AM »

Out of curiosity, could I see your Gynoids solution?
Here you go.

Is the 'slow down' button still as needed now that there are only three speeds? (I was hoping it wouldn't be.)

A pause button is now in! It's... slightly visually glitchy, but that's not too big a deal.
No, I don't feel the need for a slow down button. It would be nice if pause didn't obscure part of the screen, but it's much better than nothing.

Bug: even when some parts are not visible in interface they can be selected with keyboard shortcuts Smiley
I can reproduce this.

(the new) Sailors tells me to multiply by 8, yet this solution is somehow wrong?

http://pleasingfungus.com/Manufactoria.swf?lvl=20&code=c12:8f3;c12:9f3;r12:5f3;r12:6f3;r12:7f3;
This too.

Bug: on mouseover, the level name is displayed for something like a fraction of a second and is then replaced by the level description. Just enough time to see there's something there, but not enough time to actually read it properly.

Suggestion: make the link to a saved level not part of the query-string for the SWF file itself. The browser needs to download the whole file every single time, because it can't tell that the level data isn't causing a different version of the file to be served.

Suggestion: clicking someone else's solution for a level will overwrite your own, so a log of every solution you've used for every level would be nice. BUT obviously that would be a lot of work and potentially run into storage limits.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2010, 01:52:55 AM by Draknek » Logged

Falmil
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« Reply #35 on: April 12, 2010, 07:01:13 AM »

The new version has some of the level text scroll through too fast.

Also, for the output levels, maybe you're recoding bad robots? They don't seem to have an explanation yet.

Also, I can't read the text for the "Generals" level; it goes behind the "help","reset", and "menu" buttons.

I still don't get how to do this output levels without reading in what you just wrote out.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2010, 07:50:56 AM by Falmil » Logged
Draknek
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« Reply #36 on: April 12, 2010, 10:02:24 AM »

I think I've inadvertently created a complicated no-op machine...
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PleasingFungus
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« Reply #37 on: April 12, 2010, 11:27:51 AM »


A little confused about the hotkey-bug. I tried and failed to replicate it, on cats and other levels, with components already selected and not. It did nothing. I'm not even sure how it could do something - the relevant components aren't even loaded for those levels. Can anyone else replicate this?

(The speed bug is also odd... I'll look into that.)
When I press 4 or 5 picture of corresponding gadget blinks for a moment on toolbar.
Ahhhhhh. Got it. It wasn't resetting a certain array correctly after leaving levels with those tools enabled... anyway. Fixed now.

About speed - it's not bug, it's a wish Smiley
Satellites level takes a few minutes to test at 8x on my computer.
I want 'run without visualisation, but repeat failed level at 1x speed' option Smiley
It's a nice idea, but here's the problem. Let's say there's a loop in the machine - intentional or unintentional. Two conveyor belts, pointing at each-other. Normally, a player will notice this, sigh (or curse), and stop the run. How is a computer supposed to detect that kind of thing? (If it keeps running until you either accept or reject, it'll lock up!)

I'm not saying it's an insurmountable problem - there are at least two ways I can think of to handle it - but it's tricky.

For some reason when game is in main menu with turned off music,
my safari with only the game loaded consumes like 60% CPU (which is one core + a little more).
I'm on mac mini with 1.6Ghz core duo CPU btw.
Two reasons for that. One: I have done zero optimization. Two: Flash for the Mac is terrible.

Does seem suboptimal, though. I've uploaded a new version that should be a fair bit less CPU-hungry where it doesn't need to be; let me know if that helps. (Should be about the same when you're actually working with machines, unfortunately, but easier on the CPU in menus and sim'lar things.)


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(the new) Sailors tells me to multiply by 8, yet this solution is somehow wrong?

http://pleasingfungus.com/Manufactoria.swf?lvl=20&code=c12:8f3;c12:9f3;r12:5f3;r12:6f3;r12:7f3;
That was me not writing the description clearly enough. Fixed now; you should be able to see the problem.

Also the text for generals doesnt fit into the box.
Oops! Fixed.


-


Quote from: Draknek
No, I don't feel the need for a slow down button. It would be nice if pause didn't obscure part of the screen, but it's much better than nothing.
I fought a desperate battle with the pause-function just now - striving to assert my dominance! Long story short - the pause no longer obscures the screen. (While testing machines, anyway.) Hopefully that's an improvement!

Quote from: Draknek
Bug: on mouseover, the level name is displayed for something like a fraction of a second and is then replaced by the level description. Just enough time to see there's something there, but not enough time to actually read it properly.
Hmmmmmmm.

What OS are you running?

Quote from: Draknek
Suggestion: make the link to a saved level not part of the query-string for the SWF file itself. The browser needs to download the whole file every single time, because it can't tell that the level data isn't causing a different version of the file to be served.
If you've already got the game open, you can go to the relevant level and paste the string in to the save/load box to load the level without re-loading the game. (It'll trim out the http://etc automatically!) And if you don't have the game open already - hey! It's convenient!

What I could do is set it to load the relevant level when you enter it into the save/load box, as well as the machine. Would that be helpful?

Quote from: Draknek
Suggestion: clicking someone else's solution for a level will overwrite your own, so a log of every solution you've used for every level would be nice. BUT obviously that would be a lot of work and potentially run into storage limits.
I guess I'd save everything that succeeded? And you could access it through the save/load screen. Perhaps just the last 5 or 10...

It's on the list!


-


The new version has some of the level text scroll through too fast.
...level text? Scrolling? I have scrolling level text?
(Is this what Draknek was talking about - with the mouseovers on level-icons?)

Also, for the output levels, maybe you're recoding bad robots? They don't seem to have an explanation yet.
Oh! Yes, something like that. Explanations for the output levels (similar to the one for the binary levels) are On My List, but I've been working on other things first. Fighting fires.

I still don't get how to do this output levels without reading in what you just wrote out.
You need to give your machine a clue, so it knows when it's read everything.


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Falmil
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« Reply #38 on: April 12, 2010, 12:32:32 PM »

I don't understand why easyname's solution doesn't work for "Sailors". To test the first robot (1 blue), I tried it myself simply adding on 3 reds, writing 1 blue and 3 reds,  and even writing 3 reds and 1 blue in case the endianness was reversed. All of them failed, so I guess I don't understand what it wants.
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PleasingFungus
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« Reply #39 on: April 12, 2010, 12:44:18 PM »

I don't understand why easyname's solution doesn't work for "Sailors". To test the first robot (1 blue), I tried it myself simply adding on 3 reds, writing 1 blue and 3 reds,  and even writing 3 reds and 1 blue in case the endianness was reversed. All of them failed, so I guess I don't understand what it wants.
Could I see your solution?
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