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TIGSource ForumsDeveloperPlaytestingManufactoria: A Game About Putting Robots In Their Place
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Author Topic: Manufactoria: A Game About Putting Robots In Their Place  (Read 138480 times)
Falmil
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« Reply #40 on: April 12, 2010, 01:00:45 PM »

Sailors first robot: 1 blue

write 3 reds
http://pleasingfungus.com/Manufactoria.swf?lvl=20&code=r12:6f3;r12:7f3;r12:8f3;c12:5f3;c12:9f3;

write 1 blue, 3 reds
http://pleasingfungus.com/Manufactoria.swf?lvl=20&code=r12:6f3;r12:7f3;r12:8f3;c12:9f3;b12:5f3;

write 3 reds, 1 blue
http://pleasingfungus.com/Manufactoria.swf?lvl=20&code=r12:6f3;r12:7f3;r12:8f3;c12:5f3;b12:9f3;

It seems like one of these solutions should get past the first robot, or I just don't understand the instructions.

EDIT: Writing 3 blues passes the first and second robots.
http://pleasingfungus.com/Manufactoria.swf?lvl=20&code=c12:5f3;b12:6f3;b12:7f3;b12:8f3;c12:9f3;
Did you mix up the colors?

Also, I FINALLY get how to write to the robot without reading what you wrote. I thought of just writing a "green" to the end to mark where I should stop, but didn't think it would work because then the green would be the first color. I didn't think to then read in the green to get rid of it.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2010, 01:50:49 PM by Falmil » Logged
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« Reply #41 on: April 12, 2010, 02:42:57 PM »

EDIT: Writing 3 blues passes the first and second robots.
http://pleasingfungus.com/Manufactoria.swf?lvl=20&code=c12:5f3;b12:6f3;b12:7f3;b12:8f3;c12:9f3;
Did you mix up the colors?
Have you been running it in the same tab/window all this time? I update pretty frequently to fix bugs and add new levels/features; it looks like you've been running on an old version. Try refreshing!

(I was confused because I'd fixed the bug you were describing before your first post about it.)

Also, I FINALLY get how to write to the robot without reading what you wrote. I thought of just writing a "green" to the end to mark where I should stop, but didn't think it would work because then the green would be the first color. I didn't think to then read in the green to get rid of it.
Yep! It's a powerful technique. (I use yellow, myself!)
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« Reply #42 on: April 12, 2010, 02:52:22 PM »

It beats quite literally the longest string I can throw at it, which means you win!

With far more effort than doing it 'properly' would take! (Or far more parts, at least.)

Congrats!
See, that's what I mean by "most people don't program for scalability Durr...?
(Just joking. And I better don't tell you that you could break my construction quite easily by having for example more reds in a row than I have switches on the red side...)

By the way, I finally got a correct solution. And yeah, that was way harder than the other (the former androids).
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« Reply #43 on: April 12, 2010, 03:04:22 PM »

I fought a desperate battle with the pause-function just now - striving to assert my dominance! Long story short - the pause no longer obscures the screen. (While testing machines, anyway.) Hopefully that's an improvement!
Much better! Minor addition: make it unpause if you click play or "back to editor"?

Hmmmmmmm.

What OS are you running?
Linux. I've now noticed that this isn't consistent though. Sometimes it will change ridiculously fast, but other times it will wait a sensible amount of time.

If you've already got the game open, you can go to the relevant level and paste the string in to the save/load box to load the level without re-loading the game. (It'll trim out the http://etc automatically!) And if you don't have the game open already - hey! It's convenient!
I agree that the link-to-solution thing is really convenient; I don't for a moment think you should take that out. But if you use # instead of ? or link to a HTML/PHP page with the query string instead of directly to the SWF file, then the game will load much more quickly if it's already been cached on the user's computer. Appending the query string to the SWF filename forces the browser to download a fresh copy of the game.
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TobiasW
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« Reply #44 on: April 12, 2010, 03:26:41 PM »

It would be nice if I could have the robot that failed last time come in front. Furthermore, when a robot fails, please don't immediately take me back, pause it! And maybe give me the chance to see this roboters full band after I examined the current status.

Oh, and the music stops looping after a while.

(Still in love with this game! I should sleep and/or work, and instead I play. I HOPE YOU ARE PROUD OF YOURSELF Smiley )
« Last Edit: April 12, 2010, 03:45:05 PM by TobiasW » Logged

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« Reply #45 on: April 12, 2010, 03:35:25 PM »

That was me not writing the description clearly enough. Fixed now; you should be able to see the problem.
Ok, I have this now, and the third one appears to be wrong according to those instructions (should the output be just 1 red or something? because the instructions state no leading reds)
http://pleasingfungus.com/Manufactoria.swf?lvl=20&code=p12:9f3;b11:9f2;r13:9f0;c12:8f3;c11:8f2;g12:7f3;b11:7f3;p12:6f3;c13:6f0;g11:6f3;r12:4f3;r12:5f2;r13:5f3;q12:10f0;
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« Reply #46 on: April 12, 2010, 03:44:08 PM »

Ok, I have this now, and the third one appears to be wrong according to those instructions (should the output be just 1 red or something? because the instructions state no leading reds)
Outputting "1 red" worked for me, yep. "Leading" normally means numbers which aren't exactly needed to express the number, for example 00432 could be written as 432, the 00 were the "leading zeros". "0" has no leading zeros.
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easynam
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« Reply #47 on: April 12, 2010, 03:55:07 PM »

Ah, ok. I've solved it now Smiley
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PleasingFungus
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« Reply #48 on: April 12, 2010, 04:11:07 PM »

I fought a desperate battle with the pause-function just now - striving to assert my dominance! Long story short - the pause no longer obscures the screen. (While testing machines, anyway.) Hopefully that's an improvement!
Much better! Minor addition: make it unpause if you click play or "back to editor"?
Made it unpause when you click. (It was simpler.) How's that work for you?

Hmmmmmmm.

What OS are you running?
Linux. I've now noticed that this isn't consistent though. Sometimes it will change ridiculously fast, but other times it will wait a sensible amount of time.
Not sure I can help you. Sounds like an issue with the flash-player, not the game. (No pun intended.)


If you've already got the game open, you can go to the relevant level and paste the string in to the save/load box to load the level without re-loading the game. (It'll trim out the http://etc automatically!) And if you don't have the game open already - hey! It's convenient!
I agree that the link-to-solution thing is really convenient; I don't for a moment think you should take that out. But if you use # instead of ? or link to a HTML/PHP page with the query string instead of directly to the SWF file, then the game will load much more quickly if it's already been cached on the user's computer. Appending the query string to the SWF filename forces the browser to download a fresh copy of the game.
Haha, I have no idea of what I'm doing with the URLs!

Putting in a # seems to break saves, but the link-to-page-with-game-embedded seems to work. The game will now do so. Thanks for the advice!

It would be nice if I could have the robot that failed last time come in front. Furthermore, when a robot fails, please don't immediately take me back, pause it! And maybe give me the chance to see this roboters full band after I examined the current status.
I've been tossing around ideas like this for a bit. Two screens, actually: one for when a robot fails the test (which would let you see the test it failed, what the output should've been, what it actually was...), and another for when your robot passes all tests, letting you see how long you took (in adjusted time - so running at 8x speed wouldn't give you an advantage) and how many components you used. That'd have the advantage of encouraging competition and replay of levels already beaten - see if you can get the most elegant design!

The pause idea is a very nice stopgap, though. I'm in the middle of implementing it now (there are some technical issues that make it a bit tricky); will post again when it's done.

Oh, and the music stops looping after a while.
So I'm told. Not sure what's causing that. ...though I have an idea... will have to fiddle.

(Still in love with this game! I should sleep and/or work, and instead I play. I HOPE YOU ARE PROUD OF YOURSELF Smiley )
I couldn't be prouder!

That was me not writing the description clearly enough. Fixed now; you should be able to see the problem.
Ok, I have this now, and the third one appears to be wrong according to those instructions (should the output be just 1 red or something? because the instructions state no leading reds)
http://pleasingfungus.com/Manufactoria.swf?lvl=20&code=p12:9f3;b11:9f2;r13:9f0;c12:8f3;c11:8f2;g12:7f3;b11:7f3;p12:6f3;c13:6f0;g11:6f3;r12:4f3;r12:5f2;r13:5f3;q12:10f0;
Short answer: last test should output 1 red, yeah.
Long answer: Hold that thought.
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« Reply #49 on: April 12, 2010, 04:37:33 PM »

Generals (powers of 4) doesn't accept a blue followed by nine reds. I think this solution should work. Also it should say "accept" instead of "output".

Made it unpause when you click. (It was simpler.) How's that work for you?
Yeah, that's great.

I've been tossing around ideas like this for a bit. Two screens, actually: one for when a robot fails the test (which would let you see the test it failed, what the output should've been, what it actually was...), and another for when your robot passes all tests, letting you see how long you took (in adjusted time - so running at 8x speed wouldn't give you an advantage) and how many components you used. That'd have the advantage of encouraging competition and replay of levels already beaten - see if you can get the most elegant design!
I approve of this idea. One step further would be to have an online highscore table for each level (like in Fantastic Contraption you can see other player's solutions to the same level). That's loads of work though, so it's probably not a good idea to start going down that road.
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« Reply #50 on: April 12, 2010, 04:47:50 PM »

I'm eagerly awaiting the additional features, Mr. Cavalcadeofcats. Still a few levels to beat for me... Smiley

Generals (powers of 4) doesn't accept a blue followed by nine reds.
Well, 512 is no natural power of 4. (4^4=256, 4^5=1024)
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Laremere
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« Reply #51 on: April 12, 2010, 04:50:49 PM »

Hey, this is the first time I've ever done a logic game of this type, I quite like it.

A few suggestions / notes:

At first I instinctively build my machines so that all the inputs for the branches would always go in the side with no arrow, I would suggest making it noted that that isn't needed.

A further increased speed would be really nice, say like a tile or more per frame if possible.

On the androids level a solution of mine would fail because I would write something before removing something, so I have to go with a slightly less elegant solution.  Removing one pair on the second really long one would fix that.

Some of the early ones I could more or less brute force solutions that would still solve it, but only with shorter strings, and would horribly fail with longer ones (I would basically need more room the longer the string is.)  Going back I was able to redo them with much more elegant solutions that solve it faster and could solve strings of any size.  I don't know if you want to allow the more hackish solutions or not, but I thought I'd mention it.

Speaking of long strings to make sure people aren't using non-scalable solutions, please please please make the long strings very last.  It's very annoying to wait for it to simulate a long string (which is made even worse that the first working copy is probably inefficient) only for it to fail at an empty test or something silly like that that takes 5 seconds to fix and 3 minuets to wait for it to simulate the long strings again.

Also make the fast forward button apparent, I didn't notice it until I read someone mention it in this thread.

I would suggest making it so linked ones don't over-ride your previous ones at all, nor grant you anything on running them.  Sure people could still just copy the design over, but I would use linking more to show of my solutions to people who have beat it in a different way, and less to give other people solutions to advance.

I beat generals before you fixed the text being broken, by playing around with the level to see what would work, is this a valid solution to for all numbers, and not just the ones fed? (I honestly can't figure out how I solved it, I only know it works) : http://pleasingfungus.com/Manufactoria.swf?lvl=22&code=p12:2f3;c11:3f3;c11:4f3;c11:6f0;i11:5f5;c12:4f3;c12:5f3;c12:6f3;c12:7f3;c12:8f3;c12:9f3;c12:10f3;c12:11f3;c12:12f3;c11:2f3;p10:6f0;c10:7f0;i9:7f6;c8:7f1;c8:6f1;c8:5f1;c8:4f1;c8:3f2;c9:6f3;c9:8f2;c10:8f2;c11:8f2;p9:3f3;c10:3f2;p10:5f1;c9:5f0;c13:2f0;

It beats quite literally the longest string I can throw at it, which means you win!

With far more effort than doing it 'properly' would take! (Or far more parts, at least.)

Congrats!
See, that's what I mean by "most people don't program for scalability Durr...?
(Just joking. And I better don't tell you that you could break my construction quite easily by having for example more reds in a row than I have switches on the red side...)

By the way, I finally got a correct solution. And yeah, that was way harder than the other (the former androids).
I don't believe that solution would work if either red or blue had a greater amount than the other by two or more.  This is how I solved it to work for all possible strings: (Accidentally killed my old optimized version, this is slightly different, thought it may be a tad faster or slower, I really don't know)
http://pleasingfungus.com/?lvl=8&code=c12:2f3;c12:3f3;c12:4f3;c12:5f3;p12:6f3;g11:6f0;g13:6f2;p10:6f0;p14:6f2;r14:5f3;p14:7f3;p10:7f3;r11:7f0;b9:7f2;b13:7f2;r15:7f0;c12:7f3;c12:8f3;c12:9f3;c12:10f3;c12:11f3;c12:12f3;q14:8f3;q10:8f1;c9:8f0;c8:8f1;c8:7f1;c8:6f1;c8:5f1;c8:4f2;c9:4f2;c10:4f2;c11:4f2;c15:8f2;c16:8f1;c16:7f1;c16:6f1;c16:5f1;c16:4f0;c15:4f0;c14:4f0;c13:4f0;b10:5f3;

Also, here is my solution before I went make and optimized it (and thought I had to feed things a certain way): http://img521.imageshack.us/img521/5617/confusedt.png

I have no clue what I'm supposed to do for school teachers, can you explain in further what I'm trying to accomplish.


I have four levels left.  I have to figure out Admirals and School teachers, Children just popped up but it doesn't look hard, and I'm looking forward to finding out what the challenge is for the final locked one.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2010, 05:07:03 PM by Laremere » Logged

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« Reply #52 on: April 12, 2010, 05:03:12 PM »

Well, 512 is no natural power of 4. (4^4=256, 4^5=1024)
Right, apparently I don't realise there's a difference between "power of 4" and "multiple of 4".  Facepalm

Now that I've got that out of the way, it's a bit easy for its position in the dependency chain.
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« Reply #53 on: April 12, 2010, 05:04:18 PM »

I don't believe that solution would work if either red or blue had a greater amount than the other by two or more.
Oh. Oh, yes, you are right. Thank you; back to work, then...
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« Reply #54 on: April 12, 2010, 05:29:37 PM »

The pause-on-failure thing is now in! It's a placeholder, and honestly pretty hideous, but it's better than nothing. Let me know what you think! I FEAST ON YOUR FEEDBACK.

And it looks like you've got a lot of feedback to give! Let's get to it. Om nom nom nom:

Also it should say "accept" instead of "output".
That's what I get for copy-pasting! Fixed.

I've been tossing around ideas like this for a bit. Two screens, actually: one for when a robot fails the test (which would let you see the test it failed, what the output should've been, what it actually was...), and another for when your robot passes all tests, letting you see how long you took (in adjusted time - so running at 8x speed wouldn't give you an advantage) and how many components you used. That'd have the advantage of encouraging competition and replay of levels already beaten - see if you can get the most elegant design!
I approve of this idea. One step further would be to have an online highscore table for each level (like in Fantastic Contraption you can see other player's solutions to the same level). That's loads of work though, so it's probably not a good idea to start going down that road.
I'm not really fond of global high-score tables. They tend to be dominated by people who've put immense amounts of time into the game, leaving me, at least, rather intimidated and turned-off. A more interesting idea, for me, is a global level repository; somewhere that your successful levels can be (automatically?) uploaded, and browsed by others. Upvoted for elegance, commented on... that sort of thing.

Either way, though, it's a big project. (The level-repository idea even moreso!) If it's ever coming, it's a long ways out.

At first I instinctively build my machines so that all the inputs for the branches would always go in the side with no arrow, I would suggest making it noted that that isn't needed.
There's a ton of things that confuse people about the branch-tool when they first encounter it. The 'grey arrow' ("There are grey symbols?"), the way they erase symbols they've read... and the problem you mentioned. Most people seem to be confused by one or more of these things... confused enough to comment, even!

I've been thinking about adding another introductory slide-thing like the one for binary numbers for The Humble Branch, but I'm not sure where I'd put it. Perhaps I could just tack it on to the end of the intro-slideshow, if that doesn't make it too long; or I could have a 'link' to it in the help-screen...

A further increased speed would be really nice, say like a tile or more per frame if possible.
Haha! When I first introduced the speeds, they were 1x, 2x, and 3x. For launch, they were 1x, 2x, 4x, and 8x. And now - just for you - I've changed them to 1x, 8x, and 60x.

Speed demons, all of you!

(Well. Maybe.)

On the androids level a solution of mine would fail because I would write something before removing something, so I have to go with a slightly less elegant solution.  Removing one pair on the second really long one would fix that.
Done!

Some of the early ones I could more or less brute force solutions that would still solve it, but only with shorter strings, and would horribly fail with longer ones (I would basically need more room the longer the string is.)  Going back I was able to redo them with much more elegant solutions that solve it faster and could solve strings of any size.  I don't know if you want to allow the more hackish solutions or not, but I thought I'd mention it.
It's something I've been torn about. I'm inclined, for the moment, to be pretty lenient on the earlier levels; I don't want to attack new players with 50-symbol long test-strings. But they're going to have to learn the techniques in the early levels if they want to beat the later ones...

Ehh. You figured it out. It's not too big a deal.

Speaking of long strings to make sure people aren't using non-scalable solutions, please please please make the long strings very last.  It's very annoying to wait for it to simulate a long string (which is made even worse that the first working copy is probably inefficient) only for it to fail at an empty test or something silly like that that takes 5 seconds to fix and 3 minuets to wait for it to simulate the long strings again.
Sorry, that's my sadistic side coming out. I've gone through and re-ordered everything. Sorry!

Also make the fast forward button apparent, I didn't notice it until I read someone mention it in this thread.
What would you suggest?

I would suggest making it so linked ones don't over-ride your previous ones at all, nor grant you anything on running them.  Sure people could still just copy the design over, but I would use linking more to show of my solutions to people who have beat it in a different way, and less to give other people solutions to advance.
My first inclination was to respond, "there are technical obstacles."

But then I did it!

I beat generals before you fixed the text being broken, by playing around with the level to see what would work, is this a valid solution to for all numbers, and not just the ones fed? (I honestly can't figure out how I solved it, I only know it works) : http://pleasingfungus.com/Manufactoria.swf?lvl=22&code=p12:2f3;c11:3f3;c11:4f3;c11:6f0;i11:5f5;c12:4f3;c12:5f3;c12:6f3;c12:7f3;c12:8f3;c12:9f3;c12:10f3;c12:11f3;c12:12f3;c11:2f3;p10:6f0;c10:7f0;i9:7f6;c8:7f1;c8:6f1;c8:5f1;c8:4f1;c8:3f2;c9:6f3;c9:8f2;c10:8f2;c11:8f2;p9:3f3;c10:3f2;p10:5f1;c9:5f0;c13:2f0;
Nope! It's very close, though. (I've added a new test that breaks your machine; see if you can fix it!)


I have no clue what I'm supposed to do for school teachers, can you explain in further what I'm trying to accomplish.
Added a bit of a clunky clarification to the new version.


I have four levels left.  I have to figure out Admirals and School teachers, Children just popped up but it doesn't look hard, and I'm looking forward to finding out what the challenge is for the final locked one.

Nice! Thanks for all the feedback, Laremere (and Draknek, and of course TobiasW...) - it's been really valuable!
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« Reply #55 on: April 12, 2010, 05:37:45 PM »

Quote
What would you suggest?
Possibly one the first level when you hit play a bubble pops up saying it can change speed or something.

Also, you probably should set it to 1x speed every time you switch levels.  You have to go to a long level if you have 60x on a short level to turn it off.

60x rocks tough Smiley
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« Reply #56 on: April 12, 2010, 05:56:22 PM »

Quote
What would you suggest?
Possibly one the first level when you hit play a bubble pops up saying it can change speed or something.
...I'll have to think about it.

Also, you probably should set it to 1x speed every time you switch levels.  You have to go to a long level if you have 60x on a short level to turn it off.
Done!

Also, leading 0s are now ignored on all binary levels. Your solution for Sailor works now, easyname! I did it for you.
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« Reply #57 on: April 12, 2010, 10:31:00 PM »

I can confirm name/description delay bug in main menu.
This time on macosx/safari.
Yesterday it was totally ok with delay.
Today delay was short at first, but not too short to not be able to read, and than become almost instant.

p.s. pressed 'reload', and now delay is fine again.
p.p.s. MWAHAHA! I uncovered truth behind description delay! It depends on speed of last test run Smiley
« Last Edit: April 12, 2010, 10:46:45 PM by Xecutor » Logged
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« Reply #58 on: April 12, 2010, 10:35:22 PM »

I can confirm name/description delay bug in main menu.
This time on macosx/safari.
Yesterday it was totally ok with delay.
Today delay was short at first, but not too short to not be able to read, and than become almost instant.

p.s. pressed 'reload', and now delay is fine again.
Yeah, not too much I can do about non-Windows Flash Player being awful, except moving the names elsewhere, I guess.

Out of curiosity - does the same effect happen with other tooltips (on components, buttons, etc), or only on the level-names/descriptions?
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« Reply #59 on: April 12, 2010, 10:47:52 PM »

Didn't noticed that you replied.
Looks like delay of level description depends on speed of last test run Smiley
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