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TIGSource ForumsDeveloperDesignLevel Design Workshop - #3 Structural Atmosphere
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Author Topic: Level Design Workshop - #3 Structural Atmosphere  (Read 65386 times)
Jonathan Whiting
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« Reply #100 on: July 18, 2010, 05:11:42 AM »

Is that last jump on your demo level even possible Jonathan?

It is, though I'm not convinced I'd recommend using it, it does touch on the unfair.
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Draknek
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« Reply #101 on: July 18, 2010, 05:24:45 AM »

All works for me.

As a general point, as I'll probably be reusing this core functionality again in the future, do let me know if there's anything I can do to make using it substantially easier.
R to reset would be nice, as well as E to switch between edit and test mode.

"Play" and "Edit" gives a larger clickable area than "P" and "E".

And in general, it's nice to have undo/redo in an editor, but that's not essential, especially with as few tiles as we have here.

For this challenge specifically, a checkpoint tile might be nice.

I'll agree that the low jump is a big difficulty spike.

I liked the choice of routes in the middle.
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increpare
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« Reply #102 on: July 18, 2010, 06:12:13 AM »

I don't see the button to go into editor/play mode anywhere
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JoGribbs
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« Reply #103 on: July 18, 2010, 07:59:07 AM »

Can I suggest that right click be delete the current tile? It'd be a lot easier than selecting the empty one and going over it.
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Dustin Smith
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« Reply #104 on: July 18, 2010, 08:11:55 AM »

Hey guys, first off I'd like to apologize for not giving my critiques for your sokoban levels -- I've been going through a rough patch lately. Hopping on a library computer and working on these levels has made my day though. Once I get access to the internet regularly I'll make sure to do better, cross my heart.
 
My six levels are meant to be played sequentially, kinda had to rush through them due to a time constraint. Feel free to rip them apart.

level one: http://jonathanwhiting.com/coding/ldw/composition.swf?level=PKFQAJGKHJHJHJFLHJHJHJHJHJHJGgJHJHJHJHJFhJHJHJHJHJGKFLHJHJHJEMHJHJHJHJGKFLFLHgIHgIHgIEMHJHJHJGKHgIHgIHgIGKHJHJHJHJGYJHPK

level two: http://jonathanwhiting.com/coding/ldw/composition.swf?level=PKFQAJHJGKHJHJEIBJEIBJHJHJCIDJHJHJBPFLHJHJDICJDICJHJHJDICJHJHJHJDICJHJDICJHJHJHJCOHJHJHJFLGgJGgJDIBgJGgJGgJDIBgJGgJGgJGgJDIBgJGgJDIBgJGgJGgJGgJGgJEMDYPN

level three: http://jonathanwhiting.com/coding/ldw/composition.swf?level=PKBYIBQKCIDJCIDJCIDJHgIHgICICIgIHgIHgIHgICICIgIHgIHgIHgIHgICICIgIHgIHgIHgICICKHJFgAJCIBgAJCIBgAJFgAJFgAJFgAJDIAgAJDIAgAJFgAJFgAJFgAJDICJDICgIDICgIHgIHgIFPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPPK

level four: http://jonathanwhiting.com/coding/ldw/composition.swf?level=PKFQKHJHJHJHJHJjBhJHJHJHJGKFLHgIiBiJHgIHJHJHgIGKFLEMHJHJgBkJHgIHgIHJHgIHgIHgIGKHgIFIAgIHgIEIBgIHgIHgIHgIDICgIHgIHgIHgICIDgIHgIHgIjCKHJHJHJHJHJHJFYPL

level five: http://jonathanwhiting.com/coding/ldw/composition.swf?level=PKAQPHgIHgIjBLFLHgIHgIHgIHgIHgIFLFLHgIHgIHgIHgIHgIFLHgIHgIHgIFLHgIHgIiBiJHgIHgIFLHgIHgIiAjJHgIGKGKHgIHgIHgICIDgIFLFLEMBPAPIAPIAPIGPIAPIAPIAOCOAPIAPIYPN

level six: http://jonathanwhiting.com/coding/ldw/composition.swf?level=POQPBPEgLEgLBPIAPIAPIAPEgLEgLEgLEgLCPBNCNCNCOBPBPHgIHgIiBIBgIhFgIhFgIhBgKgJCgKgJCIjJCICKGgIkCgIkCgJFLFLFLiAhLFLFLFLGgJGgJEMDNFLgAjLFLFLEMDNCOBPBPAYPPPJ
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JoGribbs
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« Reply #105 on: July 18, 2010, 08:15:26 AM »

Haven't played through all your levels yet, but I really like the beginning of this one. Asking the player to vault the harmless obstacles, then the harmful ones arranged in the same pattern.

I think it's pretty clever is all :S

EDIT: First Attempt
« Last Edit: July 18, 2010, 08:30:14 AM by JoGribbs » Logged
Lord Tim
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« Reply #106 on: July 18, 2010, 11:59:03 AM »

Here is mine that is way too hard. I will try and do one that ramps better later today, though. I just had fun with this one. It has two paths, which are about the same difficulty, and are both beatable, though I haven't done either in one run. I've beaten them with cheater checkpoints.

Oh god it hurts

Here is the level without any pointy bits:
Not sharp
It is interesting, because now the bottom path is a lot more difficult, since you can still fall off the bottom. The top still provides some challenge, but you can keep retrying and easily master the jumps.

P.S. I think I've found a bug in the code. On the very top level, the collision doesn't work the same as on normal levels. For example, try jumping from the back of the fourth L to its top on this level.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2010, 05:07:32 PM by Lord Tim » Logged
Draknek
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« Reply #107 on: July 18, 2010, 12:25:54 PM »

I am wondering: do per-level difficulty curves really work that well if you don't have checkpoints? It forces you to replay over and over again the bits you can do before you can get to the part of the level that's actually killing you.

What if instead you put the difficult parts at the start and then made the level get easier as you get further? (The assumption being that previous levels have taught you what you need to know already.)
My level: Inverse difficulty. It is quite clearly not a good example of level design.

I don't see the button to go into editor/play mode anywhere
The E/P in the corner does that.

Can I suggest that right click be delete the current tile? It'd be a lot easier than selecting the empty one and going over it.
Unfortunately you can't use right-click in Flash but something similar might be click=delete when ctrl is held down.
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sodap
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« Reply #108 on: July 18, 2010, 04:05:54 PM »

I didnt complete #1, I might do it later (i hate sokoban though)

but I made this series of levels for #2

Level One: http://jonathanwhiting.com/coding/ldw/composition.swf?level=PJHQIHAIHAIHAIHAIHJHJHAIHAIHAIFLFLHJHAIHAIDNDNHAIHAIHAIHAIEgCIGKGhIHAIHAIEMEMEMHAIHAIHAIHAIHAIGIAIHAIHAIHAIHAIHAIFLFLHAIHAIHAIHAIHAIHAIHAIHAIHAIHAIHYPK

Level Two: http://jonathanwhiting.com/coding/ldw/composition.swf?level=PJFQBIHAIHAIHJHJHAIHAIFJAIFJAIHAIHAIDJCIDJCIHAgHAgBhEgHAgHAgCOGIAIHAIHAIHAIEICIHAIHAICIEIHAIAIGIHAIHAIHAIFIBIHAIHAIHAIDIDIDIDIHAIHAIHAICOCOHAIHAIEIAIAIEMBIBIAIAIBIFIBPBIHAIHYIGKG

Level Three: http://jonathanwhiting.com/coding/ldw/composition.swf?level=PKDIAIAJBIEJAICQBJAPIAIFJAIALAJAIDIAJAIDIAJAIBKAJFgAPIAIHAIEiAIHAIEIAIAIEMHAIHAIGKGKHAIHAIHAIFLFLHAgHAgHAgEICgHAgHAgHAgHAgHAgDIDgHAgHAgHAgHAgJGgYIGgAIFIgAIGgAIGgAIGIAIGIAIDLAJFIBJEICJDIDLAIEIAIAIHAPK

Level Four: http://jonathanwhiting.com/coding/ldw/composition.swf?level=PJHQIHAIGhIHAIGhIHAIHAIEiAIHAIEIAIAIEMHAIHAIHAIHAIHAgHAgHAgHAgHAgFgBIHAIHAIFgAgIHAIHAIHAIHIgFJAgDJCgBJEgAIGgHAgHAgHAgHAgHAgHAgHAIHAgHAgHAgHAgCIEgHAIHAIHAIEICIBIFIGIAIHAICIEIBYIEPK

Final Level: http://jonathanwhiting.com/coding/ldw/composition.swf?level=PJDQDIHAIHAIHAIGKHAIGhIHAIGhICiAIAIChBIAIHAIGIAIHAIDIAjDgDgDgBIAgDgDgDgAjDgChDKAJHAIHAIHAIHgIGhIGIgIGhIHgIEgCIEhAJHAIHAIHgIDICgIEgAIgIHgIHgOCIBYIEICIAIAIAICIAMCIDgICIgDICMAICICIAICIAICICIAICICIAIhAICICIAICKAIgICIAIAIgIHgJiJiI


I tried to make each level harder than the previous one, and make all of them have a 'climax' by 2/3 of the level, after that it pretty much goes "downhill" and even if there are tricky parts the level stops being too deadly, except the final one.

Also I put a long run towards the door so you can anticipate the fuck yeah!
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Nitro Crate
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« Reply #109 on: July 18, 2010, 04:09:43 PM »

Here is my level.

I wanted to make one before trying everyone else's first. I'll go check out the other creations now. :D

Edit: Wgat, mine is nowhere near difficult as some of you guys have made.  Cheesy
« Last Edit: July 18, 2010, 04:22:58 PM by Nitro Crate » Logged
Almost
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« Reply #110 on: July 18, 2010, 07:59:41 PM »

You're all crazy.

This is a reasonable level.
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A game of mine: Ten Second War
Geti
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« Reply #111 on: July 18, 2010, 08:40:47 PM »

The first of the 'low jumps' is pretty brutal, in fact, after the warm up section all of the rest is very hard indeed.  The increase in difficulty is very very steep, and I think the level would have benefitted from longer dwelling on the easy bit.
I wasn't sure I liked the middle section that much.  Something about the layout made it feel like there was one intended route, and the others were there by mistake.  This wasn't so much from the difficulty which was quite similar in each path, but because of the appearance of a natural path (I traced it in Goals).  I guess mentioning this is a little opposed to my "only consider difficulty message" I gave, but it feels worth mentioning anyway.
Despite my misgivings, there's some nice stuff in here.  I'm particularly impressed by the interestingly difficult challenges at the end.
Hahah, the only bits of mine I'd call anywhere near "brutal" were at the end (the last jump, climbing the tower and the last long jump over the spikes are the ones that come to mind). Regardless, cheers for the comments about appearances etc. Normally I'd be able to indicate them with pickups or whatever, but I should have adapted to the occasion.
You're all crazy.
This is a reasonable level.
Too easy, imho. Beat it first time, and the difficulty curve was fairly haphazard (though I liked the simmer down at the end), but it did look good. Felt like it would be a early/midgame level in a progressive game.

Tim, your one is nuts.
Have to go off to work now <_< might have time for playing more of these tonight, it's good practice.
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Jonathan Whiting
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« Reply #112 on: July 18, 2010, 11:45:31 PM »

R to reset would be nice, as well as E to switch between edit and test mode.

In.  Reset only resets player whilst playing not editor whilst editing (otherwise it's too easy to lose your work).

"Play" and "Edit" gives a larger clickable area than "P" and "E".

Done.

For this challenge specifically, a checkpoint tile might be nice.

Added (the thing with a stick on it).



Another fantastic set, a really smooth increase of difficulty throughout.  I would say that the challenges of two and three got a bit repetitive, I am sure there are other non "jump x squares increasingly precisely" challenges of appropriate difficulty that could have been included instead.  Otherwise I'm having trouble picking holes in them.

Haven't played through all your levels yet, but I really like the beginning of this one. Asking the player to vault the harmless obstacles, then the harmful ones arranged in the same pattern.

I think it's pretty clever is all :S

It's a really good trick, very worthwhile.  When using it you do need to be careful that you aren't going to fatigue the player too much though (if you introduce every single mechanic in this way it can tend to drag).


Quite challenging throughout, but it does have a really compelling difficulty curve to it.  It's not a flat rise, but ducks up and down a bit whilst it generally pushes harder.  Excellent!

It's not something that just applies to you, more of a general note, but I think it's worth mentioning that the low-spiked-ceiling jumps are a bit risky from a level design point of view.  Some people (who are otherwise strong gamers) struggle to tap keys for very short periods of time, and these will likely find such areas *highly* frustrating.  At very least they ought to be used with considerable moderation.

Here is mine that is way too hard. I will try and do one that ramps better later today, though. I just had fun with this one. It has two paths, which are about the same difficulty, and are both beatable, though I haven't done either in one run. I've beaten them with cheater checkpoints.

Oh god it hurts


Oh my.

P.S. I think I've found a bug in the code. On the very top level, the collision doesn't work the same as on normal levels.

Hmm, yes, does look like the behaviour is odd there.  I'll have a look into it when I get the chance.  In the meantime try not to use the top like that (as a general rule it is bad to have the player off-screen unless you are putting in secrets anyway).

I am wondering: do per-level difficulty curves really work that well if you don't have checkpoints? It forces you to replay over and over again the bits you can do before you can get to the part of the level that's actually killing you.

Sure they do, but the average difficulty might have to be easier than it has been so far this exercise.  Checkpoints will help though.

What if instead you put the difficult parts at the start and then made the level get easier as you get further? (The assumption being that previous levels have taught you what you need to know already.)
My level: Inverse difficulty. It is quite clearly not a good example of level design.

Ow ow ow.  I can't even make it out of the start.

Can I suggest that right click be delete the current tile? It'd be a lot easier than selecting the empty one and going over it.
Unfortunately you can't use right-click in Flash but something similar might be click=delete when ctrl is held down.

Use the number key shortcuts, then all the tiles types are immediately under your fingers.


Given it was the very first spike in your set it's quite unpleasantly placed.  The difficulty spikes considerably.


Again difficulty spikes a little much at the first spikes.


This element gave the levels a very nice flavour, especially when applied as consistently as you managed throughout.  A really very good effort.

Here is my level.

I wanted to make one before trying everyone else's first. I'll go check out the other creations now. :D

Edit: Wgat, mine is nowhere near difficult as some of you guys have made.  Cheesy

It *is* still pretty brutal though.  The progression seems reasonable.

You're all crazy.

This is a reasonable level.

I'd still say it is hard-ish actually, but enjoyable, what curve were you aiming for difficulty wise?

Hahah, the only bits of mine I'd call anywhere near "brutal" were at the end (the last jump, climbing the tower and the last long jump over the spikes are the ones that come to mind).

You could really do with adjusting your view of difficulty a bit then.  Bear in mind that typically when designing levels you are making them for other people rather than yourself, and typically those people will be a lot less good at platform games than the average games designer.  Particularly it was the difficult low-but-long jump after a previously easy warm up that spiked the difficulty high out of nowhere.  Such large increases in difficulty are brutal no matter how difficult the high point is.

You're all crazy.
This is a reasonable level.
Too easy, imho. Beat it first time, and the difficulty curve was fairly haphazard (though I liked the simmer down at the end), but it did look good. Felt like it would be a early/midgame level in a progressive game.

There is genuinely no such thing as too easy imho.  Levels don't need to be difficult to be compelling (see kyntt), and this level is a long way from being as easy as it could potentially be.
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Geti
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« Reply #113 on: July 19, 2010, 12:28:05 AM »

When the object of discussion is difficulty, and you're designing for a skill based platform game (we're not focussing on aesthetics or mood or anything else, just difficulty, so that's the assumption) I think there is such a thing as too easy.
Knytt isn't skill based, it's based on the fact that it has a delicious feel and that the player wants to explore. N, on the other hand, is skill based, and the levels get bloody devilish towards the end as they should. The userlevels are usually at a fairly high level of challenge as well.

HOWEVER I agree that my difficulty perception has been skewed horribly, and I should adjust it. For example, I liked your example level a lot, even though I found it very easy (I was warned about the last jump, so I adjusted my starting point and cleared it first go, and it was a good feeling), I just think that things like this should be challenging. I just haven't found the right balance of fun and challenge in this game though, no biggie. I might do another one later as a relaxation thing.
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Jonathan Whiting
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« Reply #114 on: July 19, 2010, 01:04:07 AM »

Whilst we are ignoring aesthetics for the moment, this shouldn't be taken to mean we should be making our levels harder to compensate for the lost aesthetic interest.  Understanding the distinctions between "really ridiculously easy", and "pretty easy" are just as important as understanding the differences between "very hard" and "extremely hard".  More-so in fact, as players will be seeing the easiest stuff first.

Don't be afraid to make levels which are boring here.  The aim of these exercises isn't to make high quality levels, but to learn things about the level design process that we can use to make higher quality levels afterwards.
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Geti
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« Reply #115 on: July 19, 2010, 01:19:32 AM »

True, thanks for being frank. I'll try to get one done in a bit, but I might just sleep. We'll see how it works out, I'm keen to do some level design (I haven't done much for my own games, I usually take the procedural route).
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Dustin Smith
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« Reply #116 on: July 19, 2010, 07:59:19 AM »

Joe Gribs: Your level's difficulty curve was just shy of perfect. Awesome job man.

Nitro Crate: I liked how your level never repeated any jumps but still had a nice curve to it. I know it wasn't part of the exercise but I dug the aesthetics of it as well.

Jonathon: In hindsight I should have introduced a new element for that third level. With the checkpoints present now I might try a second batch of levels, if time permits.
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« Reply #117 on: July 19, 2010, 09:49:00 AM »

Why don't you guys make use of checkpoints?

Your worst nightmare.
The same level with less checkpoints.
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Draknek
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« Reply #118 on: July 19, 2010, 09:57:32 AM »

I made another level subverting the normal difficulty curve: this time if you fail a challenge you may fall down to an area filled with checkpoints. The only way to continue from where you were is to treat these checkpoints as spikes and make your way to the nearest spike (for the purposes of this level, the reset button does not exist).

Damn checkpoints!

Not massively happy with it. Perhaps next I will try making a level which actually follows the theme.

P.S. Inverse difficulty with checkpoints: now actually feasible, though that first fall is still ridiculously difficult.
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Lord Tim
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« Reply #119 on: July 19, 2010, 11:51:00 AM »

Better difficulty curve

Checkpoints make the horrible level much easier
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