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TIGSource ForumsDeveloperDesignLevel Design Workshop - #3 Structural Atmosphere
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Jonathan Whiting
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« Reply #220 on: September 07, 2010, 02:54:54 PM »

Ahhhhh, it took me an age to work out why you were both describing enemy problems that I couldn't reproduce.  Turns out I'd implemented the edit button with a bug that the 'e' key method of switching mode (that I generally use when making games myself, and is therefore intuitive) didn't have.

So I've fixed that problem.  Also, whilst I find the edit-mode player movement very helpful myself if it's just confusing people there's no point, so I changed that to.

The build with these things is in the same place.  Hopefully it'll be a bit nicer to do stuff with now.

Too tired for decent critique right now, so I'll save that stuff for tomorrow.  Oh, and in case it isn't obvious you can press up/down to scroll up and down screens.
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Dustin Smith
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« Reply #221 on: September 07, 2010, 09:54:54 PM »

I was waiting for a fix as well.  Embarrassed If I have enough energy after work tomorrow I'm totally going to try my hand at this.
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Draknek
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« Reply #222 on: September 08, 2010, 04:13:52 PM »

 Facepalm I thought there was only one screen because trying to go up got the player stuck on an invisible ceiling. Didn't even try going down... (my theory for why is a combination of 1) the starting level having a floor and 2) the game mechanics mean you always want to be going up)

On a tangential note:
I think this is within the scope of this thread? I made a one-level platformer recently: Terrible Tiny Traps. I'd really appreciate any level design criticism that anyone has.
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jlorenow
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« Reply #223 on: September 08, 2010, 08:21:42 PM »

Being able to move the player in edit mode is more confusing than anything, it's not really any more useful here than it would have been for the previous platforming challenges.

The enemies only show up when you load from a level string: if you just add them from the editor they don't appear in play mode.

Here's my attempt. Not sure it does a great job at teaching anything, more it just has puzzles that use the mechanics one by one.

I didn't realize that shots wrapped until I played this, so I guess your level does a good job of teaching mechanics. Hand Thumbs Up Right

I couldn't figure out exactly what the red blocks did, so I just tried to use them to draw attention to things

http://jonathanwhiting.com/coding/ldw/04teaching.swf?level=QoQAIALHHHHHHHHHDIAIBIHHHHHHHHHCIBIAgIHHHHHHHHHBIFIHHHHHHHHHBIBICIHHHHHHHHHBQBIBJHHHHHHHHHDYICIHHHHHHHHHDYICIHHHHHHHHHAIBYICIHHHHHHHHHBIAYICIHHHHHHHHHBIBICIHHHHHHHHHBIAIBIAIHHHHHHHHHBIAICYIHHHHHHHHHA4IAIAIAoQHHHHHHHHHKAIAISHHHHHHHHH
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AndroidRudy
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« Reply #224 on: September 09, 2010, 12:48:42 PM »

Made Ten levels.. Tell me what you guys think.


http://jonathanwhiting.com/coding/ldw/sokoban.swf?level=AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABBAAAAAAABACBAAAAAABDABAAAAAABAABAAAAABEAABAAAAAABBBAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
http://jonathanwhiting.com/coding/ldw/sokoban.swf?level=AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABBBBBBAAABEAAADABAABEAAAAABAAABADABBBAAABAAAACBAAAABBBBBAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
http://jonathanwhiting.com/coding/ldw/sokoban.swf?level=AAAAAAAAAAAAAAABBBAAAAAABEEEBAAAABAAADBAAAABADAABAAAABABDBAAAAABAAAABAAAABAAACBAAAAABBBBAAAAAAAAAAAA
http://jonathanwhiting.com/coding/ldw/sokoban.swf?level=AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABBBBBAAAABEEEDABAAABEBBAABAAABAAADABAAABAADABAAAAABBAAABBAAAABADACBAAAABAABBB
http://jonathanwhiting.com/coding/ldw/sokoban.swf?level=AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABBBBAAAAABAEEEBAAAABAABBAAAABBDDBAAAABAAADABAAABAAAACBAAAABBBBBAAAAAAAAAAAAA
http://jonathanwhiting.com/coding/ldw/sokoban.swf?level=AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABBBBBBAAABAAABAEBAABADADAEBAABAADADEBAABCBAAAEBAAABBBBBBAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
http://jonathanwhiting.com/coding/ldw/sokoban.swf?level=AABAAAAABBABCBAABBAAABABABEEAAABABABEEAAABABBBBBDBABAAAAADABABABDBABABABAAAADAABABAAAAAAABAABBBBBBBB
http://jonathanwhiting.com/coding/ldw/sokoban.swf?level=AAAAAAAAAAAABBBAAAAAABAAABBBBAABCDDBBAABABAADAAAABAABBBBAAABAAAAABABBAAAAABBAABAAAABEEEABAAAAABBBBAA
http://jonathanwhiting.com/coding/ldw/sokoban.swf?level=AAAABBBAAAAAABEEEBAAABBBEEEBAAABAAADAABAABADDADABAABCABBAABAABBBADDABAAAABAAAABAAAABAAABAAAAABBBBAAA
http://jonathanwhiting.com/coding/ldw/sokoban.swf?level=AAAABBBBAAAABBBAABBAAABADCEEBAAABABAEEBAAABABDBBBAAABABAAABAAABAAADABAAABBADAABAAAABAABBBAAAABBBBAAA
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AndroidRudy
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« Reply #225 on: September 09, 2010, 12:59:08 PM »

@ Nitro Crate i really enjoyed your levels, they were nice and elegant but really made me feel challenged at some points.

@ Baconman the way you set up your levels initially is really cool. I especially enjoyed level 6, your early ones were quite simple but effective.

@ Captain_404 Your levels i found the most challenging and creative. I really like your use of the pre - "homed" boulders. I think those are really key to making a challenging sokoban puzzle.
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Jonathan Whiting
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« Reply #226 on: September 10, 2010, 10:25:48 AM »


Well, it does work in a sort of forceful "you can only do this" sort of a way, it isn't exactly gently easing.  I'll admit a large part of this is probably me not giving you good enough tools at the time.

Here's my attempt. Not sure it does a great job at teaching anything, more it just has puzzles that use the mechanics one by one.

I suspect it would work as long as you're expecting your players to be happy working things out.  As in, set it up as a puzzle game.

I couldn't figure out exactly what the red blocks did, so I just tried to use them to draw attention to things

They *are* purely decorative, so that's not a bad call.  It was a bit difficult to realise the relevance in such a small level, but it'd make a good strategy on a longer level/full game.


I like the use of the bottom enemy to teach reflection, though I might have put 'mirror's on both sides of him, just to make sure.  The 4 enemies seem a bit overkill, but were certainly demonstrative.  The final jump seemed like a bit of a large logical jump (as it was in my original game).

On a tangential note:
I think this is within the scope of this thread? I made a one-level platformer recently: Terrible Tiny Traps. I'd really appreciate any level design criticism that anyone has.

Don't have time to study in detail right now, but general text-dump first impression..  It felt very difficult, I was drawn over towards the bottom right, and then got to a state that I couldn't progress past (big moving platform, followed by small moving platform and killer 'minefield').  Part of the problem was I found the jump felt very unnatural, but I wonder if the level design wasn't a bit unforgiving too.  I suspect some of the other equally reachable areas were probably easier, but I wasn't drawn to them first.  The relative accessability of areas may therefore be worth considering (make sure they nail the basics before they can get at the advanced stuff).

With such a small space you don't have much scope to let the player mess around and learn the jumping feel etc. but I'd have certainly welcomed a bit more of an intro.

Made Ten levels.. Tell me what you guys think.

Welcome :D

I'm afraid I'm shooting off on a climbing trip now, so I don't have time to playthrough your set right, will definitely do so when I get back though.
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Draknek
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« Reply #227 on: September 13, 2010, 07:16:09 AM »

Made Ten levels.. Tell me what you guys think.

http://jonathanwhiting.com/coding/ldw/sokoban.swf?level=AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABBAAAAAAABACBAAAAAABDABAAAAAABAABAAAAABEAABAAAAAABBBAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
http://jonathanwhiting.com/coding/ldw/sokoban.swf?level=AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABBBBBBAAABEAAADABAABEAAAAABAAABADABBBAAABAAAACBAAAABBBBBAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
http://jonathanwhiting.com/coding/ldw/sokoban.swf?level=AAAAAAAAAAAAAAABBBAAAAAABEEEBAAAABAAADBAAAABADAABAAAABABDBAAAAABAAAABAAAABAAACBAAAAABBBBAAAAAAAAAAAA
http://jonathanwhiting.com/coding/ldw/sokoban.swf?level=AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABBBBBAAAABEEEDABAAABEBBAABAAABAAADABAAABAADABAAAAABBAAABBAAAABADACBAAAABAABBB
http://jonathanwhiting.com/coding/ldw/sokoban.swf?level=AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABBBBAAAAABAEEEBAAAABAABBAAAABBDDBAAAABAAADABAAABAAAACBAAAABBBBBAAAAAAAAAAAAA
http://jonathanwhiting.com/coding/ldw/sokoban.swf?level=AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABBBBBBAAABAAABAEBAABADADAEBAABAADADEBAABCBAAAEBAAABBBBBBAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
http://jonathanwhiting.com/coding/ldw/sokoban.swf?level=AABAAAAABBABCBAABBAAABABABEEAAABABABEEAAABABBBBBDBABAAAAADABABABDBABABABAAAADAABABAAAAAAABAABBBBBBBB
http://jonathanwhiting.com/coding/ldw/sokoban.swf?level=AAAAAAAAAAAABBBAAAAAABAAABBBBAABCDDBBAABABAADAAAABAABBBBAAABAAAAABABBAAAAABBAABAAAABEEEABAAAAABBBBAA
http://jonathanwhiting.com/coding/ldw/sokoban.swf?level=AAAABBBAAAAAABEEEBAAABBBEEEBAAABAAADAABAABADDADABAABCABBAABAABBBADDABAAAABAAAABAAAABAAABAAAAABBBBAAA
http://jonathanwhiting.com/coding/ldw/sokoban.swf?level=AAAABBBBAAAABBBAABBAAABADCEEBAAABABAEEBAAABABDBBBAAABABAAABAAABAAADABAAABBADAABAAAABAABBBAAAABBBBAAA


My thoughts:
Level 2 isn't as compact as it could be (which was one of the stated aims for the sokoban challenge).
Level 4 is less challenging than level 3.
Levels 7 and 8 can be done by moving one block at a time which makes for an uninteresting puzzle.
That throws the difficulty curve a bit so it's an unusual shape.

Don't have time to study in detail right now, but general text-dump first impression..  It felt very difficult, I was drawn over towards the bottom right, and then got to a state that I couldn't progress past (big moving platform, followed by small moving platform and killer 'minefield').  Part of the problem was I found the jump felt very unnatural, but I wonder if the level design wasn't a bit unforgiving too.  I suspect some of the other equally reachable areas were probably easier, but I wasn't drawn to them first.  The relative accessability of areas may therefore be worth considering (make sure they nail the basics before they can get at the advanced stuff).

With such a small space you don't have much scope to let the player mess around and learn the jumping feel etc. but I'd have certainly welcomed a bit more of an intro.
The bottom right was in fact the only part of the level you can get to initially: the rest of the level is locked until you've been there first. But it's not significantly easier than the rest of the level so your points still stand. I've tweaked that area slightly: nothing major but hopefully it will now be a less frustrating experience.

The difficulty of the whole level is in general fairly difficult: I found that with the pixel-resolution positioning there weren't a whole lot of interesting challenges between too easy and too hard, and (as I generally do) I leaned towards being too hard.
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Dustin Smith
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« Reply #228 on: September 20, 2010, 12:56:02 PM »

i'm kinda sad that this hasn't had much steam since the second exercise. would anybody be down with constructing some spelunky level sets that teach a specific mechanic? the editor is simple, but it comes with the caveat that the designer has to have unlocked the tunnels for an area to be able to create stages with it's set pieces. someone could upload a version that has this included, at least.

this also restricts mac and linux users, so i dunno. just tossing an idea out in hopes to breathe some life back into this.  Shrug
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Geti
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« Reply #229 on: October 20, 2010, 11:09:35 PM »

Spelunky works under wine, so 32bit linux users could be included. Something like N would probably be more suitable though.. I'm unsure.
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baconman
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« Reply #230 on: October 20, 2010, 11:14:53 PM »

I'm still following what I can of this (and many) thread(s) here, but my job has kept my balls to the wall for the past 2-3 months solid! I haven't even had time to futz together my own projects offline, let alone keep up with all of this. I do hope to see it resurge and continue, however! Smiley
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snowyowl
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« Reply #231 on: October 21, 2010, 02:32:28 PM »

Here's my attempt at teaching mechanics.
One screen isn't much to work with, but I did what I could. In order: meeting the enemy (and shooting him), mirrors, wrapping, and getting shot to bounce higher. The last one was a challenge to explain, but having the enemy show you what to do worked well. The red blocks are placed to make it clear what you're supposed to do at this point.
(You know, this one would look nicer if it had horizontal girders.
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Kuppo
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« Reply #232 on: October 22, 2010, 12:02:04 PM »

Great work on this workshop, jonathan.  Looking forward to future exercises.

Composition:  http://jonathanwhiting.com/coding/ldw/composition.swf?level=PLBIAYIgJBQIBgAJCIgCJDIgAgJCIDJCIDJCIDJDhBJCICgJCIBgAJCICgJDgCJDgCJCIDJCIBgAJCICgJDgCJCgBhJBIgDJBIAgCJBIBgBJEIAgJiBgBJEgBJEgBJDICJDIBgJDICJBiCJEIBJEIAgJEIBJFgAJFgAJDhBJFgAJFgAJEIBJEIBJEIAgJDgCJDICJCgCgJCgCgJCICgJBgEJBgEJBgCgAJBIDgJBgEJAhDoJGgJBkPL
Not particularly great...

Atmosphere(Space Station):  http://jonathanwhiting.com/coding/ldw/02atmosphere.swf?level=ANFJCIFIDIFICQIFIDIFJBJEJDJDIFIDJDJEJBJFIDIFIDIFIDIFIDIEKBOHHHKBOAIDIFICgIEJDIHAKGKHAIHCIHCPJHDLCMCJCICLCMHDKCNAICJEKCNHHPDPCgIAIDIDLCIHBNBJFIDIEPBIDJAJBIDICIBIFIDIFJBJCPDIHCJHCKEKCJFJCJCMCLHDMCLBJCJDJCJEIDIFIDIFIDIFIDIEKBOHHHHDJCgNHHHHDKBOAIDIFIDIFIDIEKBOHHHHHHHHHMBMCIDIFIDIFIDIFIDICMBMHHHHDJDNHHHHDJBPIDIFIDIFJAgPHHGPFIDIEKBJHFKHGIHCJBIGPICPICJHBIHHHHHHHHDNDJEICYIFJCIFNA
I'm fairly happy with this one.

Teaching(Minimalistic Attempt):  http://jonathanwhiting.com/coding/ldw/04teaching.swf?level=PAIHHHHHHHHHPYIHHHHHHHHHPAIHHHHHHHHHMDIHHHHHHHHHMDIHHHHHHHHHMDIHHHHHHHHHMAgQoIHHHHHHHHHMDIHHHHHHHHHMCYIHHHHHHHHHMDIHHHHHHHHHPYIHHHHHHHHHPAIHHHHHHHHHPAIHHHHHHHHHPAIHHHHHHHHHPAIHHHHHHHHH
Meh, seems like a more fleshed out level would work better.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2010, 12:11:24 PM by Kuppo » Logged
ella guro
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« Reply #233 on: October 25, 2010, 01:03:51 AM »

ok, so I might've gone a bit too far towards challenge and skimped on the atmosphere, but here's my level. I tried to at least pace it decently (for example, there are no save points until the 5th or 6th screen, when stuff starts to get harder). I kinda subvert that, though.

My original concept was to make the player have to die to beat the level, but then I found out that you have to touch the checkpoints for them to activate, which made the idea impossible. I was really bummed out about that. But by the time I figured that out I was a few screens in so I decided to finish anyway. Congrats to anyone who makes it through without getting frustrated.

edit: sorry for the billionth edit, I just wanna elaborate on what I was thinking with this level.

The first screen is one of those "see the end of the level from the beginning" scenarios that I've seen other people do and I really like because at the end of the level it's kind of a reward to be on the other side. The second screen gives you two options for places to go, I'm assuming that most people will move right, which leads to a little jumping puzzle and then, abruptly, to death on the next screen. I thought it would be a good idea to trick the player early on, especially because you tend to expect death to be coming on the next screen when you've just been through a little jumping puzzle. It's a bit mean of a trick early on in a level, but it can be avoided...I mostly wanted to reward the person who decides to go left, since that's a less common choice.

After going left, there's one longish jump on the first screen and then a leap of faith on the second screen. This is the first time that you have to take a leap of faith without knowing what's coming next so it's followed with a little break: two screens of what the player previously saw, this time on top of the level. I chose to just let both of those have no jumping puzzles so the player could either see that they were rewarded for going left, or to finally be on the right track and see their previous failure. Both of those screens also have weird pseudo block art in them that I wish I could have found more space for after that.

On the fifth screen, there's a few descending jumps, and then you have the choice either go right or jump left. If you go right, unless you go left quickly you get stuck and have to fall down a pit and die. If you go left, you discover for the first time that you can jump above the blocks to get to the next screen.

The sixth screen has the first save point, but you have a choice to go to it or try to do some jumps. The jumps let you shortcut another frustrating screen that you have to go through if you get the save point, but there's also a risk of you dying and having to start the level over again instead of from the save point. So here, there are two choices and both of them are acceptable. I like this part a little better than what I did previously, just punishing the player for going one way.

Once again, you need to take a leap of faith to the next screen, and another leap to get to one side of the screen to the other. This begins the last major jumping puzzle. I let you save there because this part is harder. The first side of the screen involves jumping back and forth from one screen to another to get to the top of a structure. You can also do this without having to jump from one block to another, but I thought it would be reasonable to give the option of using the blocks on this first puzzle. Once you're through there, you go to the next screen which is just a column 1-thick wide of blocks with a save point. Here, you don't have any blocks and you have to jump really carefully to get to the top. This part is frustrating, but it's the last jumping puzzle and there's a save right there so there's less punishment for screwing up.

Once you make it through that puzzle, you have to walk above the level once again, this time for a whole screen. The walking takes you back to the first screen and sends you right down a slide to the exit. You can choose to jump over the part with the slide and walk back to the beginning of the level, but there's little point in doing it. I just thought it would be a nice little easter egg to have it be possible.

Anyway, I'm sorry if I went into way too much detail here, I'm just trying to explain my thought processes because I thought it might be interesting to someone. Hopefully it is.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2010, 02:09:36 AM by ella guro » Logged
snowyowl
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« Reply #234 on: October 25, 2010, 04:59:49 AM »

ella guro:That one was a bit hard. But it was a very nice touch to have the ending screen be identical to the beginning screen.
Not very clear on what kind of atmosphere you're trying to create.

Kuppo: Nice work. Loved the "atmosphere" one, found the "teaching" one a bit too minimalistic, but okay.
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ella guro
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« Reply #235 on: October 25, 2010, 07:33:02 AM »

ella guro:That one was a bit hard. But it was a very nice touch to have the ending screen be identical to the beginning screen.
Not very clear on what kind of atmosphere you're trying to create.

I was mainly just trying out a bunch of gameplay mechanic ideas. There isn't really an atmosphere to speak of. I think I'm going to do try to do a more atmospheric level next, because I liked Kuppo's space station level a lot.
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AndrewFM
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« Reply #236 on: October 29, 2010, 12:21:05 PM »

I'm going to take a shot at these exercises. Seems like fun Smiley

[Edit: Check a couple posts below for improved versions of these]

Composition

I was trying to go for a sense of flow in this level. What I mean by that is that by the time you master the level, you'll be able to run through it without ever stopping. You can just hold right, and make it to the goal without ever having to slow down for obstacles.

Atmosphere

My theme was "Outer Space/Asteroid Belt".

Teaching

Your goal is to get to the flashing light in the upper-right corner.

Right off the bat, before the player even gets a chance to do anything, they'll be knocked upwards by an enemy bullet, the enemies will kill each other, and a single stray bullet will bounce around off the mirrors below. Essentially, the player learns almost everything they need to know about the game instantaneously as they start. However, the second half of the level then makes the player execute those actions themselves, making sure that they understood everything that was shown to them at the start.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2010, 02:44:15 PM by AndrewFM » Logged
Draknek
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« Reply #237 on: October 29, 2010, 02:14:41 PM »

These are all fairly solid. Some hopefully useful feedback:

Composition

I was trying to go for a sense of flow in this level. What I mean by that is that by the time you master the level, you'll be able to run through it without ever stopping. You can just hold right, and make it to the goal without ever having to slow down for obstacles.
The problem with holding right constantly is that after respawning at the checkpoint you almost immediately run into a spike. I think moving them apart would improve that feeling you were going for.

Atmosphere

My theme was "Outer Space/Asteroid Belt".
I liked the placement of the goal relative to the easiest path through the level. Personally I would probably have put the checkpoint just before the end of that bottom path though.

Teaching

Your goal is to get to the flashing light in the upper-right corner.

Right off the bat, before the player even gets a chance to do anything, they'll be knocked upwards by an enemy bullet, the enemies will kill each other, and a single stray bullet will bounce around off the mirrors below. Essentially, the player learns almost everything they need to know about the game instantaneously as they start. However, the second half of the level then makes the player execute those actions themselves, making sure that they understood everything that was shown to them at the start.
I don't think this does a great job at teaching the mechanics.

General rule of thumb: anything that happens immediately when a level begins will not be picked up on and will only serve to confuse. By the time the player has worked out who they are controlling, everything has already happened and they're wondering what that moving blue thing down the bottom is.

Then the next two puzzles require the player to have a detailed understanding of how the game mechanics interact with each other and to use that knowledge to execute a multi-step plan.

I already knew the rules of the game and it took me several attempts to make both jumps.
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« Reply #238 on: October 29, 2010, 02:41:51 PM »

Thanks for the feedback Grin. I made very small modifications to the first two, and completely redid the Teaching exercise.

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« Reply #239 on: November 06, 2010, 04:51:33 PM »

Here's my attempt at structural atmosphere. I call it "Canabalt homage". I realised you can get quite a bit of a game's story across with nothing but level design, especially if it reinforces other aspects of the story (in this case, just the title). I could probably have done more if I'd had more screens to play with, but then again maybe not.

AndrewFM, I find your "atmosphere" level rather unfair. Once I know which path is the right one to take, I have to go back and start again. This would be slightly alleviated if there was a checkpoint right before the path splits, but really, I don't think the path should split at all. The only way something like that is fair is if the player realises he has made a mistake and knows where, and makes sure not to do it again.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2010, 05:00:11 PM by snowyowl » Logged
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