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[ghostwheel]

What in the world are you talking about? 

    * Windows was never a closed platform
    * Apple isn't a monopoly -- it's a relatively small player in a big market, with strong competitors.
    * Apple isn't behaving in an anti-competitive fashion, except for having made a popular product.


Again, if you're going to condemn Apple on the basis of having a closed platform (iOS), then you have to also condemn Nintendo, Sony, and Microsoft;  they're doing exactly -- exactly -- the same things on the Wii, the Xbox 360, and the PS3 (As well as on the GameCube, N64, Super NES, DSi, DS, GameBoy Advance, GameBoy, Xbox, PS2, PS1, and PSP.  And Sega did too, on the Dreamcast, Genesis/MegaDrive, and the Master System.  And NEC did too, with the TurboGrafix, and their other early consoles.  And they were -- and are -- far, far worse about it than anything Apple's done).

I didn't say Windows was a closed system but it is a proprietary system. And you're right Apple isn't a monopoly, yet. They are working on it. I hope they fail. And yes, they are behaving anti-competitive - the EU certainly thinks their practices are worth looking into. And yes, I do condemn the game consoles - I don't like what they are doing either. Also, iOS isn't merely a game platform, it's a general computing platform as well. Worst of all, Apple has created a successful model. A really BAD model that some people want to follow (Windows Phone 7 for example). Open is good, closed is bad.

[Gnarf]

Plenty of fart apps were written in ObjC, so the tools have no effect on app quality.

Apple (like all closed system managers) don't approve software on the basis of being fun games or useful tools.  That sort of thing is left for the market to decide.  Apple's (and Nintendo's, and Sony's, and Microsoft's) job is to make sure that technically, the apps are up to scratch.  That is, that they don't unduly drain the battery, that they don't compromise the device, that they aren't likely to induce epileptic seizures, etc.  This is what people mean when they talk about "quality" in this context.  From this point of view, a well-coded native app will definitely be higher quality for a small battery-powered device than any Flash file would.  You have only to run a Flash game on an Android phone to understand why this is true.

That's not really true. Apple (like all closed system managers) have put themselves in the rather funky situation of having to either approve of or ban each application for their device. And so they cannot be cool dudes any longer. That doesn't just go for how the thing was written, how much battery it drains and such. It's also about whether or not Apple considers the application sinful. Whether it is profitable for Apple to be associated with the political messages conveyed in the application. Etc. etc. (same goes for Nintendo, and Sony, and Microsoft)

Turns out Apple think farting is better than fucking. Bonkers.

[bateleur]

What development options, specifically, are you saying aren't possible on other platforms, but are available (but prevented by Apple) on the iPhone?

Anything which falls foul of their new terms and conditions. Flash being the famous example.

But no, I'm not talking about what is or is not possible on other platforms. I'm talking about technology which exists right now and for which no work is required. Can you think of another example of a platform holder deliberately disabling viable technologies?

What lies?

Concerning motive. He tries to pretend that Apple's policy has something to do with technology, whereas in reality it's all business.

[dto1138]

Hi, someone asked why I don't come out as against PS3, Xbox, and the others. This is a good question and hints at a future article: Curated Computing is about applying the proprietary video game console model to computing in general, with mandatory digital enforcement controls at every step.

[Perrin]

Hi, someone asked why I don't come out as against PS3, Xbox, and the others. This is a good question and hints at a future article: Curated Computing is about applying the proprietary video game console model to computing in general, with mandatory digital enforcement controls at every step.

You could always just discuss it here. But as I've already laid out my suspicion is you are attempting to drum up traffic. I know that's me being rude and I'm sorry but I think you're using this forum as an advertising venue.

And yes, I do condemn the game consoles - I don't like what they are doing either.

So at this point when Microsoft, Apple and all the consoles are bad does the argument become "everyone who isn't releasing for Linux is wrong" then?

[dto1138]

But as I've already laid out my suspicion is you are attempting to drum up traffic. I know that's me being rude and I'm sorry but I think you're using this forum as an advertising venue.

If you click my profile and check out the actual 20 or so posts I've made here in about 8 months, you'll see that I mostly just post a thread with screenshots and links when I make a game release, pretty much like everyone else, and then answer people's feedback. When we (Lisp games folks) started the Expo and its remix contest, where we were openly inviting people to particpate, I posted about it in Contests, like the other contests. If that is advertising, no one saw fit to accuse me of it at the time, despite linking directly to the game with screenshots. Anyway, I mention the contest in the essay because it is exactly what prompted me to look deeper into the iOS licensing issue in the first place and write the essay, and linked the essay here because it's an issue that affects independent game developers. Is this ok? You've made over 200 posts in roughly the same period (you joined about a month earlier) and you link to all your stuff too.

[mewse]

What development options, specifically, are you saying aren't possible on other platforms, but are available (but prevented by Apple) on the iPhone?

Anything which falls foul of their new terms and conditions. Flash being the famous example.

But no, I'm not talking about what is or is not possible on other platforms. I'm talking about technology which exists right now and for which no work is required. Can you think of another example of a platform holder deliberately disabling viable technologies?

Sure.  Flash is a famous example.  It's available for and is even embedded in many commercial console games, within the strict limitations imposed by the various hardware manufacturers  (Scaleform being the most well-known middleware providing embedded Flash support).  But you'll never see a game entirely implemented in flash released on those consoles.  The publishers wouldn't allow it.  Exactly like Apple.

Did you really not know that?

What lies?

Concerning motive. He tries to pretend that Apple's policy has something to do with technology, whereas in reality it's all business.

Oh, puh-lease.  You can't know what's in somebody else's head.  I asked for facts, not claims of wild psychic powers.

And for the last time, I asked for specific demonstrably false statements about iOS development requirements, to support your claims of "increasingly creative lies".   I'm not asking for vague generalisations and re-characterisations of what he's said -- I'm still waiting for you to provide those specific, demonstrably false lies (ideally, becoming larger and larger, to support your "increasingly" claim.  But at this point, I'd welcome anything solid that would give us something real to actually talk about).  

Your continued refusal to provide anything specific makes me suspect that you're talking out your arse.

[mewse]

That doesn't just go for how the thing was written, how much battery it drains and such. It's also about whether or not Apple considers the application sinful. Whether it is profitable for Apple to be associated with the political messages conveyed in the application. Etc. etc. (same goes for Nintendo, and Sony, and Microsoft)

Turns out Apple think farting is better than fucking. Bonkers.

This is called limiting liability.  Do you really think that Nintendo, Sony, Microsoft, or anyone else in charge of a closed platform would approve games about fucking?  Honestly?

Or are you just choosing to selectively ignore the companies that you like, in order to express a personal vendetta about Apple?

And so they cannot be cool dudes any longer.

Uh..  right.  Okay.  Whatever.  Let me know if you want to have a serious discussion someday in the future.

[bateleur]

Oh, puh-lease.  You can't know what's in somebody else's head. I asked for facts, not claims of wild psychic powers.

So if I take the view that Steve Jobs - boss of arguably the most successful premium phone manfacturer in the market - knows at least as much as I do about how to make money from his platform, you consider that psychic?

Your continued refusal to provide anything specific makes me suspect that you're talking out your arse.

Given that you've asked for specific examples of something other than what I was talking about, you shouldn't be too surprised.

[Gnarf]

This is called limiting liability.  Do you really think that Nintendo, Sony, Microsoft, or anyone else in charge of a closed platform would approve games about fucking?  Honestly?

Or are you just choosing to selectively ignore the companies that you like, in order to express a personal vendetta about Apple?

Lol? I said that the same goes for them other companies. Twice. Once in the text you quoted.

The point was that guys like Apple and Microsoft, on their open platforms can be all, if this guy wants to buy porn from this other guy, then he'll do that. None of their business. Which I would consider being a cool dude about things (re: that other comment of yours). They won't do that on their closed platforms, because allowing something might be seen as approving of or endorsing something. Or they just don't feel like selling porn themselves, and they sure as fuck aren't going to let anyone sell apps on their own, so there you go like.

The post I was responding to made it sound like they only bothered you about technical things like how it was written and such. And then I said that that's not really true. I did not say that Apple is evil sons of bitches while Microsoft is pretty rainbows. I am aware that it is a bit of a hassle releasing games for the Nintendo Entertainment System and that those robots were totally dudes in the arcades.

[Perrin]

If you click my profile and check out the actual 20 or so posts I've made here in about 8 months, you'll see that I mostly just post a thread with screenshots and links when I make a game release, pretty much like everyone else, and then answer people's feedback.

No I think a lot of other people get involved in the community outside of their own spam. It was because I noticed in the time since you've joined you've rarely stepped outside a thread about your own works that made me leap to this assumption.

When we (Lisp games folks) started the Expo and its remix contest, where we were openly inviting people to particpate, I posted about it in Contests, like the other contests. If that is advertising, no one saw fit to accuse me of it at the time, despite linking directly to the game with screenshots.

Yeah but even that contest to me seemed a bit desperate. Loads of people here post the source code to their games all the time and don't make a big deal about it. You spamming that here and on Slashdot (where it got assaulted quite badly) just looked like a desperate PR gimmick.

Anyway, I mention the contest in the essay because it is exactly what prompted me to look deeper into the iOS licensing issue in the first place and write the essay, and linked the essay here because it's an issue that affects independent game developers.

Well as I've already said I think people should really be a little more live and let live with their platform choices. I grow tired of being preached at why I'm wrong for developing for Windows, Mac or iPhone. And I still strongly believe you just posted a controversially titled article for hits.

Is this ok? You've made over 200 posts in roughly the same period (you joined about a month earlier) and you link to all your stuff too.

In those 200 posts you'll find I don't link to that many games. Most of the stuff I've made this year has not been spammed to TIGSource. The links you'll have found recently would be the Action 52 games I made for a TIGSource project not my own personal stuff I want downloads for.

Anyway I'm not a mod here, I'm not trying to back seat moderate. I'm in no position to tell you what you can and can't post. I brought it up because you've been here about as long as me and you only seem to post when you want publicity. And so that feeds into this argument because I think you posted this article in the same spirit you've always used TIGSource.

[mewse]

Your continued refusal to provide anything specific makes me suspect that you're talking out your arse.

Given that you've asked for specific examples of something other than what I was talking about, you shouldn't be too surprised.

Wait, so when I asked for specific examples of "increasingly creative lies" told by Steve Jobs, on the subject of development restrictions, that wasn't what you were talking about?

Really?

I mean, similar (and far worse) restrictions apply for those other closed platforms.

There's a difference of philosophy, though.

Most closed platforms require specific approaches because other options aren't available. The difference with Apple is that they are actively preventing efforts to get content onto their platform.

Despite all Steve Jobs' increasingly creative lies on the subject the reality is actually very simple

Golly gosh, it sure looks pretty clear to me that you just claimed Steve Jobs was telling increasingly creative lies on the subject of development restrictions.

Frankly, dude, at this point I don't think it's Steve Jobs who's telling the increasingly creative lies.  You're the one who's making unsubstantiated claims, and then refusing to back them up (and even denying that you made them) when pressed.

But whatever.  Have fun on the forums. 

[Ravine]

Steve Jobs eats a kitten each time a developer stops developing for iPhone. If you dont do it for you, do it for the kitties.

[Tycho Brahe]

Good we need less cats 

[dto1138]

Please stop accusing me of things and questioning my motivations. If that's your idea of community involvement, then I'd go so far to suggest that YOU are the one mis-using the forums, not me.

No I think a lot of other people get involved in the community outside of their own spam. It was because I noticed in the time since you've joined you've rarely stepped outside a thread about your own works that made me leap to this assumption.

Do you mean community involvement like running two different http://www.cliki.net/InternationalLispGameExpo2010 game development contests with 25+ entrants, only a few of whom are remixing my game? But if I link to them on the forums you'll say its spam and accuse me of using TIGsource? Why doesn't an opinion essay count as community involvement, either?

The community is bigger than this web forum my friend. No offense to anyone else here, but I don't spend a lot of time on forums because of the signal to noise ratio, this unprovable ad hominem attack on my motivations being a case in point. Stuff like this makes me not even want to read the forum in the first place.

Yeah but even that contest to me seemed a bit desperate. Loads of people here post the source code to their games all the time and don't make a big deal about it.

Source code, yes. But together with the compiler and graphics/music remixable for commercial use? Everything packaged so that you can remix in place on whatever OS? Where are all the similar game remix contests? I didn't force the slashdot editors to put it up either, clearly someone thought it was half way interesting.

What a welcome wagon, what's your next idea for building up the tigforums community?

[moi]

Anyway I think everybody agrees by now, everybody knows that Jobs is a dictator, and your game could be given the finger for whatever reason amuses the prince.
Those who still want to devellop for these platforms are doing it under their own responsibility. And so be it.

[Μarkham]

Though it will be interesting to see what the future holds, now that jailbreaking has been made legal.

[dto1138]

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2010/07/apple-loses-big-in-drm-ruling-jailbreaks-are-fair-use.ars

Here is a news story on Ars Technica about the Library of Congress granting DMCA exemptions for smartphone jailbreaking. Money quote from the US Register of Copyrights:

On balance, the Register concludes that when one jailbreaks a smartphone in order to make the operating system on that phone interoperable with an independently created application that has not been approved by the maker of the smartphone or the maker of its operating system, the modifications that are made purely for the purpose of such interoperability are fair uses.

This goes to the heart of the whole ability of the Curated Computing people to choose software for us.