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[dice]

For the past few months I've been pondering a very specific feeling I get from games sometimes. I found it challenging to put the idea into words concisely, but I've managed to expand on it a bit.

The most succinct rendering I can come up with is something like: That feeling you get when you a) find something special that you weren't necessarily supposed to find, or b) discover that there are such things to be found, but you haven't yet, even though nothing is explicitly preventing you from doing so.

It is:

• Wandering out into the wasteland in Fallout, knowing that you're going to encounter situations that you or your friends haven't seen or heard about.
• Finding out that there's a sophisticated system for prayer and deities in Nethack.
• Finding the cape in Link to the Past.
• Hearing that there IS a cape hidden somewhere, not having known anything about it previously.
• Learning to wall jump in Metroid 3: You could have done this from the beginning, and now a deeper version of the game has just been opened up to you.

Open-world games and roguelikes seem to be the mainstay of this feeling. Finding a bonus collectable in an otherwise linear game isn't the same. Finding a necessary item in Link to the Past or Metroid doesn't do it either, because that experience is along the "yellow line" that everyone's supposed to follow.

It is discovering layers of complexity that were there all along, but only for those players with the skill, tenacity, or cleverness necessary to exploit. It seems to happen when an event is not "designed" to happen: the designer is not foisting a new item or ability on you -- you discovered an area or mechanic yourself, and now get to enjoy a different experience than others might. You are off the beaten path, and there's so much there to explore.

So:

• Do you know what I'm talking about?
• What do you, or what would you, call it?
• What other games have this?

[Player 3]

As answers to the questions of your's:

1)Yes, I do know what you're talking about.
2)It's more of a "Why didn't I think of this before?!" adrenaline rush, going crazy with it.
3)Ummm...none really at the top of my head.

Just like now. If what you said is true, then there probably is a cape in LoZ:Link to the Past. It somewhat is like the "I must go find it. Like, now!".

In a way, these feelings are cool when we acquire unknown items, never hearing of it before. In fact, when players do find stuff out, you're bound to hear of cheats and guides to it more frequently than if you never did include it.

[Noel Berry]

I remember when I found the cape in A Link to the Past - it was awesome. It's a feeling of excitement and wonder. You begin to think about what new possibilities have been opened up by this new finding, and what other secrets may lie hidden out there, yet to be found. I actually had a similar experience playing the NES Zelda again a few months ago, and happened to find a secret stair case under a tree/bush after I accidentally used the lantern on it. Obviously this had already been found by other players (go on Game FAQs or a number of other sites and they have all of these secret places documented quite thoroughly), but I didn't know it existed, and finding it there was really cool.

So,

• Yes, and it's awesome.
• I think it's a feeling of excitement and wonder. You suddenly realize this game that you're playing could be full of new possibilities and secrets waiting to be found.
• The Zelda games (especially the old ones) seem to have some of this in them - such as the cape in A Link to the Past, and the original Zelda for the NES. I remember a few of the old Game Boy/GBA RPG's seemed to have some of these, though now I can't remember any in particular. I definitely had some moments like this when I first played in the world of Pokemon on my Game Boy Color.

[fraxcell]

Yeah, I definitely know what you're talking about. I experience it when I explore areas of a map which you are unessacary to the experience, and don't even offer any interactions or rewards other than just being there. Sometimes they're places which where created for a certain purpose, but then they didn't have time to fully implement them so they just left that area there for players to explore.

This can occur in both linear and open world games. Just Cause 2 was a fairly recent open world game, which had an incredibly massive overworld. I liked the feeling of finding tiny villages or just a single building in an incredibly isolated place, perhaps deep in the mountains. It's just as good a feeling in a linear game because you get the feeling of exploring off the beaten path.

[Ego_Shiner]

i've definitely felt this. as a kid, finding the bonus stage in the first level of adventure island was like that. also, in Oracle of Ages, there is so much weird glitch shit you can do in the cucco houses its not even funny (it is).

[Captain_404]

I think this is a really central aspect of games. It has always fascinated me that in certain games, players may go through it and never see certain parts of it at all, completely unlike books or movies or almost any other medium. It opens up these kinds of game to a unique sense of discovery. There is something very tactile and kinetically joyful about learning that there are entirely undiscovered, preexistent parts of your favorite work you were simply oblivious to before.

On some level, I don't know what to make of this. The player is able to completely miss parts of the game that could be vital to an interpretation of the game, but maybe the very nature of those spaces as nonobligatory enhances the power of their discovery.


Similarly, one of my favorite parts of any game is reaching a place that even the developers didn't know could be reached. There a real sense of pleasure in seeing those less-textured surfaces and vast, infinite planes that show that, yes, this game was made by human and, yes, it has flaws. It's especially fun when you find little easter eggs in those areas (perhaps the developer DID know about them!), it is even more humanity in a medium that tends to hide the brushwork of its makers.

[laserdracula]

It's something you don't see alot of in modern games. 

I've not played much of it, but I think Ultima 3 would be a good example.  There's apparently another world that you can reach where you can power up your characters that's completely optional. 

I really want to build a game around this concept.  A world with mechanics that are open to interpretation and a veiled history to be uncovered.

[Muz]

I know what you mean. It's that little X factor that game design theories gloss over. A lot of game design books try to push you towards going the simplest path and not adding unnecessary stuff. I think the "unnecessary stuff" is indeed the key here.

I'd call it details, for lack of a better word. You just get well.. impressed with how something put a little detail where they don't have to.

I'm not sure how to replicate it, other than really working on fleshing out whatever world you've created. Maybe you have to give the player something "optional" to achieve. Not optional as in "this unlocks crappy concept art". That kind of optional pressures you because you feel like you haven't won the game fully. Rather, it's something that you can win fully without.

I think the feeling comes from finding out that there's more to a game than you thought.

[dice]

[...] I think the feeling comes from finding out that there's more to a game than you thought.

Right on! I'm really glad I'm not alone in identifying this as a specific concept.

Similarly, one of my favorite parts of any game is reaching a place that even the developers didn't know could be reached.

This is also great. I'd call it something different though. In the situation you describe, the player has discovered the Edge of the World, a thing that they were supposed to never see, as opposed to never necessarily supposed to see. (If that makes any sense.) The concept I described above is more like you have discovered the edge of a new world, ripe for discovery.

If there's not a word for this feeling (and if it actually deserves one (I think it does)) I'm at a bit of a loss as to what it would be. Muz, I think you're right that it stems from details, but it is more of a result of details rather than the same thing.

[iggie]

Oblivion has this in spades. The main quest is a well defined series of missions - but the majority of the world is made of optional, and often mystery, discoveries. There are several long quest lines and game-changing special items that you only discover as a result of following rumors and hear-say and deciding to go off track to find out what they are about.

[Jonathan Whiting]

It has always fascinated me that in certain games, players may go through it and never see certain parts of it at all, completely unlike books or movies or almost any other medium. I

I disagree, there are plenty of things like this in book, movies, music etc.  Like all the clever stuff you'll miss if you only watch fight club once, or the revelations  that only only strike you after hearing a particular song 20+ times.

There's is perhaps something particularly poignant about these moments in gaming, as opposed to other media however.  Interactive does mean a lot.

[unsilentwill]

I love this idea as well and feel it should be in every game. I think the best description I have so far is "occult" which literally means hidden or unrevealed. It describes the feeling you get when the "natural order", say dungeon-item-town-dungeon, gets disrupted. Finding the secret that expands the whole world in front of you.

It's an interesting mechanic which works with the relationship of a algorithmic game world and a quirky creator or designer.

[Carrie Nation]

In response to your Edge of the World concept I have to bring up the World of Warcraft and simply hope that people here are mature enough NOT to jump on the bandwagon of immature hate that seems to follow said game wherever it is mentioned.

Anyways this is a game with a HUGE seamless world that was, let's face it, made in an entirely different generation of gaming. Because of this, Blizzard basically made all of their world's barriers with some fairly primitive terrain generators. The great thing about this is that they used real barriers instead of invisible walls to keep players out of the hidden parts of the extensive world. And as a long time player I know that basically ANYWHERE in this world can be reached with enough persistence and dedication. This leads to this whole new amazing meta game of exploration within an already extensive MMORPG. I've spent many a night with friends trying to work out ways to push farther into the edge of the world areas and find more of the easter eggs the developers have hidden there.

I always thought a game based on this sort of Glitch-Exploration would be really cool. The sort of slow and calculated approach you have to take to moving onwards is something it's really tough to duplicate on purpose, the constant risk of falling out of the world, getting stuck, etc. just feels like more of a risk than a programmed "you died" event.

Alright, done rambling.

[baconman]

Well, I suppose this goes around default abilities of the players. There's a lot of abilities a character can always have, but not be required to utilize until quite aways into the game (and thus, they're introduced then); though earlier levels were designed so that this ability could be somewhat exploitable. SuperMet and the Wall Jump immediately springs to mind, but a lot of games do this.

Arguably, you could design the layout of a game to be duplex, one using a certain unhinted ability, and another without using it, and leave the spoiler for the end - that way, upon replaying, it's a totally different experience.

[Stwelin]

Sort of the feeling you get when you realize that newts in Shadow of the Colossus give you move stamina. And with that stamina you can reach a secret garden on top of the castle.

That was a cool discovery.

[Muz]

Oblivion has this in spades. The main quest is a well defined series of missions - but the majority of the world is made of optional, and often mystery, discoveries. There are several long quest lines and game-changing special items that you only discover as a result of following rumors and hear-say and deciding to go off track to find out what they are about.

Actually, the Bethesda games seem to strongly focus on this mystery factor. The "generic quests" seem to not be the main point of the game.. it's the discovery of the side stuff that is more fun. A lot of the Fallout 3 discussions seem to be about people who found weird stuff here and there. Many of the interesting quests can't be found if you win the game or even do all the side quests. You'd have to explore well outside the path the game sets you on to find cool stuff.

[sodap]

Some years ago, I used to play Tibia, which is an indie mmorpg that has changed a lot over the years. Imho it has changed for worse. A big component of Tibia was this feeling of mystery, you had truly unique and rare items in the game, and there was no quest system, you had to discover stuff on your own, no npc had a big ! or ? to give you a quest or let you finish it. It was kind of based on the ultima series.

There were stories, rumors, urban legends about stuff that had happened in the game. It was really great until they decided to change all that for something more in the vein of wow and other modern mmo's.

[Dook]

Bethesda games definitely. Basically finding anything that isn't necessary to the game/story but gives you an extra perk or even a fun little experience. I seem to remember something about giving the proper sacrifice to the demon gods in Oblivion could give you powerful/weird items.
In Morrowind I always played a sneaky character and since it didn't adapt the creature level to my level I could get into some really dangerous places and steal some high level stuff way before I was supposed to. At one point I stole an amulet that let me go to Oblivion (the demon plane thing) and steal a crescent blade that was probably part of some quest. I think that gave me the feeling you're talking about.

Also any game like Zelda, Metroid, and Aquaria of course. Where you gradually get more powers enabling you to return to well known areas and open up new places there.

And the cow level in Diablo?

[Vino]

Holy shit there's a cape in LTTP?

Sort of the feeling you get when you realize that newts in Shadow of the Colossus give you move stamina.

Only the glowy tail ones. And forget the garden, it helps you fight the colossi, and that's the best way to get EXPLODING ARROWS!!!

Anyway, to contribute some actual substance to this thread: The problem with this is that you need to have a good game first. That means putting a lot of time into designing the gameplay. An already immersive world and gameplay experience is essential or nobody will even want to look around and find this stuff. Once you have that in place then it's time to worry about hiding extra goodies for your players to find, and I view that as really the easy part.

[Greg Game Man]

man... SOTC is FULL of these..

as someone mentioned, the stamina lizards and the secret garden.

ALSO- you can grab onto the birds tails and fly on eagles and pigeons around the world
ALSO- after finishing the game 3times, i realise you can stand on agros back, and also hang off his side whilst he gallops..
ALSO- theres a big turtle somewhere
ALSO- ico beach
..lots more

I think it feels great, because games dont usually let you find these things they tell you plainly like you are a child in a classroom, so it feels more like YOUR discovery, not one the designer gave to you.