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[DrDerekDoctors]

In the end, he's asking for feedback, and we're being honest. I don't think I've been particularly harsh. I can't speak for anyone else's comments. (*cough* Goring *cough*)

Gah!

But really I think honest feedback, even if some of it seems brutal, will be more useful in the long run than insincere pats on the back.

Brutal? I prefer "unfettered by moral or sociological considerations".

Also, that was an excellent message, Alec. *pat* *pat*

[wonderpus]

i guess i misread some of the posts then ..
there seemed to be a lot of ."why are you wasting time producing this shit type questions"

not everyone has original ideas and that shouldn't stop them having a go

and i don't believe i was suggesting you tell him that his game was awesome by any stretch , just to massage his ego or weiner or whatever ..

the moral here is if you aren't doing anything NEW then don't bother posting on these forums ..

The moral is that if you post on these forums, you should expect honest critiques.  If you want someone to play with your weiner just because it feels good, then I hear the Indiegamer forums are always looking for new members.

(By the way, I will totally amend the above statement to include the weinerless members of our species as soon as some weinerless members join!)

I didn't see a lot of honest critiques, just a lot of "why should i play this crap " type vibe .
Rather than a "i don't have time so wont judge" or "i have 5 minutes i'll give it a go "

[Akhel]

What the hell, it's actually pretty fun.
Yes, it's match-3, yes, it's unpolished for my tastes, but I can see myself playing it to kill some time.
It's not fantastic, I'd never pay for it, but it's also not horrible and I think it could be interesting if you add some new, innovative mechanics and polish it some more.

[Derek]

not everyone has original ideas and that shouldn't stop them having a go

This is true, but I think what I said holds... if the author has gotten personal satisfaction from creating something, then that is wonderful.  But for us, the players, and for the community, a game that does *nothing* new is pointless.  Am I wrong to say this?

I think a lot of the replies on this thread have been perhaps more cold than they could be.  But you see enough of these games, and it's easy to become cynical about them.

When the comes to PC games, people are pretty particular about what they choose to download... I can see a few screens and read a description and it can be enough to let me know that I'm not going to enjoy the experience.  If you can't provide a compelling reason for me to click, I'm not going to.  And if you want to make a game that reaches people, then you have to provide those compelling reasons.  Otherwise, it's a failure on your part as a developer.

Again, if you want to make a game for your personal satisfaction only, that is awesome!  I don't think anyone here begrudges anyone else that right.  But if that's your prerogative, then you probably don't need our feedback anyway...

[Alec]

Also, that was an excellent message, Alec. *pat* *pat*

You're supposed to pat me on the back, not... there... 

[BMcC]

he created something
regardless of the content he should be proud of himself for that .

::rips a fart::

Also, that was an excellent message, Alec. *fap* *fap*

:D

[DrDerekDoctors]

Also, that was an excellent message, Alec. *pat* *pat*

You're supposed to pat me on the back, not... there... 

Oh dear, what a... genuine... mistake.

[ZombiePixel]

the moral here is if you aren't doing anything NEW then don't bother posting on these forums ..

As a developer and a gamer, I'm okay with that.

[wonderpus]

he created something
regardless of the content he should be proud of himself for that .

::rips a fart::

:D

Congrats .. you win

[Alex May]

I like what wonderpus has to say but I also think the other guys have a point. But in the end I like what wonderpus has to say.

I think the vibe being given off here is "you're not indie enough for our club" which like it or not is ostensibly riding on the back of "nyah nyah we're IGF winners and we run the place" (no offense meant but there it is) both of which are obscuring the real message "try to do something that will interest people before you sell it, otherwise give it away for free".

In the end if you want to make a game for practice, don't try to make money off it. If you want to make money off a game, try to innovate. If you want to clone a game, this isn't the place to ask for feedback, try indiegamer forums. Even then they will tell you to innovate or your sales will suffer.

[Derek]

I like what wonderpus has to say but I also think the other guys have a point. But in the end I like what wonderpus has to say.

I think the vibe being given off here is "you're not indie enough for our club" which like it or not is ostensibly riding on the back of "nyah nyah we're IGF winners and we run the place" (no offense meant but there it is) both of which are obscuring the real message "try to do something that will interest people before you sell it, otherwise give it away for free".

In the end if you want to make a game for practice, don't try to make money off it. If you want to make money off a game, try to innovate. If you want to clone a game, this isn't the place to ask for feedback, try indiegamer forums. Even then they will tell you to innovate or your sales will suffer.

Like I said, I think some of the replies in this thread were too cold.  (BMcC, I love you, man, but I'm not sure that the fart ripping was entirely appropriate in that situation. )  Like I also said, it's easy to get cynical quickly when you're dealing with such a saturated (and honestly, dull) genre.

However, I feel like, tone aside, the points that were brought up in this thread were well-explained and well-thought-out.  It was good feedback.  If you make a Match 3, then yeah, you are going to have to make a brilliant fucking game if you want to get a pat on the back here.  I don't think I have to apologize for that.

Regarding the "nyah nyah we're IGF winners and we run the place" thing... man, I don't even know how to respond to that.  That's just utter bullshit, and I don't think we should be punished for having opinions just because we won an award.  I've never once used that as a reason to talk down to someone, and neither has Alec.  That was such a huge honor for us... something we worked extremely hard for.  How dare you bring that up and turn it around on us.

[Alec]

I feel kinda hurt by that too. Actually, I don't feel cynical or cold! I felt like I was honestly trying to talk to this guy to figure out what he was about. Same with the MMO/RTS guy.

When I was growing up making free games, I made a lot of crap. I also started a lot of ambitious projects that I could never finish. For me it was just about making games, it didn't really matter if they were any good! I learned a lot... but my games were crap in the end. I wish I'd spent my time doing something I wouldn't have been as ashamed of today. What I really needed was someone to suggest to me to focus down on something I could actually finish, and to do something worth finishing.

I know that won't mean anything to some people. But I still feel this urge to talk to people who are venturing out on projects that seem like "bad ideas" to me and just find out what they're about. Have a discussion. They're free to consider the things I say or not. Maybe it'll help them, maybe it'll end up as more background noise.

In the end, I feel like if we all talk honestly about what we think we have a better chance of improving our work.

[lowpoly]

I know that won't mean anything to some people. But I still feel this urge to talk to people who are venturing out on projects that seem like "bad ideas" to me and just find out what they're about. Have a discussion. They're free to consider the things I say or not. Maybe it'll help them, maybe it'll end up as more background noise.

In the end, I feel like if we all talk honestly about what we think we have a better chance of improving our work.

You make a bunch of really good points, I agree that an open, candid discussion should be held for every game idea put out there by us, regardless of how trivial or redundant it may seem. Only good can come of it. But when you say:

For me it was just about making games, it didn't really matter if they were any good! I learned a lot... but my games were crap in the end. I wish I'd spent my time doing something I wouldn't have been as ashamed of today.

You're speaking with 20/20 hindsight. I'm sure there was something cool enough in your earlier efforts that drove you to completing the game, otherwise, you probably would have let it just die. I'd also bet you're at where you are today largely because the lessons learned from all the 'crap' you made when you younger. In that aspect, you have nothing to be ashamed of, because it got you where you are today, making innovative stuff.

In the end, some of us are doing this to learn, some just for fun, and some with the hope of earning a buck or two on the side. I still believe that anyone who has actually gone through the rigors and completed a game deserves some credit, regardless of the end result. Now, if 3 or 4 games later they're producing nothing but rehash, then we jump down their throats for being unoriginal bastards.

[Alec]

then we jump down their throats for being unoriginal bastards.

See, I don't feel I've jumped down anyone's throat for being "unoriginal bastards". I just find this concept uninteresting as it is. That's all I've said.

I don't think games have to be "innovative" to be good.

[ZombiePixel]

All I know is every time I see titles like Heroes, Ghost Hunter, Pirate Tales, Viking Armada, whatever and discover that they're nothing more than match-3 clones a little bit of me dies inside.  Your clone made baby Jesus cry!

[Alex May]

 

My post was out of order, I was a bit drunk (explanation rather than excuse). I apologise for what I said. I guess I've found Alec's posts on this board often very cold and superior, and the general tone of this thread made me feel exactly as wonderpus described.

So yeah. Sorry. 

[Alec]

I guess I've found Alec's posts on this board often very cold and superior

Dude, if you have a personal problem with me, it'd be nice if you actually dealt with it personally. Rather than insulting me from a distance.

<- My email's over there. Send me your list of reasons why I'm such a terrible waste of human life.

[Alex May]

No no, god. no. Hate? Waste of human life? Wow, talk about a misunderstanding, that's not what I said or meant at all.

Look, forget about it, OK? I think I'll take a break from this place for a while. You all have fun

[Alec]

Sarcasm failed. :\

man hugs

Seriously, if you think I'm a dick, you gotta tell me. I really don't want to be one.

[lowpoly]

then we jump down their throats for being unoriginal bastards.

See, I don't feel I've jumped down anyone's throat for being "unoriginal bastards". I just find this concept uninteresting as it is. That's all I've said.

wasn't directing this at you or anyone else, sorry if it came across that way. Believe me, as a developer of a grand total of ZERO games, I'm the last person who should be casting stones...

I just feel that anyone who actively belongs to a community shares some of the responsibility for the aggregate product. My idea of jumping down someone's throat is less of an attack and more of a motivational kick in the ass. We should actively challenge each other or face the kind of apathy that's become prevalent in other places.

Which isn't what's happening right now... so, good!