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[superflat]

I've been debating whether to post this or not, but I feel here is a good place to ask for advice.  I'm in what I think is quite an unusual situation, and while I've tried to google for information, I haven't come up with much.

I'm just gonna quote my own introduction from the introductions thread so you can see what my history is...

I published a couple of games back in about '94 / '95 on the Amiga computer in the UK.  They were licenseware titles (sorta between shareware and commercial, towards the end of the Amiga's life).  One of them was a point'n'click ala Monkey Island called Keith's Quest.  It was on 4 whole disks and did quite well in reviews, getting 85% in Amiga Format.  I made it with a mate called Caspar, who did the art.  I also did a coverdisk for AF which was called Jet Set Willy 3 (an unofficial sequel.)  Both of these are are there on the net if you have a search.

I did a degree in CS then dropped out in my final year to become a drum and bass DJ and have been doing that ever since, living in Japan for quite a while.  Games have always been my passion, particularly Japanese ones, and I was lucky enough to meet some of the movers and shakers over there.

But I'm hoping to move this year into the games industry and I've been doing a lot of research and revision, working on demos and so on, learning new things such as OpenGL.  I'm hoping to get a job for a couple of years in the industry and when I have a little experience and cash to start an indie!

What I need to add is the two things I think that might really work against me:

First, although I dropped out of my degree, I did get a Pass (due to my strong final year project so my tutor told me), but I'm worried it looks really bad on a CV.  Hopefully if I get to the interview stage I could explain what happened (I was on course for an upper 2nd.)

Secondly, I'm relatively old at 31!  This is what I've had trouble finding info about.  Is it really gonna work against me?

On the plus side, I've worked hard on my demos over the last couple of years, and have five or six showing different kinds of skills, AI, pathfinding, particles, GUI, 2D,3D,scripting language etc.

So what advice do you have?  I'm quite nervous, and actually the reason I entered the VNGC was to prove to myself I can deal with crunch time and produce something on a deadline. 

Thanks in advance,

Jasper.

[Farbs]

With five or six demos showing different skills and some shareware titles under your belt I'd say your chances are 100%. Honestly. It's more a question of how good your job would be. I think it's pretty rare that people are hired above a junior level without a few years' commercial experience, and better studios tend to be pickier. Also it helps if you live in the same country as the studios you're applying for, as visas etc can be difficult and expensive for the studio.

But yeah, unless you have apalling interpersonal skills or referees who hate you I don't think you'd have any trouble.

P.S: I dropped out of uni too, and I got a job in the industry

[Saint]

I didn't have a degree when I got hired either. But anyway.

It all depends on your portfolio. When you don't have a track record, what you can show is everything - show a few pieces of your best work in the areas you think you're good at or want to work in. Quality is infinitely greater than quantity so throw away anything that's not absolutely top-notch - the one responsible for reading applications isn't likely to try more than a couple of your demos anyway.

I'd be lying if I said age was irrelevant, but it's not nearly as important as your portfolio and whether it's a positive or a negative thing depends a lot on the employer. 31 isn't that old anyway, many people I know shifted gears many years into their career and go from programming to design, concept art to modeling or from anywhere to producing - meaning they're more or less fresh at their position long past your age.

IGDA founder Ernest Adams wrote a book called "Break Into the Game Industry" that you might want to check out; http://www.gamedev.net/reference/business/features/bitgi/

Oh, and you surely know this, but don't say you want to work for a couple of years and then continue on your own. Training a new employee is an investment for any company, more than enough of a gamble even if they don't know you're going to leave after a couple of years.

[superflat]

Oh, and you surely know this, but don't say you want to work for a couple of years and then continue on your own. Training a new employee is an investment for any company, more than enough of a gamble even if they don't know you're going to leave after a couple of years.

Yeah I quite agree, and I'd only quit my job if I was unhappy with it and a situation presented itself where I met the right people for a team.  Assuming I can get in then I'm actually really looking forward to it, I guess I've just become a little cynical from all the horror stories.  If I ever felt I could reach a position where I could be truly creative within the industry (ie a designer position - I know... everyone wants to be a designer... but I genuinely feel that that's what I'm made for as I've always been a jack of all trades rather than a master of one.)  Anyway if that was ever the case I wouldn't want to leave!

Thanks for the positive encouragement both of you. I really feel like I've been building up to this for five years. I've been unsatisfied in the music industry for a while and I started coding initially as a hobby again.  But I'm almost beginning to gain some confidence.  One problem is I need to be in central London because my dad is ill, which is hardly the centre of the UK gaming world (most houses are in the North or the suburbs.)

I hope that above all my passion + work ethic comes across if I get the chance to interview, and that somebody sees the potential in my unusual skill-set (programming, music... even 3d studio.)

By the way if anyone would like to check out my earlier work (via UAE), I found Keith's Quest on Hall of Light (http://hol.abime.net/4684)  Quite a nostalgia trip, can't believe it was almost 15 years ago I started making it.  Says it was written in GRAC but actually I used AMOS hehe!

Here's some screenies:

[Guert]

What'll give you a job is your portfolio + attitude during the interview.

Your portfolio must really target what job you are aiming for. If it's programming you want to do, you have to show that you can code by today's standard as well as doing it efficiently. I'm not an expert in code at all so I cna't help you more on that topic, but for your portfolio, you simply need to focus on how well the game is coded.

In term of art, you have to show what you can do but also what you can come up with  when working with tight restrictions. Can you make pixel art? Can you make low-model poly? High-res artworks? Animation? You also have to show that you know the tools. How can you create cool effects efficiently using photoshop? How can you change a 3D animation quickly? You have to show that you're not just good with your creative skills, you must also show that you understand the tech side. I'm not a pro artist per see (well not officialy) so I'm not the best positioned to tell you exactly what to do.

In terms of design, well, that's something I can talk about. First of all, you must show that you know what makes a good game and what ruins one. You must be able to show that you can enhance an existing concept too. You must also show that you know how big games are crafted and show that you can deal with planification and documentation. Game design is 30% creativity, 70% planning and documenting. You can show games you created in your portfolio but you'll have to explain it clearly because your interviewer probably won't play at all. Part of the designer's job is to pitch ideas to his boss. Why should we take this direction instead of another? Why do you think something is a bad idea? You have to clearly explain your opinion and be sure of what you are talking about. You have to know other games and how they were designed so when you can always back your sayings when talking about existing concepts. You'll also have to analyse games on the market so you'll need to keep up to date with the industry. You also need to have a good personality so that you can easily work with all the other team members. You also need to be able to listen to play testers to see how you can make your work better. Plus tons of other skills that would take too long to list... Plus there are all sorts of designers so you have to know what field of deisgn you'd like to work in.

All in all, you just have to make sure that you aim for one position and that you prepare yourself accordingly. And remember that being creative depends of where you work. You can be a game designer and only write down and elaborate ideas of others (mostly in big places). Personaly, where I work, everybody has a word to say about the creative direction of the game. The leads take the final decisions but overall, everybody in the team is implicated in the creative process. You just have to find the rigth studio for you.

Well, I hope this makes a bit of sense... Don't be shy to ask me questions if what I wrote isn't clear.
Later!

[princec]

WRT age... I've been hiring & firing for a few years and I'd nearly always take someone over 30 as opposed to under 30 if I had the choice, for a given apparently identical skillset and level of ability. 30+s tend to be more reliable, rounded individuals with general experience in dealing with the world, other people, time management, etc. They also generally tend to have more experience in the relevant skills of course, which skews interviews in their favour usually. They are also typically a lot more expensive than 20somethings but you get what you pay for: pay peanuts, get monkeys.

Cas

[superflat]

Guys thanks so much for the encouragement.  I feel like I could... like I could... like I could .... TAKE ON THE WORLD!!!!!  :D

Seriously though, I've got loads more specific questions I'd love to ask.  So Guert if that offer still stands I'll write a lengthy post tomorrow explaining a bit more about my goals and asking a few questions about how I can work towards them. 

I'm far too tired to formulate anything tonight...  But I honestly thought I was all alone in my quest, and it's so great to have your advice on hand.  Everyone's situation is different, so I found it hard to get specific advice for my situation while googling.

Cas - I never thought my age might actually work in my favour, it's great to know!  I hope other HR people feel the same way.  Certainly here in Japan that's the case, but I'll be job-hunting in London as I mentioned. 

[Guert]

Seriously though, I've got loads more specific questions I'd love to ask.  So Guert if that offer still stands I'll write a lengthy post tomorrow explaining a bit more about my goals and asking a few questions about how I can work towards them. 

Sure, I'll try to help as much as I can

[moi]

So you made Keith Quest when you were 15? good job!

[superflat]

@ Moi,

I began coding it when I was 15-16 and it took about 3 years to finish (on and off including a last 6 months crunch on my gap year).  At the time I was really hopeful it would sell, but I think I missed the boat because it came out in about '94 - just after Doom had caused a mass-exodus from the Amiga to the PC.  Poor old Amiga died a sudden death (I'd had a 500, a 1500 and a 4000/030).  Reluctantly, I bought a PC because I wanted to play games like Day of The Tentacle and of course Doom / Quake.  But it instantly killed my game dev, as I had no desire to get into the horrible world of DOS programming.

I picked up again years later when I found out about Blitz3D (written by Mark Sibley who'd done the Amiga Blitz Basic) and moved onto his new language (a sort of OO Basic, Blitzmax).  Meanwhile I've been learning Ogre & C++ (again), but for small projects in 2D I love BMax.



@ Guert

So here is my situation, and perhaps you can advise me on how to move forward. 

I think my skills are these:

1. Definitely music - that's been my career so far, a producer / DJ / record label owner, for 10 years.  I've been quite successful, touring the world and whatnot (don't wanna sound arrogant but I think it's important to let you know).  I'm pretty sure if I found the right opening I could do some kind of audio work.  Although I have to say if it's not gonna lead me to any kind of design position, it's not the way I want to go.  The only example I can think of of someone who's achieved this is one of my absolute heroes, Akira Yamaoka (of Silent Hill fame)...  His music is incredible, and he was asked to take the reins as producer on the third installment.  I think this sort of move might be more likely in Japan though.

2. I'm a decent programmer.  Not an uber-leet shader kind of guy, but I can get the job done, I've been well trained, and in certain fields I can be quite creative with my code.  I think my strengths are in -

a) scripting languages (I wrote and adventure game language as my final year project in university)

b) 2D programming.  I've always loved writing sprite / 2D graphics systems.

c) general game logic

d) writing tools - I've made all kinds from sprite editors, level editors, full GUI systems (Windows-like systems).

3. I have good people skills. I've had to have them being a musician - doing interviews, scoring gigs, getting onto record labels etc.  Also definitely good as a team player!

4.  I think I'd make a decent level designer.  I've always enjoyed that side of it, and I can use 3D packages (I've learned 3Ds Max pretty well now over the last 6 years or so).  I like the idea of scripting in events.

5. Definitely an important one:  I can write.  Both my parents are writers (my dad's a well-known script-writer).  I also do it as a hobby.  I have one finished, unpublished novel, and lots more short stories.  One of my biggest gripes in games is the shoddy dialogue.  That's why Monkey Island blew me away and was such an inspiration to me.  I suppose I also have the life experience to draw on.  Comedy is not my forte, but I'm interested in deeper, more emotional writing.

6.  I know what I like and dislike about games, and I play far too many of them.  I can wax lyrical for days on end about the balance of games, what I'd like to change etc.


Now here are my definite weaknesses:

1.  I'm really not a 3D programmer - my advanced maths is rusty and I don't have that super-precise kind of brain.  I can do it when pushed, but nowhere near as fast as a natural.

2. Although I used to be good at it, I've forgotten a lot about things like lex and yacc from the scripting side of things.

3.  I'm not good with the business side of things (part of the reason I've become unsatisfied with running my own record label).  Business and money turn me right off.

4.  I'm not too familiar with some modern frameworks like DirectX, XNA. 

5.  I guess low-level stuff is not my forte, although for some reason I love the simplicity of assembler haha.

6.  I can't pixel!  Not well at all.


So as you can see, there's a lot of things to take into account!

Ultimately my goal is this: to make the two or three game ideas I've had all my life, but never had the resources to do.  Also in the meantime I need to earn a living, so going indie from the outset is not going to work.  My one truly great game idea is actually a point'n'click adventure, which might be ideal for the DS / Wii.  I have full design docs and I want to make this more than anything in the world!

[edit: I think I missed out on an important skill - which is that I have a good grasp of 'feel', and seem to be good at making the player interactions fun and fluid.  I enjoy balancing the avatar's responsiveness and making the UI slick and unobtrusive.  I could definitely work in this field too.]

[edit2:  Reading back it sounds like a horrible, self-loving CV, but I guess I need to be confident if I'm going to get my first job...] 

Thanks for your time once again man.

[Hideous]

Very unrelated, but you can use AGS to make that point and click of yours. Except maybe you need someone else to do the art.

[superflat]

Thanks hideous... I've already written the engine, as I wanted more flexibility in terms of graphics (1024x768, lots of particles, lighting etc.)  I just need an artist or three capable of anime-quality art.  I envision it as playing an anime film if you like.

Here's some screenies from the demo I've done (I've used 3D Studio and Poser, but would of course rather have hand-drawn art):





[Edit: Sorry for the wide images.]

[Guert]

I'm not an expert on the japanese side of the industry. Some things are seen in different ways over there (I'm in canada).

Ok let's see...

What I understand is that you have two major skills you can work on: Music and level design. Your background in music is a pretty strong card for any position in sound engineering and your skills of writing/coding/basic designing are all keys to a job as a level designer.

My advice at this point is to aim for both jobs. You have more chances to work as a sound engineer than anything else since you have the tech side and the experience in the field. Now, this isn't as bad as it seems. First of all, any job in the industry will allow you to see how everything is done internaly. You'll be able to do what you're good at while being able to see the working methods of the japanese industry. Plus, you'll probably make a lot more than if you'd enter as a play tester or Q.A.

There's some chances that you enter as a level designer but it's going to be a rougher road. Design positions are usualy pretty coveted so you have some chance but it's more likely that those jobs are acquired internaly than given to external candidates. In all cases, whatever position you might get, you'll be able to see how it's done japanese-style. And once inside, there's nothing stopping you from changing position or get tips from people who have jobs there on how to become like them or at leats learn how they got there.

As for chances to get a job, I say you have a pretty interesting portfolio music-wise and a good one as far as level design. The fact that you had your own label and that you have 10 years experience in the field of music shows stability, maturity, knowledge and field expertise. Your level design porfolio shows the will and some skills but lacks experience. You have some chance since you show that you could do it, but you haven't really done it inside a studio yet.

Whether you get a job in the industry or not, there's nothing stopping you from developing games on your own, as you are already doing.

As far as the interview, I can't really help you because I really don't know what japanese companies are looking for in a candidate since I never had to deal with any.

Well, I hope this will help you a bit. I also need to add that I'm not an expert in the field of getting a job in the game industry and I have no experience in the japanese industry. It would be a good idea to search the web for details on it and perhaps you'll even find details on what the ideal candidate is for jobs you want.

Take care and good job hunting  

[joshg]

Oh, and you surely know this, but don't say you want to work for a couple of years and then continue on your own. Training a new employee is an investment for any company, more than enough of a gamble even if they don't know you're going to leave after a couple of years.

Yet another reason why it was so ridiculous that I got laid off from my Big Game Industry job two years after starting ... congrats guys, you just paid to train me for my indie career!  Suckers!

[superflat]

Hi Guert,

Actually I will be living back in London from next month, so that's where I'll be conducting my job-search.  I'll be taking your advice and aiming my search at Sound Design / Level Design positions.  I guess I can't afford to be too choosy initially, but at the same time I wanna make the right first steps.  Although I really enjoy music writing + foley, I wonder how much of a chance it will give me at reaching more of a design-type position. 

As a level-designer, what do you think I should concentrate on, portfolio-wise?  Although I'm good with 3d Studio, I've not really used packages like UnrealED - partly because I really don't enjoy FPS's.  I know it's possible to make non-FPS's though.  Hmmm.

I'm taking it you're not really recommending a junior programming position?  Do you think I'm more likely to get where I want to be through one of the other two disciplines?  Is this because of my lack of 3D experience?

I'm sorry to have so many questions... I'm so excited and nervous at the same time!  It's odd, a major career-change at this stage in life, more scary than I imagined.  My dad's not well and I'm soon to be getting married so I'm hoping to be able to support my family through this.  I just wanna make sure I don't resent my choices, that I don't end up being stuck in a dead-end somewhere I'm not enjoying.  But thanks so much for giving me all the encouragement, it's really helping!

[Guert]

When we look for a level designer at work we are looking for the following:
A) Someone with some basics in coding/sscripting so he can work with the tools we have
B)Knows how 2D and 3D levels work because we create games in both technology
C)Understand what makes a good level and can tell where other games failed
D)Some one who can work with others easily since he'll have to deal with game designers, artists and coders as well.
E)Knows how to plan ahead. It's one thing to know how to make a level but it's another to plan and document them.

This means that your portfolio needs to show those basic skills. A prototype is usualy the best way to go. You show what you can do on many levels and that you have motivation. Of course make sure your prototype shows a good level Personaly, since you can do some 3D, you could make a prototype of an adventure game that's playable and fun. Ask for soem feedback about it. Then, try to make a prototype for a 2d action game, like a plateformer or something like that. Make sure you document them accordingly on paper too so that you can show the companies that not only you can do it, but you can do it in a pro and clean way.

Well, I'm no expert but you can check out those links...
link about design portfolio
Link about breaking in the industry
Creating a portfolio
 
As for coding, it's not because you wouldn't be able to do it, is that this skills doens't seem as powerful as the others. You don't have experience professionaly speaking and do not have a degree in a related field. It's possible that you are good enough but it's not obvious when looking at it from the outside.

Hope this helps. Game career guide has a lot of good features on that topic, they are in better position than me to help you out.

Changing career is always difficult but if you have confidence in your skills, I'm pretty sure you'll be happy you made the change.
Take care now!

[TeeGee]

Sorry to go a bit off topic, but it's in related field and I don't want to start a whole another thread for just one question.

So Guert, what if you're on the other side of the table and interviewing a candidate for designer job. Maybe you was in such situation before? What questions would you ask and what answers would you like to hear? I'm in this situation now with our company recruiting more creative staff. As it's the first time for me, I'm wondering what are other people's thoughts on this. Thanks.

[Guert]

I don't have much experience interviewing others since we usualy tell the RH what we need and my boss takes care of the rest... But here is what I know.

Make sure you know exactly what are your needs in terms of employer. Do you need a designer? A concept artist? Project planner? A network coder? Someone who can take care of many jobs at the same time, like designer/level designer/concept artist? You need to know exactly what you want and what the candidate will do first so you ask the real questions.

Once you know what you want, make a list of key skills you wnat your candidate to have and make 3 questions related to it, mostly creating a fictional situation. Example: You are looking for a game designer...
1)We are planning to make a sequel of one of our games. What would be the steps that you would take in order to create the design?
2)We are planning to create a game about monster truck racing. What would be the steps you would take to create the design?
3)We have to make a port of a license game (pacman, mario, space invader, whatever classic game you feel like). What would be the steps you would take to create the design?

In all cases, the answer is going to be pretty much the same: Research the game/concept, isolate what makes the game/concept fun, know the limits of the plateform and company philosophy/marketing/license, create first draft of design, prototype, play test and rework design. Depending on the answer of your candidate, you'll be able to analyse if he can actualy do the job. There is no perfect answer here, your job as an interviewer is to analyze the candidate's answer to see if it fits what you needed.   

Don't be shy to test your candidate during interview. For instance, you might ask an artist how he would create resized crops of a high-res image (let's say 800x600 splash image) to a low-res image (like 256x180) since this is the kind of things that happens when developing for a console or pc and then doing a port for Ds or something like that. When doing these test, make sure you have someone with you who knows the tools so he can judge if the answer would work too. Who knows, the candidate might even have a better way than your methods.

Always make sure you are at least 2 when interviewing. One will have the role of the tough guy, the other the role of the good guy. The tough guy tests the candidate and asks many questions, the good guy asks the basic questions and listens. Well, it's an approach, but it allows to see how well the candidate will react toward people who are not 100% nice with them. I'm not saying to insult the candidate but rather just shake him a bit not being 100% satisfied with his answers (even tho you are ). The problem with this is that you need to select your tough guy wisely. If the candidate will work right under you, better make you the good guy. Why? First impression. If the candidate leaves with the impression that his future possible boss is a weird and grumpy bastard, it won't attract him much. Of course, everything can be fixed once he's employed but you only get one first impression so make sure it goes like you want it to...

Before an interview, make sure you are really prepared. You are looking for someone but that someone is also looking for an employer. The way you will talk, the way you will control the situations, the way you will handle the answers and your overall attitude will affect the candidate's job to join you or not if you want him. 

Speaking of reactions, in an interview, you want to ask questions about your candidate's skills but also his relationship with co-workers. How does he react with others? What will he do in times of conflict? Is he diplomatic or not? Remember that you'll have to work with him and that his attitude will show in the final product.   This is especialy true when dealing with designers (they are a weird bunch ). Basicaly, a designer needs alot of social skills. He'll need to work with everyone all the time. He'll need to be able to listen to the others and understand that his design ideas are not the only good ideas around. You'll also need to know how well does he criticizes his and other's work. If he steps up to people saying it sucks, it ain't helping the game. If he knows how to tell it so that the creator doesn't feel attacked, it will only enhance the final game.

Well, I could go on but I'm not an expert and I don't want to say something that's faulty. And, as I said, I have yet interviewed a candidate on my own (the knowledge on that topic comes from my gf, my boss and my mother who have all interviewed many candidates in many fields). If someone feels I'm wrong, please tell me so

If you need some help TeeGee, I could ask for some more precise advices if you'd like... I'm gonna ask anyway cuz writing about this made me feel like I want to know more

Later!

[TeeGee]

Thanks, Guert. That's lots of useful hints.

If you need some help TeeGee, I could ask for some more precise advices if you'd like... I'm gonna ask anyway cuz writing about this made me feel like I want to know more

Sure, that would be cool. Thanks. I really adore your will to write lengthy posts just to help someone out. Okay - some more info:

I don't have much experience interviewing others since we usualy tell the RH what we need and my boss takes care of the rest... But here is what I know.

Yup, but I'm working in a small company now (six people, including two bosses) so no HR department.

Make sure you know exactly what are your needs in terms of employer.

Being pretty small, we need a bit of everything. Hhence the name of the position - "creative assistant". The person will fulfil typical junior designer tasks, will do a bit of level design, a bit of writing and a bit of testing to help alleviate some overhead. We would prefer that the person would eventually lean more towards a "producer" rather than a "designer" (although being at least competent in that realm to be able to help me as a junior), so I can focus more on my specialization (design).

Once you know what you want, make a list of key skills you wnat your candidate to have and make 3 questions related to it, mostly creating a fictional situation.

People we invited for the interview actually had to fulfill few test tasks first. These tasks tested different areas that were related to the position, so we could judge in which key areas the person is best and how he/she handles different stuff. I think we did that part well, so interview will mostly focus on psychological attributes of the candidate. We need someone young, enthusiathic and devoted to games, but not necessarily experienced. After all, we don't need 10 years of experience in making shooters for a company that makes casual games. In fact, such experience could be a burden for the person.

Don't be shy to test your candidate during interview. For instance, you might ask an artist how he would create resized crops of a high-res image

Luckily, I don't have to interview artists . But idea of asking precise test questions is a very good one. Thanks!

Always make sure you are at least 2 when interviewing. One will have the role of the tough guy, the other the role of the good guy.

Good idea. Especially that there's going to be 2,3 of us in there anyway. Bossess will ask the *hard* questions on money and such stuff, while I plan to ask more about games and other passions. As well they might be the "bad" guys, while I'll be the "good" one. The person will work with me directly so I think this could work.

Speaking of reactions, in an interview, you want to ask questions about your candidate's skills but also his relationship with co-workers. How does he react with others? What will he do in times of conflict? Is he diplomatic or not? Remember that you'll have to work with him and that his attitude will show in the final product.   This is especialy true when dealing with designers (they are a weird bunch ).

Yeah, I know . I'm a designer.

Anyway, I'm feeling like I'm stealing the thread here. Maybe better split it up or continue via email/PM (though I think this could be useful for the rest).

Thanks again.

[Guert]

Yup, but I'm working in a small company now (six people, including two bosses) so no HR department.

Wrong, you 6 are the department :D

It's great to see that you really know what you are looking for. Feels to me like you have all the required skills to do a good interview. Well, to me at least. I'll probably talk to my "experts" tonight so I may have new info then. But so far, it seems to me like anyone who applies for a job with you guys will see that you are prepared to grow and are serious.

I also feels like, even if this isn't exactly about superflat's chance of getting a job but talking about the flipside of an interview, how the company sees things, is quite relevant and will probably help those seeking info on how everything happens in an interview.

So you're a designer too? Is it for the same group which created Magi?
Later!