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[nikki]

I think it would be nice if you was looking more at the volume those bodies use then you knowingly draw a skeleton on top of it. (to draw a crappy outline on top of that at the end)


think weights&volumes instead of lines$constructions

[TheShard1994]

Thanks for all the advice, really appreciate everyone's help

I'll first try to get Gymim TILBERT to give me the sign to move on, then I'll start doing this other stuff too.

I did one without tracing now, it's really sketchy but I think it has a better ribcage. Boobs aren't correct though

[rivon]

The torso should be rotated more to it's left.

[gimymblert]

Well look here: I say pay attention to the line on the body, you miss them, there is hint of anatomy you miss by like 10 miles out!

Actually it's not about making stick figure at all, it's about understanding what you do, right now you have no understanding, you just do almost random stick figure on top. The stick figure is just a mean to attain knowledge, it allow to check assumption and correct them, but if there is no assumption there is no correction possible.

Also this isn't easy, what this exercises ask you is to abstract what you see in a different representation model with noise and partial data. You have to get the volume that is partially occluded and covered with muscle and abstract those to infer correct data. It's almost only logic. A great part of drawing is being able to abstract part to reconstruct them, and then add a layer of interpretation, intuition and emotion that makes the artistic touch, but this is the icing on the cake.

Like john sandoval suggest you must look at skeleton and also muscle volume to understand what's going on, even if you end up drawing stick figure. It's not because it's stick figure it's easy, however it does train fundamental skills for later.



You should look for proportion, look at the pelvis/chest ratio between the original and yours. Always look for ratio.




Also avoid partially cut on the frame, or heavily shadowed model. The whole body must be clear to see and inside the frame. This pelvis goes out of the frame, yet you trace it as it was inside, it's wrong.

[unsilentwill]

Yup, you've got the frame down well enough. Sorry kid, it's anatomy time. There's a couple hundred bones and muscles just waiting for you to learn them. It's going to be a long road (look at a real pelvis bone in 3D for example) but it's best thing you can do to improve quickly.

[TheShard1994]

Hm, I don't understand. Unsilentwill, you say I got this down enough now, but Gimym says I missed by miles?

And hm, so it'd be best if I studied all bones/muscles now, how they work and how they're related to each other?

Also, I was working on this before, just finished it (for as far as I wanted to go with it). Just did that to get some variety in what I'm doing, but I thought it might've been worthwhile to show it here to you guys

[unsilentwill]

Sorry for the confusion. Your stick figures and basic forms are in no way accurate, but they do the job they need to do, which is give your figures some basic volume--as you can see from that new drawing in comparison to the old one. The only way to get the accuracy Dr. Tilbert wants is to learn about the hips, learn about the spine, the ribs, the skull, etc. etc. I think he was arguing that jumping right into anatomy might be a mistake without knowledge of basic shapes and volumes which I agree with, so now it's time for knowledge.

My advice for learning anatomy is some basic sketches of the skeleton and its proportions, then the muscles and their proportions, getting familiar with then. Along the way when you're doing some fun sketches, it's time to start calling yourself on your BS, that is where you're trusting your imagination for anatomy instead of knowledge and reference. If you don't know where the muscles and bone are on a part of the body, look  it up and remember it.

Speaking of BS, you hid both of her hands. So that means it's probably time to deal with hands. How do you deal with hands? Look at hands.

[TheShard1994]

Ah okay, thanks for clearing that up!

Saying "BS", you mean "Bullshit", right?

I think I'll do the following for learning anatomy:
study how each different part is built up and how it works (read: a hand, a foot, the leg, etc.), then I'll draw them (while still studying and referencing it) in a lot of different positions (so for the hand, I'd draw it in various positions and stuff, until it is almost perfect).
Then, when I'm done with studying each individual part of the body, I'll start connecting them together (hands to arms, then arms to shoulders, etc.) and draw each of these separately, again in different positions.
Finally, I will study the proportions of everything together, how it all fits to one human being, and draw that as well.

Does this sound like a good plan?


Also, yeah, I generally suck at anatomy and hands are one of the worst things in it for me

[Blambo]

If you don't have a good grasp of how 3D objects work in general, you'll have a much harder time forming a complex system like a body. Focus on drawing and rendering 3d shapes! It's much more important to observe and intuitively understand then apply structural meaning to link tactile habits together than to learn the other way around.

Also, I don't think that's a good mode of study. I guess it's a little like working out; you have to isolate your muscles to get definition, but you only get stronger through holistic training. Understanding the body as a kinetic system is more important than learning to draw individual parts and linking them together.

Again, I insist that you familiarize yourself with 3d objects in general and come back to figures later.

[gimymblert]

Yep, maybe I was wrong, what I want you to get is looking for cue, then try to understand what was naturally hidden by looking for references.
Maybe you should start with simple volume, how to draw cylinder, sphere, cube and cone solidly and the proceed to still life?

[nikki]

If i may chime in again.


In artschool you start with real life drawing ,
So maybe you ought to be drawing some boxes and other volumes, maybe later you can draw your room from where you are, then your hands etc etc.

the goal is not so much to learn drawing, but the goal is to learn how to see.

in any case, drawing random pictures from nude babes on the internet is not the right place to start. You may look at those pictures for fun after you have drawn your own left hand.

[ANtY]

I'd suggest to place in front of yourself some items you can find around ur house, like headphones, cups, boxes, bananas, seashells, anything in variety of shapes. Then draw them with a time limit, like 1 minute or something, but draw a lot, not a single one, but at least 10 for one session. Then try doing the same with a time cap of 3 minutes per one. Try to simplify the form, shapes, don't focus on details because you won't have time for it and it ain't important at this stage.
Then start to make compositions, a basket, 3 bananas and 2 apples in it, and a teapot on the other side, this is for practicing proportions, and again don't focus on details, simplify.
Then you could ask a family member to pose for you, same as earlier no focus on details.
Probably at this point you'll notice that you can't draw hands/feet or faces, that is because you don't draw what you see, instead when you see "oh, there's the face" and you draw a face from your memory, same with hands and everything else. You have to focus on drawing exactly what you see, not what you think you see.

The most important thing at this point as nikki mentioned is to learn how to see, not how to draw.

just my thought, I can be wrong ofc

[TheShard1994]

Alright, will do So these could best be done on paper, right? Not digitally.

Thanks for the help again, really appreciate it all! I know I've kind of been stagnating, but I'm really devoted to improvement so I hope I will break through it soon

[ANtY]

It's better to do them on paper with a pencil

After all pencil is harder than digital so learning it is more valuable

[Hamish]

Hey - not posted here before, but thought I'd butt in. Nikki had it exactly right. You need to learn to draw what you see and not what you assume is in front of you. This is an absolutely fundamental distinction.

Forget about wire frames, anatomy, basic volumes and all that stuff for a while. You need to spend some time drawing things that you have no expectations for. By doing this you will be forced to rely on what you see in front of you and not what you r preconceived notion of a 'normal human body' looks like.

Here are some drawing drills for you, they might sound a bit Jedi/lame but I promise they will challenge you in the right way. If you stick at then for a while you will see results.

1) find a line drawing of a figure in a book, or print one off the internet. Ideally it should be realistic in style and a of a high standard. It doesn't matter what the figure is doing, if they are in a weird position then all the better. Turn the drawing upside down. Then copy it. When your finished you can turn both images the right way up to see how you've done.

2) set up a little still life with a bunch of objects, the objects should have complicated silhouettes. Like a pile of action figures or some tools spread over a table. Now you're not going to draw the objects. Your going to draw the spaces in between them. Don't look at the objects themselves, just focus on their edges, try to follow the shape as accurately as you can, if two objects overlap just draw the empty space that is left, ignore the interiors of the objects entirely.

3) get a sheet of paper. Screw it into ball. Draw it. Try really hard to get it right.

These are all line drawing exercises so no shading.

Get to it!

[TheShard1994]

I´ll do that I'll try to train observation, but this week I was really busy with school so I only did my wristwatch (photo is at a different angle):


Is this the "right way" to do observational sketches, or do you guys say it'd be better if I made as little pencil strokes as possible?

EDIT(sortof):
While typing this you, Hamish, suddenly posted. Talk about timing!
I'll try those things, it sounds like that'd be a quick and effective way to train purely on observation. Expect some work done soon

And thanks for jumping in, I like all the help I can get!

[gimymblert]

I want to say, that by observing many and many beginner drawing, we never draw what we see, no matter how skilled you are, you draw what you understand, that's why kids and noob drawing are so symbolic. To draw correctly, you need understanding, ie deconstruct intuitively the drawing so it's less symbolic and more "visual".

That's why training the basics of proportion and volume is important, you learn basic "alphabet" to reconstruct reality into something that is visually similar. But what we see is never visual, it is symbolic, and often things get ignored because you didn't learned to see them.

For a proof, he didn't drew the "light" he drew the edge of form, which is basically what he know (light and edge are different symbolic element).

So on the wristwatch, the proportion are totally wrong, My english does not allow me to describe the image in a way that make sense XD.

I'm not sure how to convey the right meaning to show how to think about proportion.

[Mipe]

That's why we use guidelines to assist in perspective drawing.

Something like this:


So in your case, the watch is a skewed oval, you can draw it correctly by drawing tangents to it and using those as guidelines.

[gimymblert]

Thanks mipe!

[TheShard1994]

Hm yes that might be helpful

So like Hamish told me, I drew something while looking at it upside down. Just got Bioshock Infinite so I thought I'd draw something from that art book. Here is the result (scan went wrong or something, the reference pic is now messed up):