next »

[bvanevery]

Oh, so "soloing" is some kinda MMO jargon term that doesn't mean the same as "playing the game singleplayer", am I getting that right?

soloing = playing the game single player.  However, both are done online, in the "massive" world.  In a MMORPG, the "Massive Online RPG" part is what the solo player pays attention to.  "Massive" is the size of the game.  "Online" is a content delivery model, not necessarily equivalent to a single player game, although they could be made equivalent. 

I'm not sure if you're using sarcasm, or really just have not considered why someone would solo a MMORPG.

[RCIX]

What i find interesting is that you seem to be ignoring the second M in MMORPG -- Multiplayer. 

[bvanevery]

What i find interesting is that you seem to be ignoring the second M in MMORPG -- Multiplayer. 

Soloists would happily play a MORPG.  I don't see why it's so hard to understand this kind of customer.

[s0]

I wasn't being sarcastic. I posted the  smiley because I thought I got the term "soloing" wrong. I did a quick google search on it and found a couple forum posts that seemed to use it synonymously with "playing without a guild", so that's where the confusion came from. 

[RCIX]

What i find interesting is that you seem to be ignoring the second M in MMORPG -- Multiplayer.  

Soloists would happily play a MORPG.  I don't see why it's so hard to understand this kind of customer.

But it's a massively multiplayer online roleplaying game. Expecting an MMORPG to cater to soloists is expecting a car manufacturer to come out with a truck that's not designed for hauling. It goes against the definition of the word. You can create a massive single player game, but then it's not an Massively Multiplayer Online game. It's easy to understand the player, it's hard to understand why they would choose to play "single player" in an MMO (which i clearly defined as being primarily multiplayer, as does the Wiktionary)

[bvanevery]

Soloists would happily play a MORPG.  I don't see why it's so hard to understand this kind of customer.

But it's a massively multiplayer online roleplaying game. Expecting an MMORPG to cater to soloists is expecting a car manufacturer to come out with a truck that's not designed for hauling.

Those exist.  They're called SUVs.  You are trying to draw sharp lines where none are needed.

it's hard to understand why they would choose to play "single player" in an MMO

It isn't that tough, any more than it's tough to understand driving with you and your buddies cross-country in a truck.  Trucks are still capable of transporting passengers.

We're losing focus on the subject of grinding.

[RCIX]

Soloists would happily play a MORPG.  I don't see why it's so hard to understand this kind of customer.

But it's a massively multiplayer online roleplaying game. Expecting an MMORPG to cater to soloists is expecting a car manufacturer to come out with a truck that's not designed for hauling.

Those exist.  They're called SUVs.  You are trying to draw sharp lines where none are needed.

it's hard to understand why they would choose to play "single player" in an MMO

It isn't that tough, any more than it's tough to understand driving with you and your buddies cross-country in a truck.  Trucks are still capable of transporting passengers.

We're losing focus on the subject of grinding.

I googled define truck, and i got this:

an automotive vehicle suitable for hauling.

If it's not designed for hauling, it's not a truck.

Just like you can't call a game an MMO if it doesn't, you know, cater to a ton of multiplayer activities.

[Xecutor]

In real life if you want something, in most cases you need to put some effort in it.
Effort->Reward
Many many people are doing boring jobs (grinding?)  to earn this freaking money to purchase what they want.
And for an average cleaner it will take like forever to earn enough for an elite yacht.

If in a game completely effortless action will not yield any reward, can you call this game free from grinding?

Right now I'm trying to design roguelike game without 'experience->levelup' scheme.
Current idea for leveling skills is as follows:
In order to level up some skill, you need to complete conditions set by trainer.
For example, to train fireball from lvl4 to lvl5 you need to kill 10 lvl5 beasts in some area.
And for an average character with lvl4 fireball these beast are somewhat dangerous.
To train healing you will need to heal wounds done by something nasty and so on.
Can you call this approach grinding?
And periodically player will have to prove his worth in challenges with increasing difficulty.

[bvanevery]

I googled define truck, and i got this:

an automotive vehicle suitable for hauling.

If it's not designed for hauling, it's not a truck.

The definition you found does not say designed for hauling, it says suitable for hauling.  Trucks, SUVs, and Vans can all haul a fair amount of stuff.  Even a Compact Car can haul more than you might think, if you've ever needed to move the stuff in your apartment to some other place.  "Suitability" begs questions of how much hauling performance you need to get the job done.  It's actually not a terribly precise definition of "truck"; perhaps you can find a better one.

Just like you can't call a game an MMO if it doesn't, you know, cater to a ton of multiplayer activities.

It is in this respect that you're focusing way too much on "Multiplayer."  It is not necessary for a MMORPG to have "a ton" of multiplayer activities.  It's necessary to have "a suitable amount" of multiplayer activities.  This doesn't preclude single player activities, or soloists enjoying various aspects of the game on orthogonal axes.  Take exploration, does it really matter how many people are doing it?

[bvanevery]

Right now I'm trying to design roguelike game without 'experience->levelup' scheme.
Current idea for leveling skills is as follows:
In order to level up some skill, you need to complete conditions set by trainer.
For example, to train fireball from lvl4 to lvl5 you need to kill 10 lvl5 beasts in some area.

How would one really learn to shoot fireballs better?  It's not going to be about how many monsters you kill.  It's going to be about what level of energy you can get out of your fingertips.  Or how you can get that energy to interact with the air, to set it on fire.  Or your ability to conjure other combustibles into the area that you want to set ablaze.  In real life, thermobaric weapons have technique and technology associated with them.  Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic, some classic sci fi writer once said.  What's the magic-physics of fireballs coming out of your hand?  How does one improve that conduit of energy?

[RCIX]

I googled define truck, and i got this:

an automotive vehicle suitable for hauling.

If it's not designed for hauling, it's not a truck.

The definition you found does not say designed for hauling, it says suitable for hauling.  Trucks, SUVs, and Vans can all haul a fair amount of stuff.  Even a Compact Car can haul more than you might think, if you've ever needed to move the stuff in your apartment to some other place.  "Suitability" begs questions of how much hauling performance you need to get the job done.  It's actually not a terribly precise definition of "truck"; perhaps you can find a better one.

Just like you can't call a game an MMO if it doesn't, you know, cater to a ton of multiplayer activities.

It is in this respect that you're focusing way too much on "Multiplayer."  It is not necessary for a MMORPG to have "a ton" of multiplayer activities.  It's necessary to have "a suitable amount" of multiplayer activities.  This doesn't preclude single player activities, or soloists enjoying various aspects of the game on orthogonal axes.  Take exploration, does it really matter how many people are doing it?

A better definition of truck (sort of):

A truck (American English) or lorry (British English) is a motor vehicle designed to transport cargo.

My point is that complaining about the lack of single player in an MMO is like complaining about a sports car's non-optimality in hauling anything of size. You can do it, but you're not going to get a lot of support for doing so. From what i can tell your complaint is that "MMOs don't have enough single player stuff". Ok, we understand. They might change that at some point. End of story...

All that is the state now though, and i don't see why MMOs couldn't integrate decent single player activities. But there's no use complaining about it.

[bvanevery]

My point is that complaining about the lack of single player in an MMO is like complaining about a sports car's non-optimality in hauling anything of size.

You're rather stubborn about accepting the SUV analogy aren't you.  You want everything to be in these all-or-nothing, so-quit-complaining categories.  You say MMORPGs have to be trucks.  You say they cannot be SUVs, they cannot combine hauling cargo with hauling passengers.  That's not allowed because... because... because you personally insist on trucks as the One True MMORPG Design!

All that is the state now though, and i don't see why MMOs couldn't integrate decent single player activities. But there's no use complaining about it.

You see the alternatives, but you don't question or complain?  That's foolish.  Nothing changes if you don't carve out the new intellectual space.  MMORPGs are mostly the way they are right now for one simple reason: money.  Way too much money to keep one going.  So, the business decisions made are rather conservative.  In an indie game development forum I'd hope you'd see this more clearly.  Indie != stuck with tradition.

[RCIX]

My point is that complaining about the lack of single player in an MMO is like complaining about a sports car's non-optimality in hauling anything of size.

You're rather stubborn about accepting the SUV analogy aren't you.  You want everything to be in these all-or-nothing, so-quit-complaining categories.  You say MMORPGs have to be trucks.  You say they cannot be SUVs, they cannot combine hauling cargo with hauling passengers.  That's not allowed because... because... because you personally insist on trucks as the One True MMORPG Design!

See the part just after that.

All that is the state now though, and i don't see why MMOs couldn't integrate decent single player activities. But there's no use complaining about it.

It's not that it can't be done, it's that no one has done it. And you seem to want to loudly yell that as much as you can, instead of simply moving on.

All that is the state now though, and i don't see why MMOs couldn't integrate decent single player activities. But there's no use complaining about it.

You see the alternatives, but you don't question or complain?  That's foolish.  Nothing changes if you don't carve out the new intellectual space.  MMORPGs are mostly the way they are right now for one simple reason: money.  Way too much money to keep one going.  So, the business decisions made are rather conservative.  In an indie game development forum I'd hope you'd see this more clearly.  Indie != stuck with tradition.

I don't question or complain because it's not going to do anything, and there's no use stirring up the fanbase or ragequitting from playing them (even though i don't play MMOs ). And MMOs are crazy complex, far above any indie developer's reach to make let alone successfuly promote. Read http://gamedev.stackexchange.com/questions/90/why-is-so-hard-to-develop-a-mmo if you don't believe me.

[bvanevery]

It's not that it can't be done, it's that no one has done it. And you seem to want to loudly yell that as much as you can, instead of simply moving on.

Dude, first off, this is a game design forum.  People can "complain" about game designs all they want here, if you want to call it "complaining."  Second off, this is a thread about grinding.  Multiplayer vs. single player has very little to do with it.  We got into this sideshow because extant MMORPGs have lotsa grind.

I don't question or complain because it's not going to do anything, and there's no use stirring up the fanbase or ragequitting from playing them (even though i don't play MMOs ). And MMOs are crazy complex, far above any indie developer's reach to make let alone successfuly promote.

Third, your financial defeatism is irrelevant.  Just because you don't think you're capable of ever changing anything, doesn't mean other people are so restricted.  You can invest a lot of your life telling other people "it can't be done" if that makes you feel better.  People sometimes do that, because when other people succeed where they have failed, or couldn't figure out what to do, it makes them upset / feel inadequate / etc.

Read http://gamedev.stackexchange.com/questions/90/why-is-so-hard-to-develop-a-mmo if you don't believe me.

Fourth, it may surprise you to know that not everyone around here is some spring chicken newbie programmer with unrealistic visions of grandeur, such as making a WoW size MMORPG for their first game project.  If you don't see how it could be done, then ask yourself honestly, how have you challenged yourself in your career to entertain how it could be done?  Some people pursue advanced technology.  Other people pursue financial brute force.  Choose your path.  If you don't want those paths, don't be surprised when others walking those paths don't listen to you.

[RCIX]

My only point (and C A Sinclair's) is that you're looking for grape soda in a can of Coke; it's simply not there. WoW markets to the gamer that wants multiplayer, not singleplayer. I probably went a little overboard with the rest of my post though.

Anyway, we should probably wrap this up as you are correct in saying this doesn't have much to do with grinding.

[bvanevery]

My only point (and C A Sinclair's) is that you're looking for grape soda in a can of Coke; it's simply not there.

DDO threw in an initial hit of New Grape Soda Taste! but the aftertaste was still Coke.  Although in DDO, technically there's a way out.  Once you hit that brick wall around Level 4, you can pay real money to keep soloing.  I just don't like DDO enough to do that.  The exploration is somewhat worth it if it's free, but not really worth it if it costs money.  At least, I'd have to see something better than an acid floor that's the MMORPG equivalent of a "coin chewer."  It doesn't feel like entertainment, it feels like manipulation to get my money, and a poor attempt at that!

[Xecutor]

Right now I'm trying to design roguelike game without 'experience->levelup' scheme.
Current idea for leveling skills is as follows:
In order to level up some skill, you need to complete conditions set by trainer.
For example, to train fireball from lvl4 to lvl5 you need to kill 10 lvl5 beasts in some area.

How would one really learn to shoot fireballs better?  It's not going to be about how many monsters you kill.  It's going to be about what level of energy you can get out of your fingertips.  Or how you can get that energy to interact with the air, to set it on fire.  Or your ability to conjure other combustibles into the area that you want to set ablaze.  In real life, thermobaric weapons have technique and technology associated with them.  Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic, some classic sci fi writer once said.  What's the magic-physics of fireballs coming out of your hand?  How does one improve that conduit of energy?

Trainer will show you how. But using magic on a train yard is one thing, and using it in a field with your life on the line is completely different thing.
In order to bring control of magic energies on a level sufficient to cast higher level fireball, one need some real practice.

p.s. most games are not about 'realistic/unrealistic'. It's more about 'fun/not fun'

[RCIX]

My only point (and C A Sinclair's) is that you're looking for grape soda in a can of Coke; it's simply not there.

DDO threw in an initial hit of New Grape Soda Taste! but the aftertaste was still Coke.  Although in DDO, technically there's a way out.  Once you hit that brick wall around Level 4, you can pay real money to keep soloing.  I just don't like DDO enough to do that.  The exploration is somewhat worth it if it's free, but not really worth it if it costs money.  At least, I'd have to see something better than an acid floor that's the MMORPG equivalent of a "coin chewer."  It doesn't feel like entertainment, it feels like manipulation to get my money, and a poor attempt at that!

Then it's not your can of soda

[bvanevery]

My only point (and C A Sinclair's) is that you're looking for grape soda in a can of Coke; it's simply not there.

At least, I'd have to see something better than an acid floor that's the MMORPG equivalent of a "coin chewer."  It doesn't feel like entertainment, it feels like manipulation to get my money, and a poor attempt at that!

Then it's not your can of soda

Is it anybody's?  DDO makes money off of someone's grind I suppose.  In theory, I could solicit player reactions to that particular acid floor level.  In practice I won't, because drilling through their forums is tedious.  Usual rabble, somebody utters an opinion, someone else shoots it down, blah blah blah.  Who ya gonna listen to?

BTW, are you going to talk about things being "not my can of soda" for any and every point that I discuss on this forum?  Because that's getting old really quick.  There's more to game design that just personal opinion or prejudice.  "Soda" in commercial practice is actually made out of ingredients: sugar, carbonated water, preservatives, flavorants, extracts, transportation and storage processes, refrigeration or lack thereof, even shape of the bottle.  Many aspects of soda production can be discussed objectively.  But in your hands, it seems to be this beating stick that means "don't complain about game designs."

[RCIX]

My only point (and C A Sinclair's) is that you're looking for grape soda in a can of Coke; it's simply not there.

At least, I'd have to see something better than an acid floor that's the MMORPG equivalent of a "coin chewer."  It doesn't feel like entertainment, it feels like manipulation to get my money, and a poor attempt at that!

Then it's not your can of soda

Is it anybody's?  DDO makes money off of someone's grind I suppose.  In theory, I could solicit player reactions to that particular acid floor level.  In practice I won't, because drilling through their forums is tedious.  Usual rabble, somebody utters an opinion, someone else shoots it down, blah blah blah.  Who ya gonna listen to?

BTW, are you going to talk about things being "not my can of soda" for any and every point that I discuss on this forum?  Because that's getting old really quick.  There's more to game design that just personal opinion or prejudice.  "Soda" in commercial practice is actually made out of ingredients: sugar, carbonated water, preservatives, flavorants, extracts, transportation and storage processes, refrigeration or lack thereof, even shape of the bottle.  Many aspects of soda production can be discussed objectively.  But in your hands, it seems to be this beating stick that means "don't complain about game designs."

The only reason is that you seem to be making unilateral statements that "x should do this or make that", and not "i'd prefer that x does this or make that". For instance, in the Minecraft thread, you repeatedly stated how the game was no fun, you had to force yourself to play, and that, among other things, the method of digging was unintuitive. Not all things are subjective, but plenty of them (and espeically a lot of what you talk about) is.