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[bvanevery]

Do you know how many people would KILL to work only 3-6 months the year?

Oh but they won't WORK to get there?  Nobody sets this up as their 1st job in the computer industry, unless they enter industry ridiculously overqualified.  Put your 2 years in like everyone else did, then get back to us about what your contracting options are.  If you actually have industry experience and you're not getting work, either the recession is severe or your job hunting skills suck.

But... well, since, I'm looking for a job, it's kind of frustrating that you feel like there are just shit tons of great jobs lying around for anyone somewhat qualified...

Don't complain about some computer job not being so great.  I've mowed lawns.

[Eraser]

"and all the big Game Jam organizations, like Tig Jam from the Tig Force forums"
bahahaha

Anyway, interesting article I suppose. Sort of makes me wonder what I could make in a month, but I'd have to learn flash first. I wouldn't know anything about average flash game prices either, but I imagine even a horribly done game that a portal buys for $500 can still have the money made back due to the sheer amount of traffic they have at their disposal.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

ah, bvanevery is one of those 'the poor are poor cause they just don't want to work' people, which isn't really worth arguing against since it's a disconnect from reality thing and he isn't liable to change his mind on it no matter how much evidence is presented, so as i mentioned let's just get back to the original topic

anyway according to FGL itself: http://www.flashgamelicense.com/blog/2010/01/looking-back-at-2009-trends-and-statistics/

"Total games put up for bid during 2008: 3225. During 2009: 4087."

"Total accepted bids during 2008: 588. During 2009: 1196."

so only about 20% of the games put up there sold

"Average (mean) accepted bid during 2008: $1295.80. During 2009: $1484.10"

so the average price is a little over 1k

"Average sale of games rated 1-4 in 2008: $482. During 2009: $350.
Average sale of games rated 5-6 in 2008: $444. During 2009: $639.
Average sale of games rated 7 in 2008: $889. During 2009: $999.
Average sale of games rated 8 in 2008: $2017. During 2009: $2126.
Average sale of games rated 9-10 in 2008: $3897. During 2009: $5567."

average for a top-quality game is 4k-5k, average for a low crappy quality flash game is $300-$500

"Number of games rated 1-4 in 2008: 18.3%. During 2009: 10.4%.
Number of games rated 5-6 in 2008: 49.3%. During 2009: 36.7%.
Number of games rated 7 in 2008: 24.6%. During 2009: 35.7%.
Number of games rated 8 in 2008: 6.5%. During 2009: 16%.
Number of games rated 9-10 in 2008: 1.1%. During 2009: 0.9%."

most games are rated 5-6, which means that most games that are sold on there get $400-$600

only 1% of the 20% of games (or 0.2%) are rated 9-10, so it follows that only 0.2% of games put up for bidding on FGL make more than $2k; also only 6.5%-16% of games that sell on FGL (or 1-3% of all games put up for bidding on FGL) make 2k

so from those numbers it's pretty obvious that very few flash games seeking sponsorships even make 2k (about 2%)

[deathtotheweird]

that is just FGL statistics though, you could say

from those numbers it's pretty obvious that very few flash games seeking sponsorships from FGL even make 2k (about 2%)

instead

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

yes, i should have said that. but i am under the impression that the large majority of flash games that get sponsorships get them through FGL, so i'd suspect that overall numbers would be somewhat similar

there are specialty cases though: for instance, cartoon network sponsors games from flash developers directly, i believe

[bvanevery]

ah, bvanevery is one of those 'the poor are poor cause they just don't want to work' people, which isn't really worth arguing against since it's a disconnect from reality thing and he isn't liable to change his mind on it no matter how much evidence is presented, so as i mentioned let's just get back to the original topic

I don't think you get it.  I've been poor, in the name of software idealism and open source.  I've lived at that $8k/year described, in a major metro area.  I've proven that you can starve as a programmer, if you want to.  I'm here to tell you that it doesn't work, and aside from the deepest recessions, you don't have to live that way and shouldn't live that way.  If you don't get decently paying computer work, and the economy isn't dire, it's because you're a sucker.  Probably some wet behind the ears sucker who has no idea how much money is in the computer industry.  During the last recession a friend of mine's entry level salary at Microsoft was $70K/year + benefits.  Do you even know what money is?  Do you know what contractor math is?  USA society considers it rude to talk about money and salaries, because in the USA, people like to keep it all hidden so they can take advantage of you.  I'm here to tell you that if your life plan is $8k/year to make games, and you've convinced yourself that you have to live that way and can't make games otherwise, you're a complete, total, sucker.

[mirosurabu]

The average FGL sponsorship money is around $1'500 - $2'000. I believe that's what Andy was talking about. However, that's average only among games that actually sell. Counting games that don't sell it's much, much lower, probably around $500 or something.

I have made a rather crappy game and sold it for more than $2'000.
It was made in 4 days I think or something like that.

In fact, I have sold more than 10 games in less than a year and average sponsorship money is much higher than $2'000.

Anyone who is telling you it's hard to earn money from flash games is clueless. (probably because they rely completely on FGL, in which case I understand them)

You can check out games I have sponsored here: http://mirosurabu.newgrounds.com

Games that have portal preloader/intro/logos are sponsored (Gimme5Games, Agame, Newgrounds, Armor Games, etc).

Others aren't.

there are specialty cases though: for instance, cartoon network sponsors games from flash developers directly, i believe

Adult Swim funds games and they require pitch to be sent. They are very strict too.

Many game developers don't use FGL or just don't rely on it. I believe these developers are earning much more than what's average on FGL anyways.

[Zaphos]

The average FGL sponsorship money is around $1'500 - $2'000. I believe that's what Andy was talking about. However, that's average only among games that actually sell. Counting games that don't sell it's much, much lower, probably around $500 or something.

Paul posted the stats above -- average price was 1484.10 for 2009 for the ~20% that sold; if you average that with the $0 for the ~80% that didn't sell you get ~$300 as the average price overall.

edit: whoops, my bad it was more like 30% in 2009 I think, so that should be more like $434 on average.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

@bvanevery: to get a job in the computer industry you still need some sort of a degree; you said earlier that if you don't have a hs degree, that you're stupid, which seems to be out of touch with reality. i agree that if you have a comp sci degree it's easy to get a job in the industry, but we aren't talking about that. the unreal aspect in particular comes from you saying that if you don't have a hs degree, you're stupid, but that isn't the truth at all: most people drop out of high school not because they're too stupid for it, but because they can't afford to keep going to it, and need to get a full time job to support their family, and don't have time to finish high school. also, if you're poor by choice, i wouldn't consider that really poor. that's like saying a college grad with a wealthy family who gives away all his money and goes to live with beggers for a year is poor: he's not, he's living like a poor person, but he isn't poor, he can go back to being well-off at any time, even if he has no money.

@miroslav: yes, i just posted FGL itself saying that 2k was definitely not the average, so you are saying they're wrong about their own stats?

[mirosurabu]

Nah, just that stats for people who don't rely on FGL might be a bit different. Me and anyone affiliated with me is able to get $2'000 bids easily.

It's easy to stumble upon totally crap game on FGL: either beginner's attempt at games or cheap derivative / clone stuff. Stats say that most games are rated 5-6 and I always thought 7 is lowest you can get on FGL. So, I'd say FGL is full of bad games and when I say bad I really mean bad. Consider that top FGL games are still not meeting the quality standards of some downloadable games.

Still, the smaller games I've sold are not THAT crap, they may not be the best games out there, but they certainly aren't cheap attempts at games.

[bvanevery]

@bvanevery: to get a job in the computer industry you still need some sort of a degree;

No you don't.  You need the ability to produce results.  I don't have a CS degree, I've gotten paid.  Grated, I did have a BA from a tough college (Cornell U.) and a minor in CS.  But after I graduated, I waited 4 years before I sought work in industry.  What did I do in the meantime?  Taught myself 3D graphics, C++, and Linux.  By the time I got into industry, I was overqualified for entry level positions and I made Senior Software Engineer within 6 months.  The computer industry is a great industry because whether you can produce or not is the only thing that matters in the end.

I'm not trying to dissuade people from getting CS degrees.  I'm reminding them that it's not what gets you a job.  That aforementioned friend of mine was dissed by the Cornell CS dept., they didn't think he had the chops or the grade points or some nonsense like that.  So he majored in EE instead.  Guess who got the entry level job at MS, during the last recession?  He did.  None of his CS peers did.  Practical beats pedigree, every time.  If you get a CS degree, make sure you actually know how to cut code.

you said earlier that if you don't have a hs degree, that you're stupid,

I enumerated 3 cases.  "Enumerated" is a programming word that you'd jolly well better know if you expect to get a job.  One of those cases was, you're stupid.  In which case, I don't care if you never work in the computer industry.  In fact I'll be glad.

most people drop out of high school not because they're too stupid for it, but because they can't afford to keep going to it, and need to get a full time job to support their family, and don't have time to finish high school.

Ok what urban ghetto and aspect of class struggle are we talking about now?  I hope you mean supporting their ailing Ma or Pa, or their orphaned brothers and sisters.  If they knocked someone up, that's a choice.  Maybe borne of environment, but it's still a choice.  You're supposed to use a rubber.

I've been poor the other way.  I've been rich and then poor.  That happened due to a lousy economy.  During my poverty I pursued my idealism, because that's how I'm put together.  I'm hardcore like that.  And I'm here to say, it's foolish.  In hindsight, I was poorer for longer than I needed to be.  Poverty wears down your expectations of what you can accomplish.  When the economy recovers, you don't notice, because you're still in survival mode working crappy jobs.  Survival mode hamstrings you for a long time.

also, if you're poor by choice, i wouldn't consider that really poor.

You're poor if you're financially stuck in your situation, if there's no one to bail you out, if it's totally up to you to claw your way out.  I've been there, done that.  The dot.com bust put me there, along with a lot of other people, once upon a time.  Eventually I came to my senses and clawed my way out.  It's easier for me to get out, because I'm smarter than 99% of the population, and I've had the best possible education, including how to work hard and stick with something.  There's no way I was ever going to sink to homelessness because I had too much of a head start in life to ever sink that low.  I also didn't have any substance abuse problems, chemical imbalances, or mental illnesses. The only way I'd end up homeless is if I got caught in a war zone, if I was a refugee.  In the USA would imply the end of civilization as we know it.

[deathtotheweird]

bvanevery shut up, this isnt the thread for that. take it elsewhere

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

@bvanevery: i didn't mention cs degrees specifically; i've a degree in biochemistry and i'm sure i can get a computer job if i wanted to, but people without hs degrees? the most they could get is data entry, if that. and i'm sure there are a few people with programming jobs without hs degrees, but probably largely freelance. in any case, the basic idea i don't think you're getting is that just because something is possible to do, doesn't mean that we should look down on people for failing to be supermen/superwomen. it's possible to make a billion dollars before you're 20 years old too, but we don't say 'you didn't do that, so you're stupid or lazy'.

i don't really feel the need to argue with someone who says stuff like: "I've been poor the other way.  I've been rich and then poor.  That happened due to a lousy economy.  During my poverty I pursued my idealism, because that's how I'm put together.  I'm hardcore like that." and "I'm smarter than 99% of the population" -- it should be self-evident to most people that someone who talks like that probably doesn't know what they're talking about (although it's also kind of funny).

but yeah, we're hijacking this thread to be about something other than the main topic, and i don't want to annoy the mods any further than this thread probably already has, so if you'd like to continue talking about it start a 'rich vs poor' topic or something.

[bvanevery]

@bvanevery: i didn't mention cs degrees specifically; i've a degree in biochemistry and i'm sure i can get a computer job if i wanted to, but people without hs degrees? the most they could get is data entry, if that. and i'm sure there are a few people with programming jobs without hs degrees, but probably largely freelance. in any case, the basic idea i don't think you're getting is that just because something is possible to do, doesn't mean that we should look down on people for failing to be supermen/superwomen. it's possible to make a billion dollars before you're 20 years old too, but we don't say 'you didn't do that, so you're stupid or lazy'.

I think you're bleeding your heart out for a corner case that isn't that relevant.  I said you can work 3..6 months a year for someone else and 9..6 months a year for yourself, if you get some computer industry experience and the economy doesn't suck.  You countered that some people are born into dire poverty and can't even finish HS.  Well fine, they probably have to fix those problems.  If they caused it themselves then they have responsibility for fixing it themselves.  If they just got seriously bad breaks, like their whole family died, well I hope the govt. does something for them but worst case it'll take some extra years for them to finish HS.  Then they're at the same place as everyone else, a few years later.  It's not really relevant.  It doesn't change the basic statement that game programmers can set themselves up to work seasonally on their own projects as I described.  Failure to do so is a life choice.

You're not even really talking about programmers.  You're talking about people who might have been programmers, if they hadn't been derailed by circumstances as a teenager.  Someone who plays with some code as a kid, but then suffers a family tragedy that keeps him out of school, and away from computers, is not a programmer.  If they're ever gonna get back on track they're gonna have to get a GED on their own time.  The internet can help people a lot nowadays, but it takes a certain amount of education or training to gain the self-discipline to finish things.  If you can't finish a GED you probably can't finish a program either.  College degrees and first jobs are important because they show you can finish something.

i don't really feel the need to argue with someone who says stuff like: "I've been poor the other way.  I've been rich and then poor.  That happened due to a lousy economy.  During my poverty I pursued my idealism, because that's how I'm put together.  I'm hardcore like that." and "I'm smarter than 99% of the population" -- it should be self-evident to most people that someone who talks like that probably doesn't know what they're talking about (although it's also kind of funny).

Oh really.  What's your relevant life experience on the subject of poverty?  You made any serious attempt at being a starving artist, musician, actor, or some such?  Computer people at least have highly sought after skills.  I have creative friends who don't have any such skills, who are in poverty.  Because, um, they didn't like CS enough to put up with it, or much of anything else for that matter.  They were smart enough, they just didn't like it.  People have to decide what they're gonna do with their own lives; some people just can't settle.

but yeah, we're hijacking this thread

The relevance is if you're only getting paid $2K for a lot of hours of work (do the math to figure out what "a lot" is) then you need to recognize that it's chump change, and shouldn't be the way you do business.  On the other hand, if you can make $2K for very little work, have at it.  That's smart.

[bvanevery]

bvanevery shut up, this isnt the thread for that. take it elsewhere

You know what I don't get?  I don't even know why this thread notification appeared in my email inbox in the 1st place.  It usually happens when I've posted or replied to something; not this time.  Maybe the cat stepped on my keyboard or something.  Anyways, this thread rapidly transitioned into a discussion of chump money.  In a long winded way, I'm making a very simple point: don't sign up for chump money.  You need to know what money actually is if you don't want people to make chumps out of you.  And people in this thread have told you what chump money is, so listen to them.

Signing off.

[Alistair Aitcheson]

Thanks for everyone who's posted up stats here. Very informative. I'm developing a Flash game at the moment with the intention of getting it sponsored, to see how it all works, so this is very helpful! For comparison, does anyone have any stats regarding developers who've sold game licenses outside FGL?

[moi]

I think having good connections with important people/site-owners in essential for getting something out of this "flash market".
If you just go to FGL hands in pockets, you're going to the slaughterhouse.
Being able to have someone from, say, armorgames for example, answer your email and give his opinion about your game (out of the 2000 emails they must receive every day) is what makes people succesful.

[mirosurabu]

I just started a log on FlashGameLicense forums, where I share everything I do to sponsor Edit Mode's game Lightmare. You probably played Lightmare, it was on the TIGSource frontpage.

Our goal for this game is $2'000.

I will share e-mails I send, stats, bids and complete decision-making process. I will be doing some cool stuff to find a sponsor for this like preparing a Halloween-themed landing page for Lightmare which will have a Bytejacker-footage on it and some other cool stuff. (I will be also raising awareness of other Halloween themed flash games that are currently looking for sponsor, such as 10 800 Zombies and Eversion).

Sure, confidential information will remain confidential and sponsors' names will be obfuscated.

You can view the topic here: http://www.flashgamelicense.com/view_thread.php?thread_id=20999&last_read_post_id=138510

Note you must have at least one approved game to view this topic.

Also, please do not share any of the information found in linked FGL topic with anyone, anywhere, anytime. (no copy-paste, paste-bins, quotes, etc)

[joulimousis]

Miroslav Malesevic. That's the kind of sharing that the community needs! Congrats and thanks.

[Charcoal]

I'll just quickly add my first experience with FGL.

I made a fairly average twist on the match-3 puzzle game. It took about 15 hours to make, over a few weeks (usually while I was in lectures).
Put it up on FGL and did some updates.
Over all I've had 13 sponsors look at it, about half of them stay long enough to play the game at least 5 times and I never had any bids or contact from any of them.
After a 2 months or so, I put it up on Kongregate  and so far have earned about $8 from it