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[KM]

I wrote an article about Indie Game devs and Music composers and why they believe in limiting beliefs in money and some ways to avoid it. The info in the article should help some people get carrer in game developing or music composing. Not the end all be all, but I think it's a step in the right direction. :D

Click here for the article.

[Christian Knudsen]

The usual option is putting up ads. This produces another fear of rejection. If you start making money your fear might be that you’re ‘selling out’ and people will reject you for ‘selling out’ as it’s not very ‘indie’. And now that you’ve ‘sold out’ you will lose friends you once had, people will mock and criticize you, and everyone will stop visiting your site.

What?

No offense, but your idea of what people's "fears" are seems pulled from thin air. I've certainly never come across this here at TIGSource or any other indie game communities. Quite the opposite, in fact. A lot of indie game makers actually hope to make money on their games, they don't fear it! And the game makers that actually manage to make good money on their games are held up as heros, not shunned from the community because they're no longer "indie". Just look at the Wolfire guys or Notch. There's even a fresh from the oven thread here in the forums started by speeder asking how he can make money off his game (to pay off debts).

Not all indie developers strive to make big on their games. A lot of them just enjoy making strange and experimental games that'll never make any money purely because they like making games. That doesn't mean they're afraid of making money.

I seriously don't understand where you got all this from...

[Alistair Aitcheson]

Maybe these words of motivation will be of use to some people who feel the way you suggest. Personally, I don't think this is a prevalent state of mind among indie developers.

I am trying to make a living from making video games. I see this as a business venture. To live off of video games I need to think as an entrepreneur. Sure, the reason I wanted to do this was so that I could have creative control over my work, explore a medium that intrigues me, and spend time using my abilities to the best way I see fit (in other words, do a job I love). But at the end of the day I need to make money from this if I am to survive, for it to be worth the effort and risk I put in.

Nevertheless, I'm sure if this helps one person take making a living from their work more seriously, then this article will have been worth writing. It was written with positive intentions, after all.

[KM]

True there area lot of games that are held up high for making it big and what not. Fears don't always have to be rationale, like some people are afraid of balloons. Some fears are more common and maybe more rationale but shouldn't be a fear, but the person still fears that situation. I think the majority of indie devs would support someone trying to monetize, but there's always those few people somewhere that try to degrade someone's self esteem for their own reasons. And it just takes a few bad comments before the person starts focusing on the negative and lose hope.

Also another reason you might not see it all that much is the same reason the article was made for. The people might be embarrassed or have an irrational fear that they may be judged if they told someone about what they had planned, that they would be shot down before they even could try doing what they had planned.

And hopefully people will be more likely to do what they want, like Alistair, without being afraid of what might happen, rationale fears or not. I don't intend it to be the end all be all article that gives people the motivation to propel them to greatness. Getting to that point takes a lot of work, no one article is gonna give anyone that much motivation, but every little bit counts.

And hopefully it helps.

[mirosurabu]

Yes, I can see the fear or just reluctance, especially among developers who post their projects on these boards. (: I used to feel the same before, but fortunately got over it with time.

And it's sad that your comment section turned into a 1-on-1 debate on whether art should be sold or not.

[KM]

Yes, I can see the fear or just reluctance, especially among developers who post their projects on these boards. (: I used to feel the same before, but fortunately got over it with time.

And it's sad that your comment section turned into a 1-on-1 debate on whether art should be sold or not.

Yeah, that wasn't supposed to be the point of the article at all. But sometimes people get way too angry about people making a living off their work. It's really the whole reason for the article. There was someone bashing Droqen and Fishbane for putting an ad in before you play the game, I think it was the version on newgrounds?

[Christian Knudsen]

Sure, if this article helps a single indie dev that's afraid of making money for some odd reason, it's justified. What I object to is the point presented in the article that this is a general problem in the indie community. From the very beginning of the article:

For a long while now I’ve noticed one thing about the indie community that is quite prevalent. That thing is the limiting belief of making money off one’s work.

I simply cannot recognize this viewpoint. That's why I object to it and feel that the premise of the article is pulled from thin air. It seems to paint a picture of the community that simply isn't correct.

[KM]

There's really a few things that determine if you'd notice a problem or not. It depends on who you hang out with, who's willing to admit it, and a person's perception.

The people in the community you hang out specifically might not have any fear of it, that's completely plausible.

Also since it's a fear, people may be embarrassed or humiliated if they admitted that they were afraid of what people would think if they asked for money. I bet there's a good chunk of people who are afraid of public speaking. Do I know of any? Not really. Have I asked? Nope. But before I wrote the article I've been asking and getting responses about the subject. I'd hear things like 'I don't think it's good enough sell.' or 'I don't think anyone will like it enough.' These don't say right out 'I'm afraid of what people will think of me if I ask for money' but it's easy to tell that there's some root in that type of thought.

And for perception. Here's a little example. Look around the room you are currently in and look for things that are 'red'. When you're looking for red, you see red everywhere you can in your room. It also works the other way, if you think there is no problem, you'll probably see much less of the problem than there is. Of course if I am looking for said problem, I'll see more than there probably is. Chances are the real answer is somewhere in between but that's still enough to be a problem to be addressed.

[Alistair Aitcheson]

There's really a few things that determine if you'd notice a problem or not. It depends on who you hang out with, who's willing to admit it, and a person's perception.

I think this hits the nail on the head. Perhaps this where a lot of the negative feelings around this topic have spawned from.

I personally have not seen the attitude you describe among indie developers, and neither has chrknudsen. Yet Miroslav and yourself see it as quite common. Allen, on the other hand, seems to share a very different point of view as to whether monetising should be an issue at all.

I think it depends on who you're speaking to and what they look from from their work. Do they see this as a career, as a hobby, or as an artistic endeavour? Each of these motivations seems to generate a different response to making money from indie games.

My only criticism of the article itself is that it's a bit long! Something shorter and snappier would probably be more engaging.

[Christian Knudsen]

I'd hear things like 'I don't think it's good enough sell.' or 'I don't think anyone will like it enough.' These don't say right out 'I'm afraid of what people will think of me if I ask for money' but it's easy to tell that there's some root in that type of thought.

Not necessarily. Not wanting to charge money for your game because you don't think it's good enough is an entirely valid standpoint and doesn't automatically mean that the person is afraid of what will happen if they charge for the game. Hundreds of indie games are made all the time. The simple truth is that only very few of them are good enough to charge money for. That's not a statement made in fear; that's a statement made by looking at the market of indie games and comparing the standard of those/your game with that of the games that sell. Most indie game makers just want people to play their games. Charging money for them will cause most potential players to never even try the game if it's not up to snuff.

It just seems to me that you're looking at the indie scene and noticing that a lot of people are giving their games away for free. For some reason you come to the conclusion that the majority of these people are giving their games away for free because they're afraid of charging for them. I see no factual basis for that claim, and so I think it's a misrepresentation of the scene/community.

Sure, there are probably some people that feel like what you describe, but that's not the majority like you make it seem in your article.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

i think this article has it backwards. people don't fear that others will think they're selling out and being less creative if they start charging people for their games and music. they fear that they *actually will* be selling out and being less creative if they charge money. which is in many cases a justified fear. i'd say this is far more common of a fear than fear than losing indie cred or whatever; most of the people i know who don't want to go commercial (such as increpare) don't really care about indie cred or reputation, they don't care what others will think of them, but they do create about creative freedom and what going commercial would mean for the games that they make

[Christian Knudsen]

That I definitely agree with.

[KM]

I can agree with a good chunk of that, but how would a person believe they are 'selling out' if they didn't care what others think? Especially if your game is self published. I don't see that in anyway betraying your integrity in order to make games for a living. I see not making money as 'selling out' as you're betraying your potential to make games as you properly envisioned them due to lack of resources such as time.

I can also see the other side where the allure of money can make you make gameplay design changes to make the game more appealing to a broader audience so that it sells better. There's probably a middle ground where the indie game dev can make the money they need to do game dev fulltime and not betray their vision for the game. Obtaining that sweet spot for a game dev would allow even more awesome indie games like Aquaria to come out.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

i'm not saying it's necessarily true, but the perception is that sometimes a game developer changes their games to suit their audience after they start charging for them, and isn't as free to put whatever they want in their games any more.

there is at least the perception and often a legal obligation that if you're charging someone for games, you're making games for them, rather than for yourself. so you have to polish them, do bug fixes, make menus, do testing to make sure there are no bugs, etc. -- you're obligated to do a lot more boring work on your games if you charge for them

in other words, not charging for games allows you the freedom to make terrible but creative games, games which nobody in their right mind would buy. that is an important freedom. charging for games restricts the range of the games you can make: instead of making whatever you want, you make games worth buying, which is a more narrow range

in any case of course i agree that there are advantages to selling games, i sell them myself. i'm just saying there are certain games that you can't make if you're selling games: namely, you can no longer intentionally make games which won't sell, but have to put in all the extra polish and effort necessary to make a game that people won't feel ripped off by if they buy it. having a lower limit on quality is still a limitation.

[KM]

You're right about the bug fixes and boring work, but if you take pride in your work chances are you might be doing those things anyway. As a musician if I want a better sound out of my songs, so I'll listen, tweak, relisten tweak over and over again just so I can get something I'm proud of. So some people might be doing that for free just because they want something to be proud of.

There's also models you could use that could still allow you to not sell the game it's self and leave it as is, and still make money. Some people live entirely off donations, if they like your games then they'll give you some money. If they don't like your game, then all they lost was time and not money. I think Cactus uses this model and it works well for him.

You could also use ads on the site. Make a 'advanced' remake of a game and only sell that one instead of the original (Cave Story, La-Mulana) or get sponsored. There's probably a thousand different ways you could make money off your game and not sell it. Some probably less scuzzy than others though.

I think taking a look at the model webcomics use is a great example. MSPaint Adventures and xkcd have some pretty 'bad' art (xkcd is mostly stick figures) but yet xkcd never forces anyone to pay anything but is still one of the most successful webcomics on the planet. And who would of thought a guy could make thousands and thousands each month off drawing stick figures? And he probably still does whatever he wants for a comic.

Or look at Kris Straub. He draws 2 webcomics that I know of. Starslip and Chainsaw Suit. He makes Starslip for the fans that he knows will be able to support them, and he draws Chainsaw Suit to draw basically anything he damn well pleases. Chainsaw suit might not be more popular, but it's still bringing him a good amount of money. So you could have it both ways. And I'm sure all these alternatives are better than working somewhere you hate, where you're basically a walking advertisement for the company and catch crap from your boss for every little thing and there's nothing you can do about it.

So unfortunately what I'm getting at is that the world is not ideal, so sacrifices usually have to be made one way or another. I agree that people should be able to make games anyway they want, but they also have to make money to live, so there's gonna have to be some give one way or another.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

with music it's different since there's probably more of an audience for experimental music vs experimental games. but even so, as a musician, you couldn't really spend a year to make a song that's 40 hours long and expect people to buy it, people tend to buy shorter 2-4 minute songs. whereas if you made music as a hobby rather than a profession, you *could* spend all year on a 40 hour song. but overall i think that commercial music vs free music is less limiting than commercial games vs free games: commercial games are more uniform than commercial music is

you're wrong about cactus: he doesn't make much in donations and doesn't live off of donations. he hardly makes anything with his games at all; despite being arguably the most famous freeware developer in the world (and definitely the most famous game maker user) he makes far less money with his games than pretty much everyone who makes commercial game maker games (no matter how mediocre)

also you seem to be implying that everyone who makes games or music wants to do it as a career; that's not always true. there are a lot of hobbyists, and there should be a lot of hobbyists. there's nothing wrong with making games or music for free as a hobby rather than a profession.

but my main point was that, speaking as someone who has been making freeware for 15 years and commercial games for 3, you *do* sometimes lose some freedoms when you switch over from hobbyist to full time indie, no matter how you sell your games, and some people are rightly afraid of that switch. you also gain other freedoms. neither is the best choice for everyone

[KM]

While a 40 hour song would of been quite a challenge back in the days when all media was physical, I can see people buying songs like that now. The person making could very well find a niche that would support them for making music like that. Like Paul Okenfold who used to make songs that were a CD long. And you're right about the commercial being more successful, people will write songs just to be catchy to make money. But not everyone has to be a millionaire off their work. If you make enough money to pay the bills and make the same amount if you were working a day job then you could still have almost all of your artistic freedom, if not all. I just see that as a better alternative to work a day job and then coming home and not having the energy to do anything constructive because you're burnt out.

It sucks to hear that about cactus. I really like some of his games and he deserves a lot more support. And I took a swing and missed there, I can only take guesses to what people really make unless they straight out tell people. Sorry about that.

I'm not implying everyone should make it a career, but you shouldn't feel like there is an impassible barrier to entry if you do want to make it your career. The article isn't targeted at those people regardless, no one is going to take the advice if they don't want to make it anything more than something fun to do in their spare time. And they shouldn't take the advice. But if they want to, they shouldn't be scared to go for it.

I agree with you about the freedoms, and that's just something to accept if you'll willing to go for what you want. Like if you become rich and famous, you're guaranteed to lose privacy (unless you're Bill Watterson of course.) It's up to the individual to decide what is worth giving up to gain what they want. Hopefully people will go out and do whatever it takes to make the game that they envision.

[MaloEspada]

stuff

Maybe you could take less guesses, then? Cause pretty much all of yours so far have missed.

You have to realize that YOUR truth is not the same as in the rest of the community. Not everyone wants to make games as carreer, not everyone is afraid of 'losing indie cred', not everyone wants to make games that SELL TONS.

There are people who make games just to try stuff out, or just to make a game based on something that they like. There are countless small competitions in various forums that show that kind of stuff. Even here, we have annual competitions that the goal is to make a game based on a certain theme, not "make a game and sell it11!1!1". And in those competitions, countless games are born that would never be a 'hit'.

Games can be your source of income, sure, but some of us just prefer it as a source of fun.

[Christian Knudsen]

Not to mention, it's really freakin' hard to make a game and actually be able to live off it's income -- or even just get a fair bit of money through donations. Only very few game makers are good/lucky enough to be able to do that. To say that you just need to buy a few ads or slap a donation button on your website to make money off your game shows a complete lack of understanding of how the (indie) gaming business works. If it was that easy, plenty of people would do it. Believe me, it's not fear holding them back, it's an understanding of the fact that it's not as easy as you make it sound.

[KM]

rdein

Did you come in here to discuss the topic or did you just come in here to troll me? Because it looks like you haven't read anything me or Paul have said it this thread. Don't you have something better to do with your time, like make a game?

Not to mention, it's really freakin' hard to make a game and actually be able to live off it's income -- or even just get a fair bit of money through donations. Only very few game makers are good/lucky enough to be able to do that. To say that you just need to buy a few ads or slap a donation button on your website to make money off your game shows a complete lack of understanding of how the (indie) gaming business works. If it was that easy, plenty of people would do it. Believe me, it's not fear holding them back, it's an understanding of the fact that it's not as easy as you make it sound.

I never said it was easy to make money of your games, it take a lot of hard work and dedication. And yes, if you leave everything up to luck, then you probably will fail. Why not educate yourself in business practices? You can't expect to be good at anything if you don't try. Imagine if all the developer went 'this is too hard to make games, I'm just gonna give up.' That's the kind of attitude your showing to the community, that when things get tough, you give up instead of perservering. If you give up beofre even trying, anything is impossible.