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[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

tim langdell got a way with it for a while, that is true, but now the internet exists. in the 80s and early 90s people could do whatever they wanted without fear of it transferring into the future, because there wasn't as permanent a record of the past. now everything is saved. politicians are just beginning to learn this: in the past they could say one thing and then say another, but now in the era of youtube and cell phone cameras and facebook and twitter people hold them accountable to their promises. google is a very powerful tool, and doesn't care all that much if a site about you was written 10 years ago or yesterday (i know it weighs one more heavily, but the old stuff sticks around).

for instance, look up adam coate in google. what do you get? first result: http://forums.tigsource.com/index.php?topic=9905.0 which then links to http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/4213/pondering_indie_spirit_derek_yu_.php -- any future employer of his, any future fiance, or whatever, will look up his name in google and see that. he can't get away from it. maybe it won't be the #1 result for all time, but it'll be out there. it also is kind of funny that you're friends with adam coate, but when i read that i thought "suddenly it all makes sense".

of course you're a bit smarter than adam coate in that he used his real name and you use "bvanevery" because nobody would want the kind of stuff you've done and said attached to their real name.

[RCIX]

Take it to PMs guys. This is not what the thread is about.
/thread derailment
What about doing something similar to but different from Epic Win? Like maybe a strategy-game-themed todo list?

[namre]

@RCIX, yeah, after the comments I've received because of this thread, I now have a good plan of where to steer my idea. Basically, I'm gonna review what made EpicWin, uh, epic. And use what I have learned to push the concept further.

A strategy-game-themed todo list seems like a good idea!

[moi]

With the time wasted in this thread you could have earned millions if you were notch.

[bvanevery]

tim langdell got a way with it for a while, that is true, but now the internet exists. in the 80s and early 90s people could do whatever they wanted without fear of it transferring into the future, because there wasn't as permanent a record of the past. now everything is saved. politicians are just beginning to learn this: in the past they could say one thing and then say another, but now in the era of youtube and cell phone cameras and facebook and twitter people hold them accountable to their promises. google is a very powerful tool, and doesn't care all that much if a site about you was written 10 years ago or yesterday (i know it weighs one more heavily, but the old stuff sticks around).

In politics, this might matter more, because a lot of people in the psychological Least Common Denominator are going to be voting for you.  I have my doubts that it's going to matter as much as you think.  It may not be easy for politicians to lie with impunity as they did in the past, but I'm sure that the Art of Spin will remain alive and well indefinitely.  One of the hallmarks of a good social manipulator, is they're better at it than people who think it's "not ok" to do it.  There's a reason that such socially intelligent people get farther ahead in society.  Namely, that this is half of how the human brain evolved, it's one of the major driving factors in human evolution.  No, we didn't just make tools, we used each other as tools.

In private life, the real minefield is "getting into it" with some internet outlier and not moving on.  Internet forums attract all kinds of dysfunction, including people who will outright stalk you, because you represent something "bad" to their own personal demons.  If you realize, however, that internet forums don't actually have any hold over you, that you don't have to interact with any given group of people, and indeed that lots of people in the real business world don't spend any time on internet forums at all, it's easy to put these things in perspective and move on with your life.  There's nothing an indie developer should fundamentally fear about forums, let alone for the mere act of making a game that's derivative of some other game.

for instance, look up adam coate in google. what do you get? first result: http://forums.tigsource.com/index.php?topic=9905.0 which then links to http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/4213/pondering_indie_spirit_derek_yu_.php

Oh yeah, that's how I met him!  Thanks for reminding me of that.  Now I know why I'm friends with him, because once upon a time I wasn't an asshole to him.  If you think someone on the internet is being an asshole, you have a couple of options.  You can scream about how he's an asshole, which pretty makes you an asshole as well.  That's pretty much par for the course on the internet.  Or, you can see the good in people, and interact successfully with them.  Some of us have that capacity and others don't, either because we're older and different things are important to us, or psychologically we're just put together differently.  Nothing about Adam Coate ever said to me, "dealbreaker as a human being."  And as you know, I have some long term perspective on where "forum drama" comes from.

-- any future employer of his, any future fiance, or whatever, will look up his name in google and see that. he can't get away from it.

Hey if I had money I'd hire him.  And yes he can get away from it.  He already did, as an indie game developer.  You really expect Indies to respond to this kind of social gloom and doom?  Indies do what they jolly well please.  Sometimes it's pretty amazing to see people thinking about Indies as some kind of social club, where they gotta fit in.  They don't!  That's the point!

of course you're a bit smarter than adam coate in that he used his real name and you use "bvanevery" because nobody would want the kind of stuff you've done and said attached to their real name.

Brandon Van Every is my real name.  It's been signed on any mailing list where signing emails is customary.  What exactly do you think I'm hiding?  Here, you are demonstrating that we are very different kinds of people, socially speaking.  You are very much afraid of things that clearly I am not afraid of.  You find people gravely offensive that I clearly do not.  I could steer you towards all sorts of psychological tests and managerial theories about this sort of thing, but I'm sure right now that would be lost on you, and you're capable of doing your own research anyways.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

to quote kermit the frog, what you just said is 100% wrong, e.g. i'm known for being a vocal opponent of the indie social club and for saying crazy things that everyone objects to.

but in any case yes RCIX we seem to be getting off topic. but this topic is relevant to this topic in this way: does doing immoral things like stealing someone's ideas catch up with you? or can you make money and be successful despite being an awful person? the answer is of course "yes" (to both). you can be successful despite a bad rep, but it is always a hinderance and does always catch up with you in little ways which make your life harder.

just look at zynga: yes they're making a ton of money, but yes they are suffering some consequences for their actions too -- for instance, many people advise their friends not to work at zynga, so they're losing out on a lot of good people who would otherwise have worked for them.

also, re "There's nothing an indie developer should fundamentally fear about forums" i could point out many cases where an indie has said something bad about a publisher or sponsor on a forum only to have it come back to them. there exist secret forums for indies away from the public eye to avoid exactly that problem.

[bvanevery]

Take it to PMs guys.

No no no no no God no don't do that.  Last guy who PMed me about how irritated he was with me, he couldn't gracefully let go even when I was polite with him.  I had to put him on my Ignorelist.

This is not what the thread is about.
/thread derailment

Apologies for the long windedness. The points are:

• The vast majority of game developers clone games.
• Regardless, it doesn't matter what people in forums think of you.
• Your career is your own, not some social committee's.  It will change as you change, there's nothing permanent about it.
• So stop living in fear and make your game already.  Nothing bad will happen.  Really.

[RCIX]

Regardless, it doesn't matter what people in forums think of you.

Which is why you're acting so rude?

[bvanevery]

does doing immoral things like stealing someone's ideas catch up with you?

This is also a false premise.  Most game ideas aren't owned by anyone, as gamedom is mostly a history of copying.  Even if someone has a genuinely original idea, ideas are not protected under Copyright law, only their concrete expression.  The "immorality" that you suggest here is totally in the realm of the perceived, and is a lot like getting worked up over skinny dipping.  My advice is to get over the headspace and get on with making your game.

just look at zynga: yes they're making a ton of money, but yes they are suffering some consequences for their actions too -- for instance, many people advise their friends not to work at zynga, so they're losing out on a lot of good people who would otherwise have worked for them.

Man if that's the metric, I'm going to advise you not to work much of anywhere in the game industry.  Too much work for too low pay, worker exploitation is rampant, and you rarely get the creative freedom you were hoping to get.  Why bother?  If it's going to turn into a dull job, at least get paid a lot of money for what you're doing, so that you have the personal bankroll to go do your own Indie thing yourself.

also, re "There's nothing an indie developer should fundamentally fear about forums" i could point out many cases where an indie has said something bad about a publisher or sponsor on a forum only to have it come back to them.

Go ahead and point them out then.  Otherwise, don't expect people to fear a cabal.

[bvanevery]

Regardless, it doesn't matter what people in forums think of you.

Which is why you're acting so rude?

If someone makes personal attacks, I make it expensive for them.  I never take them lying down.  I never make personal attacks either.  Go over this thread and ask yourself where the trouble started.

[Hangedman]

You sound like someone trying to talk himself out of making porn.

Right about here.
Better luck next thread.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

i didn't say copying ideas though, i said stealing them. copying an idea is what sonic did to mario. stealing an idea is what the great giana sisters did to mario. you've good rhetorical skills, though.


(great giana sisters screenshot)

also the core thing to get about immorality is of course not what people think of you. things aren't immoral because other people think they are bad things to do. things are immoral because they hurt people: both the people the immorality is done to, and the person who does them.

so i totally agree with the 'don't worry what people think if it's not really a bad thing to do' thing, but i don't agree with the 'there are no bad things to do' thing, because of course there are actions which harm people.

also i apologize if you perceived anything that i said as a personal attack, i only meant to use it as an example (and a particularly ironic one). i'm not attacking you at all, i'm just using you as an example of someone who has done things which have harmed people in the past which a few people still remember and hold against you. it's not intended a personal attack at all to mention that, just as an example which may help to convince you that sometimes a bad reputation gained on forums can be harmful.

anyway, as for other things indies have done on forums which have been harmful, one example is how glial-gamer (a regular here and a prominent flash game developer) said something bad about a sponsor on a forum, and after that that sponsor refused to sponsor any of his future games.

similarly, on the indiegamer.com forums, there are people who have said bad things about big fish games, and then submitted their games to big fish games and gotten rejected, with the things they said on the forum cited.

so i do think there are things you have to watch out for regarding what you say on forums.

[deathtotheweird]

googling your name is incredibly easy to find people who agree with what many of us feel about you

http://www.cmake.org/pipermail/cmake/2008-March/020342.html

You are a disruptive troll, and you leave your stink anywhere you post. Why do you think this is? I don't see any benefit from you posting with that kind of attitude, I find it difficult to want to listen to any of your viewpoints. It's annoying and really really boring.

[bvanevery]

i didn't say copying ideas though, i said stealing them. copying an idea is what sonic did to mario. stealing an idea is what the great giana sisters did to mario.

you've good rhetorical skills, though.

This isn't about my rhetorical skills - which as you know, are considerable.  This is about what you and I view as morality or legality.  The screenshot you've shown of a game "like Mario" is perfectly legal.  The art assets aren't stolen from Mario, they are original assets, however similar they may appear to a Mario game.  Copyright law does not protect the idea of a Mario style game, only the concrete expression of the game.

Call To Power II is 90% similar to Civilization II.  It added a stack limit of 12 units, an automated line dance for combat resolution between stacks, and a few tech variations.  Otherwise, pretty much the same game.  Their game design is perfectly legal.  What wasn't legal, was the Trademark violation.  They started life as "Civilization: Call To Power," which was an intent to trade upon the name of the previously established "Sid Meier's Civilization" franchise.  IIRC they settled out of court but there's no doubt in my mind that they would have lost the case.

You see a big distance between what's legal and what's ethical.  In this particular case, I don't.  To put it another way, ideas are a dime a dozen.

things are immoral because they hurt people: both the people the immorality is done to, and the person who does them.

Since the law is clear, you seem to be advocating trade protectionism as opposed to free market mechanism.  As a competing game developer, why should I put up with your notion of what "the same game" is?  Let's say the Minecraft guy makes a million dollars on his game.  Are other developers not supposed to clone his game and cash in, for "morality?"  Why is the Minecraft guy entitled to be a millionaire and others aren't?  Are you going to assert some kind of fundamental capitalist property right, that if you've got money, you're the only one entitled to have money?  What do you think hardcore Socialists and Communists have to say about that?

also i apologize if you perceived anything that i said as a personal attack, i only meant to use it as an example (and a particularly ironic one). i'm not attacking you at all, i'm just using you as an example of someone who has done things which have harmed people in the past which a few people still remember and hold against you. it's not intended a personal attack at all to mention that, just as an example which may help to convince you that sometimes a bad reputation gained on forums can be harmful.

You said my posts 6 years ago were stupid, that you hold it against me, and that other people hold it against me.  You're assailing my intellect, my character, and making your long term grudge known to me.  If you don't understand why those are personal attacks, you need to spend time thinking about such things.  I do accept your apology however.

anyway, as for other things indies have done on forums which have been harmful, one example is how glial-gamer (a regular here and a prominent flash game developer) said something bad about a sponsor on a forum, and after that that sponsor refused to sponsor any of his future games.

So he gets another sponsor.  Or he doesn't ever get any sponsors.  Big deal, Indies make games without sponsors all the time.  It's a consequence, but it's hardly a requirement for making games.

similarly, on the indiegamer.com forums, there are people who have said bad things about big fish games, and then submitted their games to big fish games and gotten rejected, with the things they said on the forum cited.

Again, so what?  If you value your opinions more than having your game on Big Fish, then you live with the consequences.  I don't even want to make the kinds of games that Big Fish has on their site, nor submit to their generic co-option of brand identity, so pissing off Big Fish would never bother me personally.

[bento_smile]

I am drunk, and therefore could not be arsed to read the entire thread beyond some rather thin justifications, but I believe that the OP should do whatever he feels morally comfortable doing. As it appears to be that he has reservations about ripping off Epic Win, and feels that this might damage his reputation, I would support him in undergoing his endeavour with as much caution as he can (as artists and designers are a prickly bunch. There is nothing worse than getting on the wrong side of artist injustice on the internet).

Edit: I see this as not an issue of what you CAN do, but what you SHOULD do. These are different things.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

@bvanevery

i agree that speaking your mind and being honest are sometimes more important than the negative consequences of what you say, and that they seldom permanently damage one's career, but i think it's foolish to suggest that there are never any negative consequences to what people say. e.g. a bad reputation is not something that can destroy your career (unless it gets as bad as langdell's), but it is something of an annoyance even when it doesn't.

actually in fact the courts found giana sisters was too similar to mario bros to come to market, and that game was never released. the court found that it broke nintendo's trademarks because it was too easily confused with super mario bros. the law says that something can infringe copyright even when it doesn't copy and paste assets.

[gimymblert]

things are immoral because they hurt people: both the people the immorality is done to, and the person who does them.

Since the law is clear, you seem to be advocating trade protectionism as opposed to free market mechanism.  As a competing game developer, why should I put up with your notion of what "the same game" is?  Let's say the Minecraft guy makes a million dollars on his game.  Are other developers not supposed to clone his game and cash in, for "morality?"  Why is the Minecraft guy entitled to be a millionaire and others aren't?  Are you going to assert some kind of fundamental capitalist property right, that if you've got money, you're the only one entitled to have money?  What do you think hardcore Socialists and Communists have to say about that?

Thrust is a valuable resource fuel by morals, so it makes capitalistic sense. You could prevent yourself valuable help if no one thrust you. It makes sense because social are still resource in a capitalistic sense! That's what we call politics.

EDIT: Tell him about John Romero.

[Melly]

This thread isn't about bvanavery's internet history, and I advise everyone involved to cease with that bit of derailing.

Also guys try to keep from double-posting.

[bvanevery]

You are a disruptive troll,

And if you gave an accurate age in your forum profile, I was battling on Usenet while you were still in nursery school.  Who are you to teach your grandpa how to suck eggs? 

Here's a heads up: if you care enough about anything in society to argue about it, you're gonna piss many people off.  That's the hazard of intellectual work, it goes with the territory.  I've battled people over many things in many venues: online forums, coffee houses, bars over beer (alcohol is a big complicator), fronts of grocery stores, public parks, libraries, and post offices.  I've had security guards and police in those battles and I've even been falsely arrested for it.  Where "falsely" means I was doing what I was legally entitled to do, charges were dropped, I could have sued over how I was treated, but a lawyer advised me there wasn't any money in it.

The point is, learn to value a difference of opinion before calling anything you don't understand or don't like a troll.  You haven't even had enough of a career yet to know why I'm saying the things I am.  You live in a great country, the USA, where people have the Constitutional right to speak their minds.  Use it to expand your mind, instead of shouting down whatever is rubbing you the wrong way.

[Hangedman]

Better luck next thread.