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[bvanevery]

@bvanevery
actually in fact the courts found giana sisters was too similar to mario bros to come to market, and that game was never released. the court found that it broke nintendo's trademarks because it was too easily confused with super mario bros.

But that's trademark law not copyright law.  It would depend entirely upon what Nintendo set aside as conspicuous protected marks.  Has nothing to do with whether the flowers in the game look the same.  Example: I don't think the Minecraft guy is going to get away with his name if Blizzard takes notice of him.  It's too similar to the well known marks "WarCraft" and "StarCraft."  Even if he does, I'm not going to get away with cloning his game and calling it "Mineycraft."  He'd win any court case, assuming he actually registered his trademark and defended it, as the law requires him to do.

the law says that something can infringe copyright even when it doesn't copy and paste assets.

I doubt you can find any court case in gamedom that wasn't outright blatant theft of assets.

[deathtotheweird]

What I am trying to say is that you can argue without coming off like a total jerk. Would it kill you to be a little more courteous when arguing with someone? You're just boring, and every thread you post in I loathe to read. You do disrupt nearly every thread you post in, I don't see how you could disagree with me. I value your opinions just fine, I don't have any problems with your opinions. I have problems with the way you express your opinions. Sure you have every right to be a total dick, but why do it? You certainly seem to have a predilection towards being one, you come at arguments like they are to be a battle to be won, which is very off-putting. Why don't you calm down instead of being such a jerk?

Comments like "You sound like someone trying to talk himself out of making porn." aren't very useful or constructive, it is not intelligent debate it's just you being a cock.

[bvanevery]

Thrust is a valuable resource fuel by morals, so it makes capitalistic sense. You could prevent yourself valuable help if no one thrust you. It makes sense because social are still resource in a capitalistic sense! That's what we call politics.

My point is that a priori fear about who will trust you, somewhere down the line, should not stop you from making a game now.  It's the cart before the horse.

EDIT: Tell him about John Romero.

Yes, but, the OP should have such luck?  John Romero made games in an era where the industry was full of rock stars, whose credentials were never checked as to whether they could actually produce.  The era of millions being thrown at name brand designers ended awhile ago.  It could come back... go study Led Zeppelin as to the history of "big money contracts."  Such contacts didn't exist in the music industry before them.

[Hangedman]

Also, no free speech on the internet.
This isn't the US, it's a Derektatorship.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

I doubt you can find any court case in gamedom that wasn't outright blatant theft of assets.

not a perfect case, but this recent one is close:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mafia_Wars#Lawsuit

this one didn't reach fruition, but mob wars sued mafia wars for copyright infringement due to similarities between the two games (no assets were stolen, but the games were extremely similar). zynga, perhaps knowing they were going to lose, or perhaps not wanting to risk it, settled for something like 7-9 million dollars (which was almost as bad as losing because they were being sued for 10 million dollars).

[RCIX]

What I am trying to say is that you can argue without coming off like a total jerk. Would it kill you to be a little more courteous when arguing with someone? You're just boring, and every thread you post in I loathe to read. You do disrupt nearly every thread you post in, I don't see how you could disagree with me. I value your opinions just fine, I don't have any problems with your opinions. I have problems with the way you express your opinions. Sure you have every right to be a total dick, but why do it? You certainly seem to have a predilection towards being one, you come at arguments like they are to be a battle to be won, which is very off-putting. Why don't you calm down instead of being such a jerk?

QFT
(i was going to post something similar, but i figures since he already did...)

[bvanevery]

What I am trying to say is that you can argue without coming off like a total jerk. Would it kill you to be a little more courteous when arguing with someone? You're just boring, and every thread you post in I loathe to read.

If that's what you want out of people, lead by example.  Don't expect anyone to change their behavior for you, when you do exactly what you say someone else shouldn't do, and worse I might add.

Comments like "You sound like someone trying to talk himself out of making porn." aren't very useful or constructive, it is not intelligent debate it's just you being a cock.

I see that you didn't understand or appreciate the wisdom behind that earthy phrase, but it is actually helpful advice.  I will try to explain.  If you really want to make porn, but you're having some kind of squeamishness about it, about what your church or girlfriend or parents or society or whoever "will think of you," you need to get over it, crank up the camera, and stick your dick in there.  Don't lie to yourself about what you want to do, go do it.  Don't be afraid about other people think.  Unless you live somewhere where they really will kill you, like "honor killings" if you're a woman who's had premarital sex in some Muslim countries or something like that.  In some parts of the world, people are very tightly wound.  In which case my advice would be, first move to a free society, then do what you want.

If you don't want to make pornography, but think you should make pornography, for some reason like your business partners or profit incentive or what sells or whatnot, that's a different problem.  Examine what makes you uncomfortable about pornography and whether that's a dealbreaker for you.  If it is, then fine, break the deal.  In either case the message is the same: do things on your terms, according to what you want to do.  Not what you're worried about other people thinking about you.

[bvanevery]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mafia_Wars#Lawsuit

I'm not going to automatically believe either side here.  There's buttloads of money at stake here, which has a profound skewing effect upon the merits of cases.  I'm looking around for comparison screenshots, but especially after Tim Langdell, I know the difference between a court of law and a court of opinion.

[RCIX]

What I am trying to say is that you can argue without coming off like a total jerk. Would it kill you to be a little more courteous when arguing with someone? You're just boring, and every thread you post in I loathe to read.

If that's what you want out of people, lead by example.  Don't expect anyone to change their behavior for you, when you do exactly what you say someone else shouldn't do, and worse I might add.

Comments like "You sound like someone trying to talk himself out of making porn." aren't very useful or constructive, it is not intelligent debate it's just you being a cock.

I see that you didn't understand or appreciate the wisdom behind that earthy phrase, but it is actually helpful advice.  I will try to explain.  If you really want to make porn, but you're having some kind of squeamishness about it, about what your church or girlfriend or parents or society or whoever "will think of you," you need to get over it, crank up the camera, and stick your dick in there.  Don't lie to yourself about what you want to do, go do it.  Don't be afraid about other people think.  Unless you live somewhere where they really will kill you, like "honor killings" if you're a woman who's had premarital sex in some Muslim countries or something like that.  In some parts of the world, people are very tightly wound.  In which case my advice would be, first move to a free society, then do what you want.

If you don't want to make pornography, but think you should make pornography, for some reason like your business partners or profit incentive or what sells or whatnot, that's a different problem.  Examine what makes you uncomfortable about pornography and whether that's a dealbreaker for you.  If it is, then fine, break the deal.  In either case the message is the same: do things on your terms, according to what you want to do.  Not what you're worried about other people thinking about you.

The only one he's coming off as a jerk as is to you. He may be a bit crude, but he raises a perfectly valid point. The way you put it is about the worst possible way i can think of. Simply explaining that in the first place (and using a better example, like the issue that was at hand) would have gone a long way to non-jerkiness.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

I'm not going to automatically believe either side here.  There's buttloads of money at stake here, which has a profound skewing effect upon the merits of cases.  I'm looking around for comparison screenshots, but especially after Tim Langdell, I know the difference between a court of law and a court of opinion.

both are text-based games so screenshot comparisons may not help much, but here:





note similarities though in the setup if the gui: identical stats, nearly identical placement of those stats, nearly identical tabs, etc., it looks like a different skin of the same game. both having a 'godfather' tab is particularly clone-like because i know of no other game with a 'godfather' tab (whereas health, stamina, energy, experience, and level are at least common, even if they're in the exact same order).

[s0]

Y'know, bvanevery, for a preciously short amount of time, we had an interesting, discussion going in the "Death of deep games" thread. That is until you decided to switch to your aggressive, condescending tone for whatever reason, at which point I stopped replying to you. As other posters here have already said, it's not your opinions that annoy people, it's the way you communicate them to others.

[bvanevery]

The only one he's coming off as a jerk as is to you. He may be a bit crude, but he raises a perfectly valid point. The way you put it is about the worst possible way i can think of. Simply explaining that in the first place (and using a better example, like the issue that was at hand) would have gone a long way to non-jerkiness.

Except, that showing someone how to be a jerk, is probably what someone who's overly worried about other people's sensibilities needs to hear.  People like that often need to hear that yes, there are people around who think it's perfectly ok to be "jerks," that don't even agree with everyone else about what's jerky and what's not.

In politics, there's a time for moderate nuanced messages, and a time for protest bullhorns.  In theater, you wear makeup and exaggerate your facial expressions so that people in the 3rd tier balcony can see that you have an emotion.  I could have said, "Just clone the damn game already.  You're worried over nothing."  Would it have made the point?  Somehow I doubt it.  The whys are important, and how ever ugly the ensuing thread may have become, it certainly dredged up a lot of whys.  The big Why is "what is this horrible consequence that you think is going to happen?  What sky is going to fall?"

Will the legal sky fall? No, not if you obey the law.

Will the customer sky fall?  No, people buy stuff.

Will the employer sky fall?  No, you can make money yourself.  And, as was pointed out, most employers value cloning and productivity over original thought.

Will the social approval sky fall?  No, you can make new friends.  If those other people were your friends to begin with, which is doubtful.

[Derek]

If you're starting out with no ideas other than what someone else has come up with and executed, then I wouldn't expect the game to turn out that great.

And Brandon... I think at this point we need to know how your own advice has worked out for you so far. So spill the beans - have you leveraged your experience and knowledge about video games, the law, ethics, politics, and human psychology into a vast personal wealth and/or a hot wife?

[bvanevery]

note similarities though in the setup if the gui: identical stats, nearly identical placement of those stats, nearly identical tabs, etc., it looks like a different skin of the same game. both having a 'godfather' tab is particularly clone-like because i know of no other game with a 'godfather' tab (whereas health, stamina, energy, experience, and level are at least common, even if they're in the exact same order).

At a glance, the skins and art assets are different.  GUI "look and feel" lawsuits died in the early Apple era, they are not protectable.  I haven't played the games so I can't comment on the game mechanics.  Like I said before, Call To Power II is 90% like Civ II.  Just because someone sued and settled doesn't prove the merit of the case.  I've read some forum opinions on this case.  Some point out that mob hit games were happening on BBSes a long time ago, and that neither game is original.  Others pointed out that there's only so many ways one can design a computer football game, that there will be similarities.  Others pointed out that Facebook itself has UI constraints, resulting in similarities.

[bvanevery]

And Brandon... I think at this point we need to know how your own advice has worked out for you so far. So spill the beans - have you leveraged your experience and knowledge about video games, the law, ethics, politics, and human psychology into a vast personal wealth

Nope.  I have a historical pattern of valuing ideology more than money.  Which is why I'll actually debate anything on forums like this.  If I was first and foremost a moneygrubber, like most businesspeople I wouldn't be wasting my time here.

and/or a hot wife?

That's a boggling question.  If you personally value white picket fences and 2.2 children, or looks over other traits in a mate, you're welcome to pursue those life ambitions.  It won't matter to much of anyone when you're dead.

[RCIX]

Except, that showing someone how to be a jerk, is probably what someone who's overly worried about other people's sensibilities needs to hear.  People like that often need to hear that yes, there are people around who think it's perfectly ok to be "jerks," that don't even agree with everyone else about what's jerky and what's not.

Huh? near as i can tell, this is saying that you think "i don't want you to be a jerk because i think i'll look bad if i don't care", which is not the case. I want you to not be a jerk because i can't have a reasonable discussion with you when you are. That, and you're being rude.

In politics, there's a time for moderate nuanced messages, and a time for protest bullhorns.  In theater, you wear makeup and exaggerate your facial expressions so that people in the 3rd tier balcony can see that you have an emotion.  I could have said, "Just clone the damn game already.  You're worried over nothing."  Would it have made the point?  Somehow I doubt it.  The whys are important, and how ever ugly the ensuing thread may have become, it certainly dredged up a lot of whys.  The big Why is "what is this horrible consequence that you think is going to happen?  What sky is going to fall?"

Why couldn't you have said "what is this horrible consequence that you think is going to happen?  What sky is going to fall?"? That gets across the exact same point, without being a jerk and crude about it.

Will the social approval sky fall?  No, you can make new friends.  If those other people were your friends to begin with, which is doubtful.

A good friend will (nicely) point out that you're being nasty. A good friend will also listen to the advice of his friends even if they don't necessarily like what they're hearing.

[Derek]

It won't matter to much of anyone when you're dead.

I thought your ideology was based around not caring what people thought of you in the future.

[bvanevery]

Y'know, bvanevery, for a preciously short amount of time, we had an interesting, discussion going in the "Death of deep games" thread. That is until you decided to switch to your aggressive, condescending tone for whatever reason, at which point I stopped replying to you. As other posters here have already said, it's not your opinions that annoy people, it's the way you communicate them to others.

I'm not a patient debator.  I become condescending when I can't believe how bad something put in front of me is.  At the point you left, you had offered the Oilfurnace cartoon.  It's good artwork but it is not good narrative.  That's as charitable as I can be about it.  If you bring it to comic strip authoring forums, they will tear it apart as well.  It's getting to the point where I think debating narrative with "game designers at large" is pointless.  It's not enough to be a game desginer, people really need to know something about writing.  They need to read some books on it and spend some time practicing it.  Otherwise, they are just clueless about writing, and it leads to a Reality TV ghetto of game design.  Every player's experience becomes a Story [TM], which pretty well renders the term meaningless.

[bvanevery]

It won't matter to much of anyone when you're dead.

I thought your ideology was based around not caring what people thought of you in the future.

Ideology and career are distinct.  Careers IMO are overrated.  They are temporary work relationships that you put up with only to secure your more permanent ideological products.  This is assuming your ideology doesn't gradually shift over time.  To some degree that will happen as you age.

"Wife" and "how much hot sex" are certainly not part of my defining life goals.  I'm not opposed to them but I don't lose any sleep over them.  I would warn that they can be distractions.  Not so much the sex but the mortgage.  If you have to be responsible for a house and kids, it's going to curtail the risks you take.  The only person I have responsibility to at this point in my life is my dog.  I can afford to take the same kinds of risks that a 20 year old can, which is the silver lining behind the cloud of "gee, I wish I had accomplished more by now."  What I have accomplished, is failures have not deterred me from pursuing what I ultimately want from Life, ideologically speaking.  That is why I feel I have some authority to speak about certain things here.

[bvanevery]

Huh? near as i can tell, this is saying that you think "i don't want you to be a jerk because i think i'll look bad if i don't care", which is not the case.

I can't unpack that sentence.  I've tried 4 times now.  I'm giving up.

I want you to not be a jerk because i can't have a reasonable discussion with you when you are. That, and you're being rude.

This sentence I understand.  My answer is: I have a rather different threshold for "jerk" than you do.  Which enables me to have reasonable discussions with people you would probably say are "jerks."

Why couldn't you have said "what is this horrible consequence that you think is going to happen?  What sky is going to fall?"? That gets across the exact same point, without being a jerk and crude about it.

Clearly I could have, since I just did.  At the time, I didn't think about the concepts or unpack it in that way.  Instead I zeroed in on the OP's squeamishness.  It reminded me very much of people's attitudes towards porn, that watching or making it is "dirty."  Crudity of this sort isn't a big deal to me personally, nor people I have known.  I tend to forget that other people may have taboos about what can or should be said.

I also did shoot down the "career suicide" stuff, which is pretty much the same message as the "sky is going to fall" list above.  I was jerky about it but not crude.