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[eva]

idk why that top download thing is a problem anyway
i'd just check most recent or highest rated

[KM]

I think DLC is okay to be paid, as long as it's worth it. Like a single new gun for $3 is just not worth it. :/

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

IMHO Steam is "holding developers back" with their constant sales more than MSoft.

You think? I thought Jon Blow said at some point in the past year that they made an insane amount of money over a 2 or 3 day weekend sale that Steam did.  i.e. it really boosted sales for the 2 or 3 days.

but most of those were probably people who didn't buy the game because they were waiting for the inevitable sale. i do that myself. i know steam games are all going to go on sale eventually (around xmas time most often), so why bother buying them at full price? a reputation as a place where 'everything will go on sale eventually' reduces full price sales drastically. basically, a single game getting a ton of money when there is a sale doesn't prove that that game (or all games, on average) wouldn't have made more money if steam wasn't known for crazy sales.

[KM]

This is a surprising discovery, but judging from my purchases on steam, indie games are far more expensive than mainstream games. So I think the sales hurt mainstream games a lot more than indie games when they come around.

[BrianSlipBit]

BTW I think Ii heard that XBLA had the same Database problems that XBLIG had.

Indeed they do.  It's been a common problem over the years with XBLA devs' sales stats updates getting hung up etc.

[BrianSlipBit]

but most of those were probably people who didn't buy the game because they were waiting for the inevitable sale. i do that myself. i know steam games are all going to go on sale eventually (around xmas time most often), so why bother buying them at full price?

Right.  It's kind of like piracy.  Some people simply aren't going to pay for it no matter what--so it's not really a "lost sale".  I'd think it's better to make a sale (even at "on sale" price) rather than no sale at all.  I guess what I'm saying is that I don't think it's really "hurting" sales.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

some are lost sales, some aren't. what i'm saying is that ever since steam started having sales regularly i haven't bought a game on steam at full price, whereas i used to do so regularly. i know many others who are the same way. so i think you can reach a point where too many sales trains people into only wanting to buy games for 10-20$ max.

[moi]

Not only that but they are way too big and they are putting so many chains around their customers that there can't be no sane competition.
Now people don't want to buy games elsewhere because "it won't be on their steam" or some other crap like that. All they want is to enforce their monopolistic position(ex: not releasing their own PC games on other platforms than steam).
It's a all-or-nothing position, they are actively destroying the PC game market.

Also they seem to be heading toward a casual-hardcore/zynga-hardcore style of business, what with this "shop" where you can buy hats and weapons for TF2 characters.

[salade]

The monopolistic nature of steam is still a step up from the monopolistic nature of consoles. It just lacks a competitor.

[KM]

The shop in TF2 was inevitable. I can't think of any other mainstream game that continued to come out with updates years after it was released without someone paying for something else in the game one way or another. It was probably that or quit making TF2 updates.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

The shop in TF2 was inevitable. I can't think of any other mainstream game that continued to come out with updates years after it was released without someone paying for something else in the game one way or another. It was probably that or quit making TF2 updates.

starcraft 1

it was continuously patched for 11 years after release

[Matt Thorson]

The shop in TF2 was inevitable. I can't think of any other mainstream game that continued to come out with updates years after it was released without someone paying for something else in the game one way or another. It was probably that or quit making TF2 updates.

starcraft 1

it was continuously patched for 11 years after release

But to be fair it saw a lot less all-new content across those 11 years (not counting Brood War, which wasn't free) than TF2 has since release.

[BrianSlipBit]

It's a all-or-nothing position, they are actively destroying the PC game market.

I think I understand where you're coming from.  i.e. You don't like the monopoly they have.

However, I think they are helping the PC game market stay alive rather than destroying it.  Retail (on the store shelf) PC gaming is truly dead.  Without Steam, the PC market would be 100% completely dead.  So at least they're keeping the digital distribution avenue alive.

It's too bad MS never really got behind Games for Windows Live, because some competition would definitely be good.

[KM]

It's too bad MS never really got behind Games for Windows Live, because some competition would definitely be good.

I think steam actually got more behid games for windows than MS. Every Capcom game and a few others bought through steam use GFW, ironic huh?

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

retail pc isn't dead -- i bought starcraft 2 at retail and many pc games still sell far more copies through retail channels than through digital download; usually the proportion is about 3-1 in favor of retail sales. for instance, sins of a solar empire sold 500,000 copies, only 100,000 of those were through digital download.

pc sales through digital download wouldn't be dead without steam. there's a big difference between 'largest market share' and 'monopoly'. steam doesn't and can't ever have a monopoly on it, because buying games from people's sites will always happen; world of goo sold more copies from their site than from steam. many indie games also sell more copies from their site than from steam (although some sell more from steam, it varies based on how much marketing the developer gives their site).

so i think the idea that steam is 'saving' pc game sales is nonsense, if they weren't around i suspect pc sales would actually be higher, so in effect steam is killing pc sales, or at least heavily damaging them.

steam is a lot like walmart: walmart dominates retail in many areas of the US, but isn't a monopoly. but its low prices damage the entire retail industry by making it hard to compete with them and by training people into buying things at prices which can't be sustained long-term. and like walmart, steam often crowds smaller stores and home-based businesses out. but walmart is hardly a monopoly and it'd be crazy to suggest that without walmart nobody would shop at similar stores.

[Cthulhu32]

Mmm tasty Eres derail

Back on topic, Xbox Live screwed the pooch for me. Ever since I bought a new computer, my X360 has basically become a dusty brick. I attempted to call customer service to remove a credit card that hasn't been active for 4 years, and THREE times they sent me to India, where it was "promised sir that your credit card will be removed from activation status. Would you like to renew your subscription?"

Free DLC is necessary in the world of pure-electronic games. Rock Band had a lot of free DLC songs, but I have yet to actually buy any songs on there. I've always thought Steam was doing a better job than many of the other portals because of its "deal of the week". And anyone who says selling your game on a deal makes you lose money is out of their mind. Look at the pay what you want indie donation fund, Alec pulled in some insane six figure amount that could keep any indie company going for a while.

Also, because we are on the topic of Steam, it was not always this way! When they first launched Steam in 2003, it was horrible and clunky. It crashed my system every other boot, the loads took forever, and there was no in-game integration. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steam_(software)#Beginnings  Most of us would refer to it as the "steaming pile of crap". But Valve switched gears from making this big clunky Valve only launcher to supporting third-party software, to suddenly publishing small indie games and promoting "deal of the week" and all that. I think XBL has become so clueless to the fact that people enjoy a free community based service that they've lost track of the community. No, I don't want to pay $5 to have my avatar dance on a stripper pole. No, I'd rather not pay a $60 service fee just to play your games online, AND have the overhead of buying the game as well, AND have to pay for any DLC on top of that. Yes, I would love a free update, free DLC, 66% off a year old game, and the ability to play all of my games online for free.

[PsySal]

I haven't really used steam and don't actually play many games so... temper this with a large battleaxe of two-cents worth of salt, ok? =) But I do sort of agree with Paul that a race-to-the-bottom in terms of price hurts.

One of the things with the games market that I think has not been well-recognized is that player time and attention is maybe the most valuable commodity. Why buy any game, ever, when you are already sinking 20+hrs/wk into WoW? In these cases DLC is kind of a no-brainer, because if you are only playing one game, what does $20 for a pegasus or whatever matter? $20 is chump change compared to your weekly time commitment.

The best thing that online services can do, for the market overall, is encourage players to try new things out. Kind of like breaking up a clotted artery, mix it up a bit. Games, because they don't *have* to end, are unique in that they can become very monopolistic of player time.

I remember hearing once that there was a lawsuit in the 80's against an arcade game maker, I don't know who, because their game was really just an endless-mode but didn't warn the player. Maybe it's an urban myth but whatever, the idea is that the player was spending huge money trying to beat the game but hadn't been warned that it was impossible.

So yeah! I don't really have an answer or an informed opinion but I do think that encouraging players to move onto something new, rather than buy a $10 DLC hat or whatever is kind of sad. OTOH add-ons that give some meaningful extension to the game, new levels or missions or whatever seem reasonable since they will end! Okay done!

[BrianSlipBit]

retail pc isn't dead -- i bought starcraft 2 at retail and many pc games still sell far more copies through retail channels than through digital download; usually the proportion is about 3-1 in favor of retail sales. for instance, sins of a solar empire sold 500,000 copies, only 100,000 of those were through digital download.

I still disagree. 

I should have been more clear in stating that retail PC compared to what it once was--is effectively dead. 

Here's why.  If you consider all the games (including console) released on an annual basis, how many also release on PC?  I don't have hard numbers, but the number is extremely low--relatively speaking.  And that's the whole point.

You can cherry pick a few well known mega hits i.e. the WOW's, the Starcraft 2's, etc,  and it's great that they're finding success on the PC.  But they hardly amount to what PC gaming once was.

Of course there will always be some gaming life left in the PC.  Whether that is cultivated and sustained via Steam, direct web-based sales, GFWL, etc, is kind of irrelevant.  For me, any service that provides a portal for PC gaming and does a decent job of it, I consider it a plus.

Regardless, I think the PC is a great platform.  It's open, easily accessible, and fun to develop for.

[KM]

Someone needs to make a hack or plugin for steam that sets it up so you can download from other people's sites and still use steam. Example: Buy World of Goo through the site but can download it and play it on steam.

Also I think Steam has caused me to buy way more PC games than I ever would without it. I literally had like 5 PC games that I bought after I moved out of the parents house before I got on steam, and now I'm at nearly 200 on steam.

I can agree, it's probably going to hurt the studios with the million+ dollar budget games, but I can't see it hurting indie games since the amount of money to sustain an indie game studio is much much smaller than a mainstream studio. Like World of Goo supposedly cost $10,000 to make, and definitely made more than that in steam sales alone. What you're probably gonna see is more light weight studios producing indie games and the biggest mainsteam studios surviving and probably not much inbetween.

What we're probably gonna see in the next 10 years is retail console sales dying. They're already starting to make their move to downloadable content and the next generation will probably further that direction with massive onboard hard-drives and such.

[eva]

[What we're probably gonna see in the next 10 years is retail console sales dying. They're already starting to make their move to downloadable content and the next generation will probably further that direction with massive onboard hard-drives and such. ]

i doubt that
i dont know anyone with a psp go
i dont know anyone who buys gams on 360's games on demand
maybe the budget retail gams will go downloadable but theres def a place for the AAA titles in stores
also only 6% of consumers buy digital goods on consoles http://www.gamespot.com/news/6279895.html