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[Lukas]

Hey! I don't know whether this is the right place to present my idea first but since you are kewl ppl n I liek u I would like to share my vision. It keeps me up at night...

You may remember my crazy Ti-Basic-something-compiler-idea-thread:
http://forums.tigsource.com/index.php?topic=1392.0

Thinking even further... I once had a crazy idea... what about a console... dedicated to this language and it's philosophy: If we take 20 year old software-style and 5 year-old hardware... we can create (not minding the output/input-restrictions, of course) almost everything imaginable because the hardware is almost "too" fast for the programmes it is running.

Technical facts about my imaginary console:
- The case is very simple and stylish. Just a one-coloured cube or box or
something. It should be pretty light yet almost indestructible. (unlike the XBOX360...)

- the case has those ports (well hidden to keep it stylish?):
+ Power (of course)
+ S-video-out
+ component-out
+ VGA-out
+ LINE-out
+ LAN (yes, right.)
+ 4 controller-plugs (which are the same type of plugs as those you use for... mp3-player-headphones and such. indieness, sorry.)
+ 1 USB-in (yes, right.)

The s-video/component/VGA-outs make the console connectable to almost any screen you can imagine...
The LINE-out enables the console to be connected with a sound-system.
The LAN-port makes it connectable to the internet. (explanation later on...)
The 4 controller plugs... well... you can connect the consoles controllers there (explanation later on...)
The USB-in will be the only way to feed the console with software. Any USB-stick, MP3-player, Ipod-thingy etc. can be connected. The player has to create a special folder called... e.g. "Console" on it which the console will recognize. All the data inside the folder will be accesible from the console's-browser.
The console will store saved data etc. in this folder aswell.

The input-device (controller):
The controller is small yet ergonomic. It has 7 keys: up, left, down, right, alpha, beta, gamma. The keys are shaped (and feel) like common PC-keyboard-keys.
The player can use it single-handed.

Hardware-specs:
- 1(or 2?) Ghz processor-speed.
- 512 mb of RAM

Graphics and Sound:
The console outputs 96x96 pixels in black, white or grey. (3 tones)
The soundchip is pretty lowfi (sound is produced with a special tracker/synth)
still not "8-bittish" it rather has a... unique, analogue sound. (Haven't thought much about it, so far.) It's sound should remind of a Hammond-Organ or something like that.

Software:
The console has updatable firmwares and something like a "menu" (for file-browsing etc.) The programmes it runs have to be written in "TiLo" (or how I will call this Ti-Basic-like language).

Internet:
This is where it get's fancy. Since this is still a "next-gen-console" it is MENT to be connected to the internet. "TiLo"-programmes will have some very simple yet effective network-capabilities which allows the console to connect to servers with special softwares on them. This way it will a.) enable online play... some kind of free-lowest-fi-xbox-live  b.) have something like a "internet" in the internet? Browsers could be written in "TiLo". Websites set up on the servers or something. Of course... there are just 96x96-3-tone-pixels but you CAN display text and lowest-res-graphics on it. and it will still have this strange "omg I'm in teh internet"-feeling. (+ it will be extremely fast due to the almost nonexistent traffic (maybe a few kilobytes?)


Okay... you may have some idea about this whole thing now... but what's so great about that?
- it's cheap! the console would cost... 50-60$(?)... 1Ghz and 512Mbram (+ some extra-parts) don't cost anything nowadays...
- it would have a strange retro-vibe.
- it will be the first console (since the c64?) which "loves" it user. "Homebrew? Yes, please! Free software? Yes, please! Being independent from that whole software-industry-thing? Yes, please!" A "non-commercial" console.
- it will be customizable. Since it's extremely easy to write "TiLo"-programmes (at least I plan that...) anyone interested can add new things to the console-experience. A new internet-browser, a new game, a new community-platform...
and since it's firmware will be customizable too... you can do anything.
The controller-ports are analogue, so maybe... someone ports linux to the console and builds some kind of keyboard and mouse? Well... this is too crazy, maybe.
- it's online... again. Imagine turning on your old gameboy and going online with it... or... a "Final Fantasy I"-like retro-something-MMORPG?


Now let's get to the painful part: Could this ever be turned real? Most likely... no. No serious businessman would ever spend his money on such an idea... it's... just stupid. Earning ~30 bucks per sold unit while the product itself may online be appealing to a smaller-group of people?

But on the other hand. Youtube has some similar values: The youtube-guys don't really earn money on the easy way... youtube is free and just some people pay some bucks for a premium-membership. Youtube rather built up a name and a vision and maybe this is why it's so succesful now. I don't mean this console could really be compared to youtube... but maybe...

If someone builds up a small team of talented computer-engineering- and programming-students, raises funds for buying chips/parts to build some prototypes and solders/wires the first machines on his own... with some friends... and some unemployed people to sell the first consoles over ebay or something... who knows? Maybe it could work!  :D Maybe the whole thing could be sponsored by some company... who... ahm... advertises through it or... something. Since the whole thing shouldn't be too much of a risk (you don't have to build up awesome factories etc. to try out the concept)
Maybe there is a hidden audience? A console which costs 50$, and runs free games all the way... why not buy it as some kind of present for the kids? Or interested students? Or people who grew up with the C64 or something like that?


Hm... Maybe that's crazy and stupid (just like me) but for some reason I get wet daydreams every time I think of it...

BaronCid  :D

[bigbossSNK]

Ah, if only we were back in the 1970's, Pong had just come out in the arcades and Atari was about to rule the world.

Honestly, though, just port your Ti-basic compiler to the DS (when and if you get it running). Less hassle, bigger audience.
Your product is a niche market affair, you know that, right?

[mjau]

You could always make an emulator for it

Anyway, this reminded me of the Pandora console (except for the lo-fi and low cost parts..).  Once you get over the design it seems pretty interesting.  Too bad it's so expensive.

[Eclipse]

uhmmm... is that an handheld? if yes, a 2ghz processor and 512mb of ram are freaking expensive, also, forget a cisc (x86-like)architecture.
And also, the lcd screen? the firmware?

if it's something like a ps2 slim console... then, well so it's a normal x86 pc... without operating system... again, it will need something over the hardware level, so a minimal os, or something like that...
for example gp2x uses an arm-linux kernel (arm = a risc architecture), it's a commercial handheld (well, not homemade at least)but they still used linux because the "user friendlyness" for people to code on.

PS pandora will fail

[Lukas]

uhmmm... is that an handheld?

No, it is going to be a stationary console.

if yes, a 2ghz processor and 512mb of ram are freaking expensive

anyway... I actually found someone who could realize the whole thing with me. :D
and well... even 1ghz and 512mb seem to be very expensive...
Looks like we will go with ~500mhz and ~256mbRAM (which is more than enough, anyway) which you get (with a mainboard) for ~45€.

if it's something like a ps2 slim console...

Well, it's going to be larger, I guess.

again, it will need something over the hardware level, so a minimal os, or something like that...

Well, we haven't got very certain plans yet but (as I said) we'd like to include something like a "minimal OS". maybe something like that one we know from the PSP, or something. so firmware-updates would be OS-updates aswell.
Firmwareupdates have to be made if the console has either technial difficulties or the coding-language is updated and OS-updates could improve the appearence or something.
You'd use the OS just for browsing files on the usb-stick anyway. The rest would be homebrew-stuff. This way users can build up their own "OS" if they want to. They just have to programme/download it and stuff it on their usb-stick.
This way users prefering a special graphical interface or something can choose what they like best.

Or something and...
Well... let's hope this whole thing turns out as I want it to. :D
(We thought about "handcrafting" the first 100~ units if the prototyping is successful. This way we could maybe sell those things on ebay. We definately want to find a way to not make them cost more than... 50-70$ Since we are not all that interested in earning shitloads of money with the project. If 100 people actively and happily used such machines... that would be total awesomeness.)

BaronCid

PS: Didn't Pandora fail already? It's not really a niche-product, that may be why.

PPS: Oh my god, I hope I don't sound too self-confident in this whole thread. :D

[ravuya]

This seems like it describes the HYDRA, which is based upon the excellent Parallax Propeller microcontroller.

[superflat]

This sounds a bit like a well-connected, 1Ghz original Gameboy.  I think you're limiting it too much perhaps.  Shouldn't it be at least 320x240 in 256 colours?

I often dream of a new 2D console with:

- HD resolutions
- really cool built-in vector stuff + flash support
- and all the modern eye candy, like alpha, scaling, rotation
- basically no limit on sprite sizes
- great framework for sprites, particles, scrolling maps, physics - all testable on a perfect emulation on PC
- native MAME, SNES, NES, Megadrive, Master System, GBA, GB, DS emulation (with virtual console of course)
- compatible with SNES pads (or at least its own one which is as good)
- cheap! (could basically be a 1Ghz PC mainboard like you describe)

But anyway, sorry to semi-hijack the thread!

[Alex May]

if it's a home console, there should be wide-screen support. In fact I'd go as far as to say that the default screen mode should be wide-screen. The console should also be able to change resolutions so that pixels can be equally-sized over the whole display. This would probably mean hi-def output, in order to prevent television-scaler artifacts etc.

[moi]

This sounds a bit like a well-connected, 1Ghz original Gameboy.  I think you're limiting it too much perhaps.  Shouldn't it be at least 320x240 in 256 colours?

I often dream of a new 2D console with:

- HD resolutions
- really cool built-in vector stuff + flash support
- and all the modern eye candy, like alpha, scaling, rotation
- basically no limit on sprite sizes
- great framework for sprites, particles, scrolling maps, physics - all testable on a perfect emulation on PC
- native MAME, SNES, NES, Megadrive, Master System, GBA, GB, DS emulation (with virtual console of course)
- compatible with SNES pads (or at least its own one which is as good)
- cheap! (could basically be a 1Ghz PC mainboard like you describe)

But anyway, sorry to semi-hijack the thread!

You have that with the current-gen consoles (x360,Ps3,Wii)

[Lukas]

This sounds a bit like a well-connected, 1Ghz original Gameboy.  I think you're limiting it too much perhaps?

The gameboy has 2 additional shades of grey and ~50% more pixels, by the way.

Shouldn't it be at least 320x240 in 256 colours?

Then there would be no reason to be interested in the console.
Programming would become almost as hard as it is on the PC (more pixels to control, more colors etc.) and anyway... it would seem like a cheap ripoff.
Having 96x96-3tone-pixels emphasizes the actual lowest-fi aesthetic which makes this whole thing attractive. My goal is to prevent htat people compare my console's graphical-performance to the PC or most other consoles.
It would loose the comparison anyway. And building something winning the comparison a.)is hard b.)is something none "needs".

if it's a home console, there should be wide-screen support. In fact I'd go as far as to say that the default screen mode should be wide-screen. The console should also be able to change resolutions so that pixels can be equally-sized over the whole display. This would probably mean hi-def output, in order to prevent television-scaler artifacts etc.

I will see what I can do, you are right. I don't actually want to lift the amount of pixels higher than 100x100 pixels. (for a technical-reason aswell: the default array-size is 100x100) Stretching definately will be a must!
By the way... broadscreen could be achieved using black/white-bars! Yay! Nay! or... Nay! We'll see.


BaronCid

[jcromartie]

You had better ensure that this 100x100 2-bit color console will cost less than anything else.  You could conceivably build this sort of thing with simple microcontrollers.  The one in

is dirt cheap.  You could split up the work for video, audio, and CPU between a few of these, with a more powerful one as the CPU and have a good shot at making a cheap console.

I am pretty sure I wouldn't buy the console described by BaronCid for more than $100.

Just some food for thought.

[mjau]

PS: Didn't Pandora fail already? It's not really a niche-product, that may be why.

Um, it's not?  I seriously doubt they're planning to go up against the DS and PSP with it, seems closer to a more powerful GP2X.  (I also don't see how it could've failed considering it hasn't even been released yet..)

[Lukas]

PS: Didn't Pandora fail already? It's not really a niche-product, that may be why.

Um, it's not?  I seriously doubt they're planning to go up against the DS and PSP with it, seems closer to a more powerful GP2X.  (I also don't see how it could've failed considering it hasn't even been released yet..)

I don't know much about the Pandora, actually, so maybe you are right.

You had better ensure that this 100x100 2-bit color console will cost less than anything else.  You could conceivably build this sort of thing with simple microcontrollers.  The one in this video is dirt cheap.  You could split up the work for video, audio, and CPU between a few of these, with a more powerful one as the CPU and have a good shot at making a cheap console.

Thank you for that post! It was very, very helpful!
At the moment I'm discussing a prototype of the whole thing with a programmer who knows pretty much about hardware programming and all that techy stuff.
At first we were really thinking about taking a mainboard, a CPU, RAM-blocks etc. but with your model we built up a whole new concept which is simply superior to the first one.

We are most likely going to use 3 chips:
- One for maths, input, program flow and data-management
- One for graphics (turning pixels white, grey or black... this is all)
- One for sound (probably a higly limited wave-signal... no 8bit-chiptunes )

Taking the different chips, jacks (usb, ethernet etc...) etc. into account we would probably be able to build a prototype for a total of ~50€.

If we succeed... we will probably try to adress ourselves to a media-technology-institute in germany which could fund a small series of devices.
Since this console is not a financial thing but rather some kind of (cultural) experiment they could be interested in the whole thing... it wouldn't be a large financial risk anyway... 

Oh god science, I hope something good will turn out in the end.

I am pretty sure I wouldn't buy the console described by BaronCid for more than $100.

And I'm pretty sure I wouldn't dare trying to sell that thing for more than 60$.


Thanks again... BaronCid 

[Zaphos]

How much real advantage do you get by doing it in hardware vs making a software layer that runs your low-fi system on top of existing OSes and consoles?  Setting aside superficial things like the controller having alpha, beta, gamma keys, it seems like the system you describe could run as a software layer on almost anything.

[Jolli]

please make this happen