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[alphasmart]

perhaps a good topic for discussion is Jon Blow's idea of natural/artifical rewards.  Points (and therefore highscore) are a bugbear of mine, particularly when it means collectibles that only boost your score.  Nitrome is a huge offender here as there as every game contains some arbitrary collectible that does nothing but affect your place on the highscore table.  Unfortunate as it works as a filler and a distraction from the game mechanic.  I don't even think there are any "5 for a one-up" items, and shows a clear lack of creativity among a studio so talented in the pixelatory arts.

[Terry]

Here is a suggestion:
The problem with Interactive Fiction
I know this title will sound provocative to many people who think that IF is perfect as it is. But I have identified a couple of problem that IMO make IF games less interesting than they could be and we could also discuss ways to make IF games more appealing to the general public.

That's a terrible idea. Not because "IF is perfect as it is", but because it would be really presumptuous for a forum that collectively barely particulates in the IF scene to pick apart its flaws. To me it's a bit like if a pop music forum had a thread that discusses the problems with classic music.

[moi]

Huh?
there have been an IF competition here, and I think most people here play or have played IF games. And you don't really need to be an expert on the subject to give your opinion, actually I think IF experts might be a little too immersed in the subject to have clear opinions on its interface with wider audiences.

[Terry]

Well, maybe. Don't let me stop you.

Edit: Honestly, I think the proposed title annoys me more than anything else.

[Zaphos]

Perhaps a title more like, "making interactive fiction more accessible" would be better directed and less obnoxious?  I would certainly be interested in that topic, anyway, as I find IF very interesting in theory but quite difficult to get in to in practice.

[Guert]

I will add the question to the list bit I'm still wondering about which topic will be next. If it doens't really matters, I'll just follow the current list order...

[moi]

Yeah maybe the title was too much (but it sounded like a typical IF title lol)

[Danrul]

Turning an idea into a game:  How to flesh out a concept into something playable and understandable.

Maybe this sorta goes under polishing up a design, but I think there is a long way between having an idea for a gameplay mechanic or story, and having everything else in the game work to complement or accentuate this feature/idea/story.

[Gainsworthy]

The Fool from Outer Space suggests well. A topic like that would really help Tiglets (like myself!) get something finished.

It does seem like a Very broad topic, though. Something like that would have to consider everything from big, obvious and difficult to more subtle (but no less important) concepts. I assume. Never made a game myself. Which neatly ties in to my second sentence, potentially turning this post into a conceptual infinite loop.

[Danrul]

Its not that broad a topic.  It would just mean having different opinions on taking a game from a gameplay idea to a game (like adding additional uses to an item) , a story to a game that develops it (like developing a rough script, ideas on how to make the gameplay reflect the characters emotions/background), or a broad game idea into a complete game (like adding features that work with it, ways to make it unique).

Now, apart from that brief explanation turned paragraph, it could just be people giving personal experiences on what works best, and then compiling their ideas into a list that can be referenced for noobies.  Or a process for them to follow, or multiple ones with differing focus and depth.

EDIT:  Just realised that its a very broad topic and I'm an idiot.

[joshg]

Well, it's a broad topic, but that doesn't mean you're an idiot. 

Actually I think it's a good starting point, but let's narrow it down.  What if we ask for moments that people have come across in their projects where they realize that the design was going down a seriously wrong direction, and then what they did to course-correct it?  Maybe it could turn into "Dodging midgame design pitfalls" as a title.  (borrowing the concept of 'midgame' from classics like chess and go to mean the middle of a development cycle)

Personally I suspect that while everyone puts a lot of value on early design work (high concepts and big ideas), I think the trickier work as an actual designer is hiding in the middle where things get less glamorous.  But I haven't slogged through enough projects in a design role to be sure of that yet. 

[Danrul]

Hmm.  It could be a series of 3 topics, dealing with start up, the development process, when you as a designer are doing relatively nothing, and at the end, where it could deal on finding ways to polish or clean up the end product.

[joshg]

Hmm.  It could be a series of 3 topics, dealing with start up, the development process, when you as a designer are doing relatively nothing, and at the end, where it could deal on finding ways to polish or clean up the end product.

Is that even true?  I mean, that's exactly what I meant when I said I suspected that there's serious design work hiding in the middle of the dev process.

I guess maybe it depends on your dev approach, but I don't think anyone today actually does a massive up-front design doc that explains every detailed implementation and then walks away.  Even huge mainstream developers are taking a (somewhat) more agile, iterative approach.

At the very least, there are design choices that I don't think are even possible to make (properly) until you've got a playable prototype to test out the core gameplay.  And if you're creating a level-based game, there are design choices to make all along the level creation process.

(I've only done a bit of design work on small projects, and watched designers from a distance on bigger ones ... if I'm way off base then I'd love to hear the stories.)

[Danrul]

Well, as far as doing nothing, i mean so much as that point when everything is just being made, somewhere after prototypes and somewhere before polish.  Theres a point, from my experience, where your graphics guys and and the programmers are just working on making the gamey parts of the game.
Iunno. Its late, and my romulator just made me lose 2-3 hours of castlevania time.  I'm not thinking straight.

[Guert]

Hey guys, just a quick update to tell you that I have not forgotten the workshop but my current workload is overwhelming me a bit. If anyone wants to start a thread, be my guest . I will be back with the workshops as soon as possible.
Later!

[Guert]

My work load is still overhwelming me If anyone wanna take the helm while I'm freakin' busy, don't be shy

[Guert]

New workshop up.
Oh and willyalookadat, triple bump post!

[agj]

I'd like it if these workshops were, well, more workshop-like, rather than just discussion. That is, if people did things like make short design documents for hypothetic games, tried to fix a game's flaws, make prototype games. I haven't been involved in these threads because I am making my first (serious) game, so it would be presumptuous of me to discuss with any authority, but if everyone were to start putting their ideas into practice, and some discussion generated from it, I would find it more encouraging.

I'd like it if there was one about a designer's objectives. As in, what should a game attempt to achieve, by existing? Most games want to be played and enjoyed, and that's about it, but I believe that games can, and should, seek to be positively stimulating, informative, or something else.

[Guert]

Hmm, that could be quite interesting. I have to sort a few things out and I'll see what I can come up with. Or if anyone already has an idea, just do it, I'll be glad to participate!

[theseethrumirror]

I think it might be interesting to discuss how to portray narrative through gameplay instead of through traditional means (like cutscenes and dialogue sequences). We could come up with a little storyline and theorize different ways the player could play through it instead of watch or read it.

(and I'm sorry if this has already been discussed. I'm new around here)