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[cynicalsandel]

I searched for this topic, but there was nothing very specific that I found on this topic. Sorry if this has been discussed a million times. I'm relatively new, so please excuse my noobishness.

I saw this quote..

Oh, and as for school, don't waste your time... At least not with a degree in art or design. If you do, avoid the Art Institute chain/scam at all costs. Like Pierog said, it's not a skill that can be taught but is cultivated with practice. In the game industry, having a degree is irrelevant; it's all about your portfolio and who you know.

in this thread.

It struck my interest, especially as I plan on going to college for art. While that specific thread was in reference to the job of "game designer", the specific quote I posted above also references degrees in art. He states that they are a waste of time. Obviously, I have a different opinion, but I have never actually experienced college or the indie life in general.

I really created this topic to get more opinions on the subject. Not "design" degrees, but general art degrees from an average college. Not necessarily an institute that specializes in video games.

While I do agree that improving in art involves a lot of practice, I think that college could be beneficial. For one, it seems to make the tools more accessible to students. I've never actually been to one, but it would seen reasonable that they would also teach you how to use these tools.

Essentially, I just would like some more opinions on it. So, how do you feel about college degrees in art?

Thanks in advance.

[Xion]

I don't have a degree in art (well, I've almost got an AFA but I'm assuming you mean at least a BFA or something) but more and more, as I take these classes, I can't help but feel that it's all something I could teach myself.

I am not very monied. In fact I, and pretty much all of my family, are chronically on the verge of complete brokeness. The prospect of taking out a school loan and being unable to pay it back (as happened with my mother) or taking most of my life to pay it back (as is happening with my brother) is not appealing. After all, aren't artists famous for being poor and stuff? (most of the ones I know are). Getting a degree just to get a job where you can just make enough money to pay off the cost of getting your degree seems a bit like bullshit.

I've been strongly considering simply Not Going and gaining the knowledge through other means (books, online resources/courses, master classes, practice, internship?, etc.) at the expense of a formal degree.

That said, if I can diminish the chances of eternal debt and brokeness, I will definitely get a BFA. As you said, the access to tools, as well as networking opportunities, feedback from peers and teachers, exposure to new ideas, and imperativeness of getting shit done in a timely quality manner is something I'd be sore for if I took the do-it-yourself route, where I'd have to look all over for those things instead of having them all in one nice package.

But like I said, I don't have a degree or anything yet so you should probably disregard all this as crazy talk from an uneducated young fool.

[cynicalsandel]

That said, if I can diminish the chances of eternal debt and brokeness, I will definitely get a BFA. As you said, the access to tools, as well as networking opportunities, feedback from peers and teachers, exposure to new ideas, and imperativeness of getting shit done in a timely quality manner is something I'd be sore for if I took the do-it-yourself route, where I'd have to look all over for those things instead of having them all in one nice package.

Getting stuff done is one main reason I am seriously considering getting a degree. I don't doubt that with all the resources on the internet that some people may be able to teach themselves. What concerns me about that is, I have a horrible work ethic. Unless there is some consequence for not doing something, I won't do it.

Money is a pretty large issue though. Especially if I wanted to jump into the indie scene afterwards. Paying off loans could be a serious issue when having no income.

Thanks for the input!

[gimymblert]

http://www.conceptart.org/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=15

This place may help you.


I have been into an art school too and I can say there is two kind of artschool, Those who focus on creativity and very little on craft or those who focus on technics whith a dry conception of creativity.

Creativity school churn out a lot of lazy( with some lazy but clever) artist. However those who are good are really really good and creative. Those school tend to give you conceptual tools to create your own craft, your own technics and thus your own value. If you value crap you will produce crap that is. That's also the realm of poor romantic artist that value ego and expression other everythings, lot of emo converge there. It's for people who can create themselves, you better have a very strong sense of things and have firm position.

Technical schools have their prefered technics and create specialist. They tend to focus on work ethic and excellance in execution. But because there is excellance, which suppose a norm, there is a narrow set of value, thus little place for different conception of things, you do their way or it's crap for them, end of discussion. They tend to create narrow minded people with standardize skills but highly professional and functional. Geek tend to flock there.

Each school have its own bias too, be careful of the culture they have if you want to applied so it's not at odd with yours.

THe best school generally combine the two, they start with brutally technical first year with very little room for expression and suddenly change to a very leniant way of teaching that try to abolish all the habit they start giving you. But they also select people based on their promising personnality and encourage a vast set of ability/sensibility. Because of the hard and forced mix there is also HUGE drama that happen all the time, it can be very stressful.

But the best things an art school give you is not the lesson or the teaching, no! It's a community of people that do the same thing with diverse motivation that you can share with, side by side. You learn a lot by emulation and that's what school bring best, the different perspective is what is important, it allow you to build yourself and shape a position. For everything else there is internet and books and etc...

But at the end it's all up to you. What you bring there is what you take back. In every case you should not wait for the schools to teach you, you should form yourself whenever possible, schools is just the multiplyer.

Whatever you do, find and master the very fundamental element and principal. In graphic art it's everything like composition gestalt and the like, It may seem dry and remove from waht you may want to acheive but this is basically the grammar, the better you speak it, the more power you have both in technic and creativity. Always hunt the fundamental, even if it's a new domain. Finding new fundamental is more important than finding new technics, as with fundamental you read, transform, adapt and understand any technics.

If you don't want to think too much and have low to med standard about creativity (I mean you have no interest in "bullshit" and crazy things) you should aim a technical school.

Myself I was in a creative schools, and I was clearly not there for degree but to learn. They had mid technical cursus (object design, graphic design aside from pure art), I wanted to go into Graphic design but they really want me in ART so they denied me access to higher year and I have to do my propedeutique again, but their politics fail as I had lost clearly interest but they still wanted to keep me, I had no interest in degree they offer me acess to everything at the expense of a degree. That was interesting. I'm clearly an exception I can't offer any advice how to do well at school beyond the classification I have made to you above.

[Seth]

I agree with neo, I went to a "creativity school" (although I wasn't in the art program, I knew a ton of people in it and took several art courses).  It's simple to go to a school like that, be lazy, and get your degree with a 3.0 or better.  That should not be your goal--you are only screwing over yourself.  I saw a lot of lazy art made there (made some myself) and I saw some earnest yet bad art, and I saw some genuinely good work from people who took themselves seriously and worked hard.  You won't graduate with a lot of job prospects, and you won't graduate as a master of the arts.  But if you worked hard, thought seriously and deeply about your art, and kept with people who did the same, you will grow immensely as an artist, and more importantly, as a person.

Sincerely,

In a Lot of Debt With No Prospects and No Regrets.

P.S. it also wouldn't hurt to learn something a little more pragmatic while you're in school (ok, so I have some regrets...).  Consider a double major.

[PogueSquadron]

I think it really all depends on what you want to do.  Is game design something you want to do professionally or keep as a hobby?  Do you want to do concept art for games?  Do you want to make in game assets?  Art school could be a great way to help you figure all these things out.

As someone who graduated with a BFA in illustration (Ringling College of Art and Design), I'll say that it's tough, regardless of whatever you want to get into.  I'd still like to get into doing children's books, which is something I'm currently working on (and it will happen, damnit!).

Learning how to draw and paint in general will help you across many, many aspects of art.  You can be a concept artist, a sprite designer, a matte painter, etc...but if you don't have a good foundation of drawing, then you'll be incredibly outmatched by those who do.

I wouldn't go to art school expecting someone to take your hand and "teach you how to draw."  I had too many classmates that expected that out of college.  Rather, the teacher will present you with insight, resources, advice, etc.  YOU will figure things out on your own.  Yes, I suppose you could say that "you can figure all of it out on your own" but you will do so much faster with a mentor.

Becoming great at anything requires a lot of deliberate practice, and feedback (usually from a mentor) to help you get better.  A community of like minded individuals is also invaluable, but receiving criticism, advice, and insight from a veteran will offer something your art school buddies cannot provide.  Nothing IMO could help someone learn how to draw more than the mentoring of someone who truly knows what they're doing, and wants to help you.  And that is definitely something you can find at a good school.

The degree/title isn't important, but what you learn is.  No one will take a look at your portfolio and give you points because you have a BFA (haha, I wish!)  It really all depends on whether or not it's financially possible for you to go to school.

Please have either a really good backup plan though, or parents who love you.  Very. Very. Much. Haha (I love you mom and dad!)

(If you want job prospects, you'd probably want to possibly look into graphic design.  You'd have better luck designing a website for someone than drawing them some children's book illustrations, much to my dismay)

[Scut Fabulous]

I'll throw most of my weight behind Xion.  I didn't go to 'art' school per se, I went to design school.  I have a BA in industrial design, and a MA in transportation design, and in hindsight I think they are the least cost effective ways I could have spent my 20's.

Design schools are just a different breed of art school, so let me lay out my opinion on what they deliver and what they cannot:

Schools that promote degrees can have you walk out the door with a piece of paper, and that's about the only thing they can actually promise.  If you want a piece of paper stating that you hold a degree in art/design/dance/whatevs, then a full programme is right for you.

Schools cannot teach you how to think.  They cannot promise that when you leave you will be innovative, daring, clever, passionate etc.  Those are subjective, intangible qualities, they are also some of the most important qualities to any creative professional.  A safe artist is a boring artist.


Here is how I would recommend you take advantage of what schools have, and avoid the pitfalls that come with chasing a piece of paper.  Forget the degree, it's prestigious but overpriced.  Instead, shop around and take individual courses that seem interesting to you.  Focus on tangible skills that success or failure at can actually be measured in some manner.  Some examples might be life drawing, structural drawing, sculpture, colour science, wood carving, photoshop, oil painting, welding...
At the end of the day, it's your portfolio that speaks for your ability far in excess of any degrees or diplomas.  I promise the work in your portfolio will be far stronger if it's composed of pieces you wanted to do, instead of pieces you were told to execute.

[PogueSquadron]

Although in the defense of the traditional art school (or any area of knowledge for that matter), sometimes you don't know exactly what you want to do and what you don't.  Doing what you don't want to do is a part of life.  It can teach you a lot about yourself.  And who knows, maybe you get turned on to something that you never before imagined you would.

In the end OP, it all boils down to money, what your goals are, and what is the most reasonable way to accomplish those goals.

(And if you DO decide to go to an art school...for the love of god, take your liberal arts classes somewhere else)

[BlueSweatshirt]

I can tell you from experience(from those I know personally) that it's all about your major within a BA degree(Bachelor of Arts; recommended AKA Badass degree) If you want to work in applied art(IE: Art that you can get a job with) go for graphic design. Through college, you'll learn techniques about making your art, and tailoring it to a client's preferences, as well as applying for jobs. You'll build up an excellent portfolio throughout your college experience, and by the time you get out you'll be ready to walk into a studio and hand them your portfolio.

A friend of mine did this, graduated, and walked out straight into a job with Warner Brothers.

[gimymblert]

There is two goal: Do you make it for a job or for yourself?

If it's for a job, it's all about skills, some originality can help, but be boring artist first (in know all the basic) and push something to stand out and have value within the competition (there is a lot of skill artist, the competition is tough). Do as Scut says.

If it's for yourself, it's a lot more harder and a creative school can help you, if only because you will be upset and it will push you to make a decision. The reason I "dropped" from my school is that I made me realize how much I was a (game) designer first (as in solver but still with a huge artistic bias) and how there is no where I could learn how to be just that, the kind of designer I wanted to be. But it did give me strong tools to understand how to think fluently about my craft even if there is nothing precedent.

But this are the things that are intangible and can't be measure, it's something you will have to stand for against people who don't like your position, you will be torn by doubt about what you do and there is absolutely no way to know if you are good or not, there is no standard but yourself, there is no norm but what you decide, you will be alone. You will have to carve a place for yourself with your own blood. Those intangible things need to be trained too, they are your personality, sensibilities, value, ... You cannot just be yourself, you need to sharpen yourself. There is technics for that too.

So in short, do you want to move things (creativity) or to be move by things (skills). Do you want to own your success (creativity) or do you want to follow the success (skills). You don't need schools for neither.

I had a well paid job in the industry, I quit and I'm way more happy, but that's just me, i'm strong enough to keep up the hardship.

[PogueSquadron]

I can tell you from experience(from those I know personally) that it's all about your major within a BA degree(Bachelor of Arts; recommended AKA Badass degree) If you want to work in applied art(IE: Art that you can get a job with) go for graphic design. Through college, you'll learn techniques about making your art, and tailoring it to a client's preferences, as well as applying for jobs. You'll build up an excellent portfolio throughout your college experience, and by the time you get out you'll be ready to walk into a studio and hand them your portfolio.

A friend of mine did this, graduated, and walked out straight into a job with Warner Brothers.

Hehe, you make it sound so easy!  

But yeah, Graphic Design would be the best bet if you want job security.  There are a lot of companies out there that need websites, reports, UI designs, menus, posters, catalogs, etc.  Just remember if you want a job at WB or Lucasarts or Dreamworks or wherever, it's going to take a loooot of work.

Or you can major in illustration and wind up oil painting in the back of your mom's store hoping that old laides buy paintings, haha.

(And honestly, I'd agree about being a "boring" artist first...Learn as much as you can from teachers.  Do what they tell you to do.  Soak it all in.  But be yourself.  Make sure that whatever you create is based on a foundation of abilities, and not inabilities.  The greatest masters of all time learned how to be technical before they ascended to a level of thinking that few ever get to)

And just take things slow.  You're young.  You don't have to commit to one thing right now.  Try some things out, figure out what you want to do.  And just have fun!

[BlueSweatshirt]

Sometimes when you make things sound easy, you're less prone to being overwhelmed by how hard it really can be. 
(that's just a personal case, though)

I agree with learning the traditional art techniques, all the way. And yeah, graphic design is definitely the 'safe' job.

I kind of see it as stepping stones, where traditional art is the very base everything works off of. Traditional art is the foundation for all visual art, and can be applied to any visual art there is.

[Kramlack]

Here's my two cents on college and university.

They're good options as they allow you to get out and socialize with other artists, as well as give you more routine in your work ethic, but short of that, I really don't see a use. Anything taught in the classroom can be found on the internet, I guarantee it. However, the experience is really what's worthwhile here. A lot of artists I've talked to seem to share this view, or something relatively close.

I guess my advice is, if you have the money and the time to spare, go for it. If not, don't bother. As Xion said, there's some pretty grave consequences to post grad education, such as high debts that could take half your lifetime to pay off.

[simono]

I guess my advice is, if you have the money and the time to spare, go for it. If not, don't bother. As Xion said, there's some pretty grave consequences to post grad education, such as high debts that could take half your lifetime to pay off.

are you talking about tuition fees or the normal living costs.. like you can't work fulltime because you study? if tuition is the problem go to a public university.

If you are from around Europe, especially in germany/austria there's lots of "Universities of Applied Sciences" which focus on the practical aspects of a field - so less theory, more doing! and you still get a degree. this might be your thing

[Jetrel]

GILBERT Timmy's dichotomy is just about dead-on.

College these days in america has gone from "expensive" -> "batshit insane". (30-50K x 4 years)  Unless you're rolling in money, I don't think you should go to college at all unless you're laser-focused on working your ass off and getting some useful marketable technical skills.  If you don't, it's a bit like buying a house, except without getting the house.  Especially if you have to take extra years of college due to a changed major or whatnot, which is a strong danger if you're not really sure what you want to do.

I know too many close friends that have basically ruined their lives with debt they will never, ever repay.  


That said - if you're in europe?  College is free, afaik.  Rock on. 

[Kramlack]

@Simono: I actually don't have this problem myself, as I'm not going to uni or college, even then, I have a fair amount of money set aside for it. I'm basing this purely on what I've heard from friends, family and forum goers, that paying back money can be a long term issue afterward.

Public university isn't something I'm familiar with, but after doing a bit of searching it seems to be a great way to go if you have issues with money, as you said.

[bento_smile]

A few random points:

I don't have a degree, but I would have liked to have got one. Mostly because I really like studying!

It's true that art is something you have to be motivated with, and that you can teach yourself a lot. The thing is that going to college should give you space to do that studying, as well as giving you a good excuse to use different media. You have to be able to teach yourself though, as art is something you'll be learning for your whole life. 

Although XD I am in the UK so my perspective is a little different anyway (unless they have increased fees, in which case, booo!)

[cynicalsandel]

Wow this thread really took off.

I agree with neo, I went to a "creativity school" (although I wasn't in the art program, I knew a ton of people in it and took several art courses).  It's simple to go to a school like that, be lazy, and get your degree with a 3.0 or better.  That should not be your goal--you are only screwing over yourself.  I saw a lot of lazy art made there (made some myself) and I saw some earnest yet bad art, and I saw some genuinely good work from people who took themselves seriously and worked hard.  You won't graduate with a lot of job prospects, and you won't graduate as a master of the arts.  But if you worked hard, thought seriously and deeply about your art, and kept with people who did the same, you will grow immensely as an artist, and more importantly, as a person.

When it comes to art, I wouldn't call myself lazy. Which is one main reason as to why I want to go to school for it. It is really the only subject where I am actually motivated. To be honest, I just want to do something that I like. Even if a job isn't guaranteed, it sounds much more pleasant than doing something just for the money/security/both.

I think it really all depends on what you want to do.  Is game design something you want to do professionally or keep as a hobby?  Do you want to do concept art for games?  Do you want to make in game assets?  Art school could be a great way to help you figure all these things out.

A job working on video game art would be amazing. Though if I got a job in art outside of the video game industry, I would definitely keep it as a hobby and possible future.

I wouldn't go to art school expecting someone to take your hand and "teach you how to draw."  I had too many classmates that expected that out of college.  Rather, the teacher will present you with insight, resources, advice, etc.  YOU will figure things out on your own.  Yes, I suppose you could say that "you can figure all of it out on your own" but you will do so much faster with a mentor.

Not to be egotistical or anything, but I know I have some artistic ability. I'm not up to par with many of the artists out there currently, but I know that I'm better than at least the people around me at my school. I have an art class at high school, but we never get any advice or critique. It is hardly any different from just practicing at home. I think one thing I'm looking for (besides my need for criticism) is to be taught. I want to learn how to use resources and such. For example, I don't know how to use Photoshop or Illustrator. I wouldn't want a teacher to teach me how to draw, but rather how to use the tools in these programs to my benefit.

College these days in america has gone from "expensive" -> "batshit insane". (30-50K x 4 years)  Unless you're rolling in money, I don't think you should go to college at all unless you're laser-focused on working your ass off and getting some useful marketable technical skills.  If you don't, it's a bit like buying a house, except without getting the house.  Especially if you have to take extra years of college due to a changed major or whatnot, which is a strong danger if you're not really sure what you want to do.

Luckily, the schools I'm looking at going to are considerably cheaper. I'm in-state and while they have good art programs, they aren't the ivy league of art schools.

Anyways, I would like to apologize. My thoughts are pretty disorganized, and I have a somewhat difficult time explaining myself through words. So if what I say doesn't make sense, I'll understand. Additionally, I would like to thank everyone for their input. If I didn't reply to your post in particular, it isn't because it didn't help me, but rather I just didn't know how to reply.

[PogueSquadron]

No, I totally see where you're coming from.  I was the same way, at recognizing where I was amongst my peers and being able to accurately assess my abilities.  If you can do that, then that's definitely something that will help (though I've known people who always thought they were really good and weren't, so just keep a good head on your shoulders, which it sounds like you have).

Having a teacher who knows what they're talking about (depending on how you learn, I suppose) can be an extraordinary benefit.  Figure drawing and anatomy, illustration (and the entire process of illustration), color, composition...all of these things are hard to teach yourself without the mentoring of a good teacher.  Keep in mind, this is all just my two cents.

I would think learning software is something you could easily learn on your own.  There are plenty of tutorials and exercises online to help you out.  Myself and other students at college were well versed at Photoshop and Illustrator before taking any sort of digital illustration.  Learning how to draw and paint though?  To me, those are things that no one should be learning on their own, because those are particular skills that require feedback and criticism.  It's one thing to be drawing out of figure books, but it's another thing to be doing 30 second gesture drawings under the guidance of someone who's been doing it for 30+ years.

(Then again, I might be really biased in this, because I was fortunate enough to have really good teachers, and I probably wouldn't be anything without them)

[Amirai]

Wanted to second how important the choice of school is. I learned more in two weeks at animation mentor than I had learned in two years at the previous college I went to.

Trouble is, it's hard to tell what it'll be like before enrolling to the college.