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TIGSource ForumsCommunityDevLogsPike 'n Shot [an arcade Pike and Shoot'em up] (alpha v0.2)
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Author Topic: Pike 'n Shot [an arcade Pike and Shoot'em up] (alpha v0.2)  (Read 49739 times)
jgrams
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« Reply #100 on: November 30, 2014, 02:13:05 PM »

I get the same thing (Windows 7)...sounds like you can't have a dependency on GamerServices...

http://xboxforums.create.msdn.com/forums/t/78767.aspx
http://www.gamedev.net/topic/610523-c-game-not-runnning-on-other-computers/#entry4860856

It looks like it's just the XBox Live achievements and stuff (docs here), so I'm guessing it's just something screwy that your build environment is putting in there for some screwy reason...?
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« Reply #101 on: November 30, 2014, 02:37:59 PM »

Nah, it's the Microsoft.Xna.Framework.Content.Pipeline part of XNA like it says in his error message. I guess that part of the framework isn't in the redistributable. So people with the full XNA framework installed on their machines so that they can make games with it, they have it, and it runs fine, but the redistributable doesn't have that part of the framework in it. Thanks Microsoft >_>.

It's only needed by the game so that my level editor can serialize levelcontent into level xml files and run them immediately. I'm looking to see if I can either A) find a non XNA reliant way to do that or B) just create a build of the game that doesn't have the level editor in it, maybe with #ifdefs or something to just make those parts not build when I set a certain #define.

Thanks for pointing me in the right direction though, jgrams.
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« Reply #102 on: November 30, 2014, 03:06:59 PM »

Alright, I THINK I found a fix. I found somewhere online that you can include the DLL files to different parts of the framework in your install package thing. I've tried to do that with the needed pipeline stuff. Try this out.

http://tsamurai.pyoko.org/downloads/PikeAndShotAlpha0.3.zip

Edit: My buddy Jimmy seems to have been able to install this one fine. having the dlls in there bloats it a little bit, what whatever. It's still not even a MB.

Well now I'm super bummed that people downloaded it, couldn't install it, and just didn't care enough to ask for help ;_;
« Last Edit: November 30, 2014, 03:20:47 PM by James Edward Smith » Logged

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« Reply #103 on: November 30, 2014, 04:36:04 PM »

Alright, I THINK I found a fix.

Still wants me to have the XNA redistributable installed, so it's not stand-alone like the 0.1 alpha. But otherwise it works for me...

Well now I'm super bummed that people downloaded it, couldn't install it, and just didn't care enough to ask for help ;_;

Hey, two of us asked for help. And I deleted dependencies from the installer manifest (and updated the hashes) by hand until it installed, to see if I could get it to run...if that makes you feel better? Tongue



I like the new mechanic where you have a fixed-size troop and you use your gold to hire new soldiers when they're killed. I like the more compact troop too, seems like it makes it just that little bit easier to dodge projectiles.

It's interesting that you removed the behavior where the longer line of shooters would move to the front when they finished reloading (when screened by the pikemen). I guess it does give you slightly more control. With the lines being more even, I don't feel like it makes much difference which way it behaves, but I'd be curious to hear what your reasons were for changing it.

I like the arquebusiers fading in and then flashing. Personally I didn't have trouble telling when they had reloaded (usually I'd be watching my troop anyway to be sure they were out of the way of a missile or were perfectly lined up for the next shot) but this makes it super clear even out of the corner of your eye.

Not a fan of the CRT effect, but I know lots of people like that kind of thing, so as long as I can turn it off I won't complain. Wink

I wish the level was longer -- AFAICT if you do everything perfectly you only get the doppel soldier in time to make one attack on the very last enemy formation? Or am I missing something?

Keep up the good work! Smiley
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James Edward Smith
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« Reply #104 on: November 30, 2014, 05:50:19 PM »

Hey, two of us asked for help. And I deleted dependencies from the installer manifest (and updated the hashes) by hand until it installed, to see if I could get it to run...if that makes you feel better? Tongue

Oh, Heh, I didn't mean it like that. I just don't want people who wanted to play it end up not being able to, and then maybe never finding out it could have been fixed.

Quote
It's interesting that you removed the behavior where the longer line of shooters would move to the front when they finished reloading (when screened by the pikemen). I guess it does give you slightly more control. With the lines being more even, I don't feel like it makes much difference which way it behaves, but I'd be curious to hear what your reasons were for changing it.

Oh, I just figured with the numbers being about the same, it didn't really matter anymore. I'd rather have them changing rows outside of your control not happen at a time where it might mess you up. So I took it out but it's not final.

Quote
I wish the level was longer -- AFAICT if you do everything perfectly you only get the doppel soldier in time to make one attack on the very last enemy formation? Or am I missing something?

The final enemies in the alpha right now are the sinusoidal moving skirmishers that attack with groups of bandits inbetween them that you encounter just after the two big sheild walls that come out from the bottom and then top of the screen.

If you play the level PERFECTLY which is killing every loot awarding enemy that spawns and taking zero losses yourself, you can get a doppel soldier before you come to the shield walls. The level may in the end be a little longer than it is now, but not a ton longer. Keep in mind, there will be a boss segment at the end there eventually. I may start you with a full coffer though, which would let you get doppel soldiers more quickly. The other thing is I may have saurians attempting to carry away chests or sacks of loot placed at certain points in the level, and if you manage to take them out before they get away, you'll get a bunch of coins.
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« Reply #105 on: December 01, 2014, 02:41:21 AM »

Saw this game a while ago but didn't see the GIFs (which do an ace job of explaining the mechanics very quickly).

Love the formation shift and in particular like how you left the background black (so if you see the game from a distance it looks like a space shooter!) I was recently thinking that there needs to be more close combat schmups out there. Hopefully this one fills the void.

Very best of luck with it!
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« Reply #106 on: December 01, 2014, 04:38:00 AM »

The final enemies in the alpha right now are the sinusoidal moving skirmishers that attack with groups of bandits inbetween them that you encounter just after the two big sheild walls that come out from the bottom and then top of the screen.

D'oh! There's enough of a gap where the previous alpha ended that I just stopped there.

If you play the level PERFECTLY which is killing every loot awarding enemy that spawns and taking zero losses yourself, you can get a doppel soldier before you come to the shield walls.

Yup, I'm pretty much perfect on the stuff from the previous alpha. Wink I hate to admit how many times I've pulled that out and run through it...
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James Edward Smith
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« Reply #107 on: December 01, 2014, 08:23:07 AM »

AlexVsCoding: Cheers man.

jgrams: I'm interested to see what you think of the shield walls and the pattern that comes after them. I think the shield walls need some tweaking. Defeating them completely is definitely possible, but feels a little awkward. I like the feel of the smaller ones that sort of rush you or pace back and forth. I mean, all in all, I need to iron out level design/patterns a lot more, but I'm happy that stuff basically works in general right now.

I'm not satisfied with how doppel soldiers feel right now, they don't feel wieldly enough, but I don't want to improve them in a way that makes them too powerful. I want them to either feel like something that solves a problem you could usually solve with pike and shot, but more quickly? That or feel like they solve a problem that is awkward to solve with pike and shot. I dunno, but they need work. Maybe they just need to dash out even faster than they do, like leap out or something. It might come down to adjusting level design so that there's instances where they are useful. At least they'd be helpful against the first boss, I'm confident in that.

I'm working on an other kind of doppel soldier now called the Arbalist.



These will probably be the actual doppel soldier of La Pucelle, with the current zweihander guys being the one for some one else (Il Condottiere or The Red Prince perhaps). Arbalists need some animation work before they look cool though. When they come out, they are going to really SLAM their pavice down in an over head motion that should sell the fact that they can knock back or even kill guys when they place their pavice. Then they loose off a few volleys at anything that is in a tight cone in front of them before retiring back to the formation. Their pavices can block 2 shots before they go down and will tie up melee troops for a second giving the arbalest a chance to shoot them before they're attacked. The idea for their behaviour is sort of inspired by the "options" one of the planes in one of the Strikers 1945 games has where they just shoot for a long time in one position when you activate them. Its a good move to have in a shmup because you can aim them at a thing you want to shoot at a lot and then you're free to dodge around while your special attack sustains fire down that horizontal (or in the case of Strikers 1945, vertical) line.

But arbalists have the added bonus of also shielding you from projectiles.

Heh, now all I can hear is Strikers 1945 music in my head.
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« Reply #108 on: December 02, 2014, 02:12:24 PM »

there's a game called Pike and Shot on steam

http://store.steampowered.com/app/312390/

dunno if u knew that already
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James Edward Smith
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« Reply #109 on: December 02, 2014, 04:56:40 PM »

Pike'n Shot, Anty.

nnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn

Like that. There are no ampersands here!

There's tons of table top games already called Pike & Shot or Pike & Shotte, etc. It was only a matter of time until some strategy game company made a PC version.

BUT, I uphold that I had the name first. However, I don't care. I'm calling it Pike'n Shot for now (Like Ghosts'n Goblins) even though that's wrong, it should really be Pike 'n' Shot like that, but that's how Capcom did it, so I'll follow suit.

I'm debating just calling it something totally different like "Condottiere" or "Tercio". But I like Pike'n Shot as those are literally your two buttons and they will be labelled as such on the arcade cabinet.
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« Reply #110 on: December 04, 2014, 08:07:19 PM »

The latest version runs just fine here (nice!), so I could finally see this little gem of a game for myself...

B E A U T I F U L

That pixel art!

Plays so nice, concept is really cool.

Just curios: is there any reason at all for the player not to keep the pikes constantly lowered, when in front?
(it wouldn't be difficult for you to make up a compensation for that, e.g. in terms of diminished formation speed --maybe, just sideways-- or something, so, judging by how much you seem to know your stuff, I guess you probably considered that and decided against it already)
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« Reply #111 on: December 05, 2014, 06:35:25 AM »

jgrams: I'm interested to see what you think of the shield walls and the pattern that comes after them. I think the shield walls need some tweaking. Defeating them completely is definitely possible, but feels a little awkward. I like the feel of the smaller ones that sort of rush you or pace back and forth.

Hmm...yeah, I can see how they're a little odd from a level-design perspective: it's tricky to kill the ranged guys, but on the other hand you can easily stand back and just shoot the shields or walk around and avoid engaging them at all, so from a pacing/tension perspective they're fairly low-key. That makes them feel kind of like bonus points to me. Maybe you could play on that? Give the ranged guys a treasure chest or a captive soldier that they carry away with them when they run?

Or, as I'm sure you've realized, you could lower the difficulty slightly by not having the stream of bandits blocking your shots...

I like the sinusoidal formations at the end. It's fun trying to catch them at the right point in their path. And then you get caught up dealing with the first two sets and the third comes up and shoots you while you're not paying attention.

I'm not satisfied with how doppel soldiers feel right now, they don't feel wieldy enough, but I don't want to improve them in a way that makes them too powerful.

Yeah, I haven't quite figured out how they work yet. I keep accidentally sending them right into an enemy shot.



Two other things occurred to me (feel free to tell me to shut up, BTW. I just find this game really fascinating for some reason. Nice mix of simplicity and interesting dynamics).

It feels like you have a lot of health and guys dying is more a problem because you have to wait for them to catch up (and losing the doppel coffer) than because you're worried about your formation retreating. Maybe they should cost more?

And I feel like the ranged guys are the only ones which are really threatening. If it's just shields, even if they get right on top of you, you just push them back with your pikes until you can shoot them. I wonder if you might want to make them slightly more dangerous? Maybe they can break your pikes eventually, and the soldier then has to retreat to get another one? Or if a pike can only block one shield, so they can pile up and overwhelm you? Or...?
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« Reply #112 on: December 05, 2014, 04:13:38 PM »

This looks super unique and interesting!
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« Reply #113 on: December 07, 2014, 04:02:26 PM »

Played some more... To restate, I really like the way the alpha demo looks. Amazing work!!!

I think I would prefer it if the riflemen not in 1st row (i.e. the ones not about to shoot) would rather keep their weapons pointing upward, lowering as they do now only upon reaching their turn in the first row (or maybe second too). This would also solve the minor graphical glitch of the tips of their rifles colliding with the guys marching in front of them.

Also, I think I would like the victims (both sides) to be get maybe grayed and/or darkened but not to disappear after becoming corpses. Same for landed spears / etc. I love when a battlefield ends up looking like one! Hopefully, graying/darkening them would be enough to avoid that they are distracting for gameplay?
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« Reply #114 on: December 09, 2014, 01:21:14 PM »

Hi, James Edward Smith, I just want to say I registered an account here purely so I could offer my resounding encouragement on behalf of a fair few people who really enjoyed what you're putting together here. As a bunch fascinated by the warfare of the Early Modern period we instantly fell head of over heels in love with the first little demo you put out.

Obviously music is probably quite low on your list of priorities at the moment, but when it comes time to add a soundtrack, will you consider putting in a version of Jorge von Frundsberg, Fuhrt Uns An in?
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« Reply #115 on: December 11, 2014, 04:51:59 PM »

mtarini: Thanks for all the kind words I'm glad you enjoy the game so far.

Just curios: is there any reason at all for the player not to keep the pikes constantly lowered, when in front?
(it wouldn't be difficult for you to make up a compensation for that, e.g. in terms of diminished formation speed --maybe, just sideways-- or something, so, judging by how much you seem to know your stuff, I guess you probably considered that and decided against it already)

Right now, as it stands, the only reasons to raise your pikes are so that you can shoot or for better dodging purposes. What I mean by the latter is that when you have your pikes down, your pikemen will automatically target enemies that are near the formation and get in front of them with their pikes. This could cause one of your pikemen to inadvertently move up or down, past the standard width of your formation and thus possibly get him it by say, a projectile that you were narrowly avoiding. So short of shooting, that's the only real reason to raise your pikes is when you're trying to avoid close call shots like that.

Honestly I'm fine with this. making the formation slower or something SOUNDS like a good idea, but honestly, pikes are your primary attack. Megaman doesn't have to slow down when he shoots his megabuster and neither does Pike'n Shot's tercio slow down when they lower their pikes. I want to encourage you to use your pikes as often as you can. It's not apparent in the current build, but eventually, the harder levels in the game will require you to be very careful when you use a volley and when you don't and so I want to make the pike option easy. It's already ham-stringed by the fact that it isn't as far ranged as shooting and can't break shields, etc. But we'll see, I may eventually decide it needs some sort of balance nerf.



That makes them feel kind of like bonus points to me. Maybe you could play on that? Give the ranged guys a treasure chest or a captive soldier that they carry away with them when they run?

Yeah, this was the original idea. I have treasure hauler type saurian sprited up, but I just haven't implemented him yet. I'm still trying to figure out how many powerups/coins/etc I really need to have in the game and how to treat them. I want to have formation commanders show up as rescuable so that you can change what kind of doppel soldier you get. But if I do that, it brings up some questions. If they just change your special attack to a different but not stronger one then they should be easy to rescue if they just work like a current power up toggle. If I make the rescues difficult then they would need to either have more powerful doppel soldiers than the default ones OR they'd need to unlock that formation leader as a selectable one or something.

I'm not 100% sure what to do. I mean, the easy answer is just to have gold haulers that you can kill for a lot of coins, but then I have to make doppel soldiers fun enough to use that you want to get them and it feels like a good reward to have them. Maybe they should be more consumable than they are now? Like, they have a huge effect, but they are just one use? That might be fun. Like, have each "use" represented by a single soldier, but when you use one, it actually summons a ton of them who do a BIG effect.

I've been messing around with the two I have now, the zweihander guys and the arbalists. I've made it so that the former attacks 3 guys before returning to your formation. He seems a lot better now even just with that. The arbalist seems pretty decent. He comes out, places his pavise, and then fires 5 shots before returning, but if you move significantly past him with you formation, he'll abandon shooting and return to you immediately.

But the answer might be to have a REALLY big effect. Like have a single zweihander use cause a stream of them come out and wipe out everyone in a big circle around you, that sort of thing. This might solve a lingering concern I have. Right now using doppel soldiers might require a little too much forethought. You have to think about what kind you have and then think about what instances using them would be useful in. I think it might over complicate the game. I think I'd much rather have it so that pike and shot are the only tools you have to worry about solving puzzles/problems with as you play. Doppel Soldiers should just be a flashy get out of jail card. Not totally screen clearing or anything, but close to it.

Some other ideas are musicians like drummers and flute players who make your formation faster or maybe even grant other buffs as well.

Quote
It feels like you have a lot of health and guys dying is more a problem because you have to wait for them to catch up (and losing the doppel coffer) than because you're worried about your formation retreating. Maybe they should cost more?

Yeah, I think I made the maxes too high. I'm going to try halving both of them and see how that goes.

Quote
And I feel like the ranged guys are the only ones which are really threatening. If it's just shields, even if they get right on top of you, you just push them back with your pikes until you can shoot them. I wonder if you might want to make them slightly more dangerous? Maybe they can break your pikes eventually, and the soldier then has to retreat to get another one? Or if a pike can only block one shield, so they can pile up and overwhelm you? Or...?

Originally I had it so that one pike blocked one shield. I can't remember why I changed that, whether it was a feel reason or a bug reason. As it is though, I'm fine with their being shield guys that just stack up and can't get through. That's nuisance enough because basically, you can't shoot past them until you deal with them. I'm going to have harder guys later who have the added threat that they will actually chop through your pikes if you leave them down once you initially block them, so you'll need to raise your pikes to dodge their attack after you first block them.



eblomquist: Thanks!



Quote from: mtarini
Also, I think I would like the victims (both sides) to be get maybe grayed and/or darkened but not to disappear after becoming corpses. Same for landed spears / etc. I love when a battlefield ends up looking like one! Hopefully, graying/darkening them would be enough to avoid that they are distracting for gameplay?

This is an interesting idea, but I worried about it causing too much visual noise on screen in certain instances. I'll try it out though.



Hi, James Edward Smith, I just want to say I registered an account here purely so I could offer my resounding encouragement on behalf of a fair few people who really enjoyed what you're putting together here. As a bunch fascinated by the warfare of the Early Modern period we instantly fell head of over heels in love with the first little demo you put out.

Obviously music is probably quite low on your list of priorities at the moment, but when it comes time to add a soundtrack, will you consider putting in a version of Jorge von Frundsberg, Fuhrt Uns An in?

A fair few people? Are you a pike block?

I've actually put out feelers for composers for the game after admitting to myself that I should probably take a short cut on this and not just spend time trying to learn how to compose music myself until I made something worthwhile (maybe next game). I've had a few bites and I'll probably put something into the next build by a TIGSource member who's been making some great stuff for the game.



Anyway, sorry I haven't had any updates for a bit. I had to take a last minute business trip down to San Francisco recently for my day-job and my girlfriend recently found out she has a gallstone that needs to be removed surgically. So I've been a little preoccupied. I'm trying to get going on this again though. I have some vacation time coming up next week though and extending until after the holidays, so my plan is to hunker down and get some work done.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2014, 04:58:25 PM by James Edward Smith » Logged

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« Reply #116 on: December 12, 2014, 05:39:17 AM »

Looks like fun.
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« Reply #117 on: December 12, 2014, 08:30:38 AM »

@DarthBenedict Thanks man, your arena shooter looks super flashy. Neat looking weapon effects in it. I like how full of life their pathing looks a lot of the time.



So, I think I solved my doppel soldier design problem. I didn't like what I'd made up until now for multiple reasons; my little crossbow guys with the shields felt BETTER than the zweihander sword guys but they still felt awkward. They feel effective, but not more effective enough to make them not just feel like a pointless tacked on thing. Making the zweihander guys more powerful, made them feel better, but made them TOO powerful and broke the game (once you have a couple of them you can just pound their button to beat anything without thinking).

Then I realized that your doppel soldiers are supposed to be like a power up in a shmup but I've kind of been treating them like weaker version of a "bomb" in a shmup. Usually when you get a powerup in a shmup it's not something that you have to press a new button for to activate or that you have to think of when to use, it's just a modifier to your regular attack to make it better or different in some way. So thinking about it that way, I think I'll just make them modify your normal two attacks, Pike and Shot.

So the zweihander guys, they will attack guys who are infont of your pikes when you have your pikes down, thus modifying your pike attack to make it better (kills guys pikes can't usually kill by slashing at them). The crossbow guys (arbalists) will come forward and drop their shields and loose off bolts whenever you have your shot forward, reloading and shooting when ever you're still and picking up their shields and relocating them whenever you move. I like this because it makes there a point to gaining more of them one at a time because you basically get a bigger and bigger shield that blocks one projectile but doesn't stop melee guys so it sort of fits the overall feel of the game, "you should generally deal with melee guys with pikes when your shot are endangered by them".

I'm going to try this out and see if I like it better. I hope it works out because I really don't like how you have to use a different input to trigger doppel soldiers right now and I don't like how you have to think too much about when and how to use them. It's too complicated, and it doesn't add enough.

Then I can get to work on some better level design, saurian bandits that try to ambush you out of bushes like jerks, and finally this f***ing cool guy.

« Last Edit: December 12, 2014, 11:31:48 AM by James Edward Smith » Logged

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« Reply #118 on: December 12, 2014, 08:55:51 AM »

Yeah, I've been playing with the idea of aping on the sort of terrible perspective and depiction of relative scale that you see in a lot of late medieval art. You know, stuff like castle defenders barely fitting into tiny towers and that sort of thing. It sort of rhymes with the art of old sprite-based games in a lot of ways.

I really love that idea. It will make the game's art stand out even more. And like you said, old pixel art games are basically already doing that. Some out-game art (cutscenes/stills) can drive the point home that it is intentional.

I like the game concept too, it's one of those things that is easy to understand, but then it is also immediately obvious that there can be a lot of depth to the mechanic.
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« Reply #119 on: December 12, 2014, 09:07:17 AM »

A fair few people? Are you a pike block?

In spirit, if not in form.

I've had a few bites and I'll probably put something into the next build by a TIGSource member who's been making some great stuff for the game.

If you could show him/her Jorge von Frundsberg, Fuhrt Uns An and a few other related landsknecht songs such as Unsere Liebe Fraue to sample, assuming they haven't already investigated, that would be fantastic. They are insanely catchy!

Die Drummen, die Drummen!
« Last Edit: December 12, 2014, 09:16:12 AM by 100thlurker » Logged
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