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TIGSource ForumsPlayerGeneralblood, sweat and tears.
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fish
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« on: April 04, 2007, 09:25:03 AM »

i figured out whats missing from videogames.
blood, sweat and tears.

some time ago i got to see guitar wolf in this cool little venue in montreal.
for those who dont know, guitar wolf was the most amazing japanese punk-rock psychobilly outfit there ever was. like japanese ramones but...more japanese.

they gave the bets rock show ive ever seen.
it was seriously the single most rock and roll thing i had ever seen.
guitar wolf, guitarist and singer, this small japanese dude with leather jacket and pants, and wearing sunglasses was just jumping all over like a fucking MAD MAN.
climbing on top of amps, jumping down, landing on his guitar.

at some point the guy completely tore open the side of his hand but kept on playing. the guitar was covered in blood. the strings were all bloody. his hands were all bloody. there was blood on the floor. but he kept playing. he kept screaming and running all over.

i was in the front row, leaning against the stage. i was literally (and i mean that in the correct sense of the word) sprayed with wolfie's blood, sweat and spit.

at some point in the middle of a "solo" he just thre his guitar on t5he ground and kicked it towards the audience for everybpdy to play with. hit it, slap it, whatever. everybody played with the bloody guitar. everybody made a lot of loud noises. and the band kept playing.

it. was. amazing.

i was blown away.
ive always had music-envy but thatw as pushing it a bit.

so, as much as i love videogames, i wish there was more blood, sweat and tears involved. more brutal, kinetic passion. i want to take whats inside and just throw it all there in all its messy, dirty, bloody glory.

all this talk about emotion in games. people sitting around with flowcharts and diagrams, trying to "design" emotion. and failing miserably.

whereas some small japanese dude just had to scream and bleed to get his point across.


when was the last time you drew blood while making a game?
when was the last time you actually broke a sweat?
when was the last time MAKING a game made you cry?

broken AC dosent count.
and i know tons of people who ended up breaking up in tears in a meeting because the fucking hated their job and couldnt deal with the bullshit anymore.
me included.

i love videogames. but what i hate about them is that its so hard to pour myself into them. but figuratively and literaly.
i wish making games involved more than sitting at a desk.
i wish it involved more great big violent strokes,
more running, more screaming.

i wish games were rock and roll.





...



im so in the wrong business.
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axel
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« Reply #1 on: April 04, 2007, 09:34:20 AM »

I wonder if Pixel was screaming and tearing his keyboard apart while making Cave Story. Ha, Japanese people Grin
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« Reply #2 on: April 04, 2007, 10:27:22 AM »

Games are way, way too distant to be punk like punk rock. Guitar Wolf (was about to write Hero...) had this way of pulling the crowd in through their fierceness. It's the same thing that Iggy Pop would do when he drank on stage, smashed bottles, and rolled around in glass. In a way it's like the circus. In a way it's like gladitorial combat. But mostly it's just fascinating bullshit.

But games don't have that immediate sense of person. Some critics of film would say that film is a worse form of art than theater because there are no actors present The actors are thousands of miles away sitting on piles of money (or apple crates, depending on how artsy the film was). That distance is multiplied by the falseness of staging the scene and editing and post processing afterwards. That's why we go to punk rock shows instead of have some snotty producer film it for us.

That's not to say game designers can't embody punk rock. Please make a nod towards Goichi Suda. Doing things your way and exploring boundaries has been a punk thing since before punk was called punk. Now, we can talk about how blues started out as nigger music when black people were called niggers, how that evolved through jazz, rock, punk, metal, rap, and probably a thousand other things as you get smaller and more select... but it's all the same.

Imagine being a poor black man in the 1920s. You are looking for a job from the white man. The white man is a son of one of your former father's owner. The oppression is ever so prevalent among you and your kin, but you are in a position where you cannot do anything different. You tell the white man that you will work for him so he can give you that shiny trumpet he makes. You learn how to play that trumpet so the white man and his children can enjoy your music. And then when you go home you make different music for you and your friends. You make sadder music, happier music, whatever fits your needs. It gets shit done so you can wake up again to work for someone you hate to make enough money to buy some food to feed yourself and your family.

Let's not get into how Malcom X came around and tried changing everything. He was totally fucking cool, too. In the end, though, all it means is this:

Fuck the man, do things your way

Try to plug this into game design. It becomes hard to look at punk rock music as a starting point for games. There are other examples, and though they are less dramatic, they work better as far as your MO. Literary music is kind of a weird thing to say, but literary games is a little more acceptable. Writers and directors seem to be just as behind the scenes as we are, so that seems like a good place to look for inspiration and heroes. As far as actual punk rock games, anything online is a start, but I think you'll have to wade through a ton of trash.

Actually, I'm here because Derek seems to embody the fuck the man mantra more than any indie game maker I know. Though, that's not to say he can't bleed, sweat, and cry a little more.
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« Reply #3 on: April 04, 2007, 11:07:06 AM »

This dude, he didn't have any communicable diseases, right?
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« Reply #4 on: April 04, 2007, 11:10:13 AM »

Enjoy your AIDS then, I guess Wink
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« Reply #5 on: April 04, 2007, 12:30:05 PM »

Games are way, way too distant to be punk like punk rock. Guitar Wolf (was about to write Hero...) had this way of pulling the crowd in through their fierceness. It's the same thing that Iggy Pop would do when he drank on stage, smashed bottles, and rolled around in glass. In a way it's like the circus. In a way it's like gladitorial combat. But mostly it's just fascinating bullshit.

But games don't have that immediate sense of person. Some critics of film would say that film is a worse form of art than theater because there are no actors present The actors are thousands of miles away sitting on piles of money (or apple crates, depending on how artsy the film was). That distance is multiplied by the falseness of staging the scene and editing and post processing afterwards. That's why we go to punk rock shows instead of have some snotty producer film it for us.

That's not to say game designers can't embody punk rock. Please make a nod towards Goichi Suda. Doing things your way and exploring boundaries has been a punk thing since before punk was called punk. Now, we can talk about how blues started out as nigger music when black people were called niggers, how that evolved through jazz, rock, punk, metal, rap, and probably a thousand other things as you get smaller and more select... but it's all the same.

Imagine being a poor black man in the 1920s. You are looking for a job from the white man. The white man is a son of one of your former father's owner. The oppression is ever so prevalent among you and your kin, but you are in a position where you cannot do anything different. You tell the white man that you will work for him so he can give you that shiny trumpet he makes. You learn how to play that trumpet so the white man and his children can enjoy your music. And then when you go home you make different music for you and your friends. You make sadder music, happier music, whatever fits your needs. It gets shit done so you can wake up again to work for someone you hate to make enough money to buy some food to feed yourself and your family.

Let's not get into how Malcom X came around and tried changing everything. He was totally fucking cool, too. In the end, though, all it means is this:

Fuck the man, do things your way

Try to plug this into game design. It becomes hard to look at punk rock music as a starting point for games. There are other examples, and though they are less dramatic, they work better as far as your MO. Literary music is kind of a weird thing to say, but literary games is a little more acceptable. Writers and directors seem to be just as behind the scenes as we are, so that seems like a good place to look for inspiration and heroes. As far as actual punk rock games, anything online is a start, but I think you'll have to wade through a ton of trash.

Actually, I'm here because Derek seems to embody the fuck the man mantra more than any indie game maker I know. Though, that's not to say he can't bleed, sweat, and cry a little more.

DONT get me started on goichi suda.
he's as far removed from "punk" as you can be.
after his talk at GDC some indie dude asked him ways the indie crowd could make "punk games" too. his advice was basicly "find lots of money and befriend a powerful producer"
because suda51 thinks that for a game to be a "real game" it has to be on a console. so anything INDIE, made by people who care because they want to, with little to no funds and with any tools they can get, well THAT just isnt very punk now is it? lots of money and major labels....THATS punk.

he just kept saying "punk games this" and "punk games that" without ever saying what makes a game punk or how to make on except that you needs lots of money and it needs to be on a console.

i loved killer7 (terrible game, GREAT experience) and im looking forward to no more heroes, but suda51 can go fuck himself.


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« Reply #6 on: April 04, 2007, 01:27:09 PM »

Why do we even care to label games and the creation processes, let's just make the god damn games whatever we want, in whatever style we want...  Lips Sealed

I love Killer7, and I don't love it for what Suda says it is, but how I experience it. I don't say I'm "indie" to make me sound like I struggle against some norm, I just say I make games.

I'm ranting again.  Sad
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« Reply #7 on: April 04, 2007, 01:48:47 PM »

when was the last time MAKING a game made you cry?

I guess I'm not emo enough to actually start crying, but I have a strong emotional connection with the 'life' of the stuff I create. I think this is evident in anyone who's ever made anything and thrust it upon the public, for all to judge. It's the reason why I still get the same 'oh shit' feeling right before I hit POST that I got when I was just starting out as an artist.

I mean, it might not be as romantic as powering through a guitar solo with an exposed artery, but in essence it's all the same love.

Enjoy your AIDS then, I guess Wink
fucking LOL  :D
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« Reply #8 on: April 04, 2007, 02:15:25 PM »

DONT get me started on goichi suda.
he's as far removed from "punk" as you can be.
after his talk at GDC some indie dude asked him ways the indie crowd could make "punk games" too. his advice was basicly "find lots of money and befriend a powerful producer"
because suda51 thinks that for a game to be a "real game" it has to be on a console. so anything INDIE, made by people who care because they want to, with little to no funds and with any tools they can get, well THAT just isnt very punk now is it? lots of money and major labels....THATS punk.

he just kept saying "punk games this" and "punk games that" without ever saying what makes a game punk or how to make on except that you needs lots of money and it needs to be on a console.

i loved killer7 (terrible game, GREAT experience) and im looking forward to no more heroes, but suda51 can go fuck himself.

Dude, punk isn't have or have not. It's about doing through whatever means are at your disposal. Japanese game development is way different than it is here. Kojima is a good example, too. Here's a question: what's the point of being different if the only people who you're being different for are.. well different? Preaching to the choir is boring.
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« Reply #9 on: April 04, 2007, 02:40:29 PM »

DONT get me started on goichi suda.
he's as far removed from "punk" as you can be.
after his talk at GDC some indie dude asked him ways the indie crowd could make "punk games" too. his advice was basicly "find lots of money and befriend a powerful producer"
because suda51 thinks that for a game to be a "real game" it has to be on a console. so anything INDIE, made by people who care because they want to, with little to no funds and with any tools they can get, well THAT just isnt very punk now is it? lots of money and major labels....THATS punk.

he just kept saying "punk games this" and "punk games that" without ever saying what makes a game punk or how to make on except that you needs lots of money and it needs to be on a console.

i loved killer7 (terrible game, GREAT experience) and im looking forward to no more heroes, but suda51 can go fuck himself.

Dude, punk isn't have or have not. It's about doing through whatever means are at your disposal. Japanese game development is way different than it is here. Kojima is a good example, too. Here's a question: what's the point of being different if the only people who you're being different for are.. well different? Preaching to the choir is boring.

well, the whole thing is pretty vague so lets not get into an argument here.
to me punk is like...7 years in the 70s and then it died. so there.
but the guy just totally pissed me off with his answer. poor indie guy justw anted some clarity and Mr. Suda just goes "sorry, indie games cant be punk. you need money".

it just blew me away.

screw punk games.
i wanna make post-punk games and then kill myself at 23.
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« Reply #10 on: April 04, 2007, 02:55:09 PM »

Well, there's a truth to that. People making punk rock in the 70s were making a ton of money. Their extravagance was unprecedented. Until Glam Rock, Metal, pop rap, etc. etc.

Though Suda is pretty much wrong. Indie developers in the US are much more organized and can rock the fuck out way better than indie developers in Japan. That our presence on the internet is so widespread lets have power along the lines of what Suda thinks is necessary for a punk rock game.
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« Reply #11 on: April 04, 2007, 03:11:05 PM »

I dunno, have you seen the Angry Video Game Nerd?  That guy's pretty brutal and visceral. :D

But seriously, it really just comes down to a passion for what you do, a willingness to make something meaningful, even if (especially if?) it defies convention, and the determination to carry it through.  If you find it hard to pour yourself into games, then I daresay you may have a hard time pouring yourself into art, music, etc.

An artist sits at an easel, a musician sits with a guitar, an athlete runs around a field, a game developer sits in front of a computer.  In the end, everyone's working their ass off for those few, precious moments of sheer and utter joy when your work pays off, when success is achieved... Guitar Wolf only spends a fraction of their time bleeding and sweating and spitting all over you, and the majority of their time thinking, practicing, repeating.  Probably in an AC'd room.  And these days, even athletes have to spend at least some time in front of a computer.

(Btw, RIP Billy "Bass Wolf" Cry)

Games are exciting as fuck to me, and so ridiculously punk in general because nobody friggin' understands them.  They are not talked about in polite society... the general consensus is that video games drive people to violence, and there are so many misconceptions.  Even my mom can understand why music is cool, but if you're in games, you have to do it because you really love it and you don't give a fuck what people think.  You have to make it cool.

Not only that, but game development has it all: art, music, technology... more interaction with the audience (perhaps not in the physical manner you're describing, but interaction with the art itself).  Fuck man, when you go to a Guitar Wolf concert, you're listening to their music and getting spit on from a stage.  When you play my game, you are not only immersed in a world that I created, but you're actively involved.

If it's the physicality that you're missing from game development, well, I dunno...  Look at Dan Tabar (Data), that guy could probably punch a bear to death, and he's in games.  Look at Jon Mak, the musician... he plays guitar and develops games around his music.  (Btw, there's a guy who really doesn't give a fuck about what anyone else think of him! Kiss)  Look at anyone who's worked on a team and stayed up all night with one another because they all cared about the project enough.  The majority of the time is spent in front of a computer, but as I said before, if you're going to be good at anything, you have to spend hours not on stage, not in front of an audience, but in front of an inanimate object... and whether it's an easel, a guitar, or a keyboard, it doesn't really matter.  If anything, games give you the opportunity to wield all three.
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« Reply #12 on: April 04, 2007, 03:15:11 PM »

By the way, Data sent me this link:

http://features.cgsociety.org/stories/2007_04/massive/player.php

If a bunch of digital artfags can put on a get-together like that, surely some indie developers could, also?  But maybe minus some of the gothic-industrial themage? Wink
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« Reply #13 on: April 04, 2007, 03:18:27 PM »

i love videogames. but what i hate about them is that its so hard to pour myself into them. but figuratively and literaly.
i wish making games involved more than sitting at a desk.
i wish it involved more great big violent strokes,
more running, more screaming.

Yeah, work with some people you hate, and develop an ego/passion for a game and art style that your team can't actually pull off, causing you to get all pissy fist fighting.   Tongue

Games aren't rock and roll.  To a degree, many of us leave the retail games industry to escape past a mental equivalent of this.  The quiet introverted programmer mentality is strongly capable of bottling the rage up.

Game development can be considered a science of experiences.  We develop experiences.  The process needs it's own chaos, but you need the understanding of your experience to be able to craft it.  I don't doubt that you can develop something of interest drunk or all doped up, but not without some strong middleware to take the thinking edge off.  But there's a lot of straight thinking that goes in developing a compelling product.
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« Reply #14 on: April 04, 2007, 03:39:45 PM »

R.I.P bass wolf indeed.
he passed away like a week or so after i saw them.

i think you struck a chord.
when peoplem play games, theyre in your world.
if it really IS your world, then its terribly personal experience.
which is great. and i love that.
but what i envy most about music and other more performance oriented discipline is the imediate intimacy you get from a live show. you are there, the artist is there, and you are in his world too. but as the artist, you can to interact with your audience.

i tried to bring this..."instant gratification" with the first GAMMA. all the games were played for the very first time by the public at the very same time. in the company of their creators. it was really quite amazing. but not quite there yet.

id also really like to just sit down with my laptop and "improvise" a videogame out of thin air. thatd be nice.

but what i really like about making games right now is that i get to know the people making the games. like Jon. i met Jon for the first time at GDC, i knew a bunch about him as we have a lot of the same friends. but now that im getting to know the guy, his game is completely different now. i love that. to be able to have this conection between creator and creation.

they say games are the new rock and roll.
designers are the new rockstars.
harmonix is the new MTV.
if thats true, then we are the ramones. this is our CBGB.
and we are awesome.

but ill never get to bleed on anybody on stage.



or will i?
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« Reply #15 on: April 04, 2007, 03:42:53 PM »

yeah i give us a big pat on the back.
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Derek
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« Reply #16 on: April 04, 2007, 03:44:46 PM »

but ill never get to bleed on anybody on stage.



or will i?

One word: PainStation.





You just have to use your noggin' a little more to figure out how to inflict brutality on people with games. Grin
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« Reply #17 on: April 04, 2007, 04:30:53 PM »

I really don't think most people would enjoy bleeding while trying to have fun.

You can always glue razors to your gamepads though.
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« Reply #18 on: April 04, 2007, 05:59:34 PM »

If they're not bleeding while playing my game, they're not playing it right.  Lips Sealed
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« Reply #19 on: April 04, 2007, 06:04:52 PM »

is...is that a real gom jabbar?
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