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TIGSource ForumsDeveloperDesignGame Design Cheat Sheet
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DecapitatedOrk
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« Reply #40 on: January 01, 2011, 04:10:44 PM »

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ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)
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« Reply #41 on: January 01, 2011, 04:43:54 PM »

As a small note, Jesse runs Schell Games on the side in addition to his teaching job.  You can see some of the games they've worked on here: http://www.schellgames.com/projects/

thanks, good to see he's not flying completely blind. still, according to that he'd been making games only for three years before he wrote a book on it, and even less before he started teaching it in a university. if this were any other subject but game design, wouldn't that feel a bit weird? would you want to learn chemistry from a university professor who had only been a chemist for three years? and that's an actual science.

my intent isn't to personally attack everyone who writes books on game design though, it's just to recognize that, with rare exceptions, most of them have very little experience making games. they probably don't know much more about game design than the average person on this forum does, yet they say claim to be able to teach it to others. i just wish they were more humble about it, and not write in such a way as if they felt they had all the answers (coming up with rules and so on).

Why make it a book? If you think you could do a good job with a workshop-style teaching method why not start up a thread here with exercises and suchlike?

There was a similar thing started for level design a few months back, it's not still going but I found it useful at the time and would be very interested in other similar projects.

the main reason to make it a book would be to compete with all the other terrible books and hopefully displace them with something more reasonable and useful to beginning developers than the gobblygook they're being fed. but there's no reason we can't do it on the forum too, sure. but we already sort of do that with contests: ludum dare, tigsource contests, and all the other thematic small contests are basically exactly what i would recommend the beginning game designer do anyway.

it's just that, in the game design classroom, they *don't* do the kind of helpful stuff people on this forum generally do. likewise with the 14-year-old who sees a game design book in the store and reads it; he doesn't know how to start making games at all, and has no experience programming, and is far more likely to be misled by these books than people with game design experience are. so i think a book would help reduce all the 14-year-olds out there who fill their heads with ideas about what game design "should" be like even before they've made one.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2011, 04:54:59 PM by Paul Eres » Logged

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« Reply #42 on: January 02, 2011, 03:01:36 AM »

DO IT!
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ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)
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« Reply #43 on: January 02, 2011, 03:30:49 AM »

i might, but not yet; i don't have much time right now as i'm still working on making my own games popular/profitable enough to survive as an indie. but after i've reached a comfortable level (where i can live just off the games i make), which will probably be some years away, i'd try to turn that experience into opportunity for others.

it's like, if i took the other route and started promoting books and teaching people (even if it's just recommending ways that someone can self-teach themselves) without being a well-known game developer i'd be just as bad as all the people who do do that, even if i do have more experience than average (making games for 15 years and all).

so maybe in another 15 years? 30 years of experience feels like a lot more teachable experience than 15 years. even now i'm uncomfortable answering questions from people (e.g. formspring, i get a lot of questions about what people should do when making games, when they should decide to sell games, how they should form teams, whether they should use engines or pure programming, and other stuff) and i often feel too unqualified to answer, even though my answers are probably better for them than most they'd get from these types of books.

or, if i did it sooner, it'd be as a collaboration with others, since collective experience is usually better than individual experience. it'd be great to see a book that asks basic game design questions / topics and gives various indies' thoughts on those subjects (increpare, cactus, etc.). something like that would be fun to edit or set up.
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« Reply #44 on: January 02, 2011, 04:34:17 AM »

I don't really know a lot about individual indie devs' knowledge of game design theory. It'd be interesting to do some "research" on some of my faves in that respect and find out what percentage of them has formally studied game design.

"Formally"? That seems like a curious thing to care about.

I've been "studying" game design for over twenty years, but never in a formal way because it happens to be the case that the best sources of game design ideas are not formal courses. Even books are arguably not a good medium for game design ideas, because good ideas are small and books are big.

The other factor is that there isn't much consensus over who the great designers really are. Reiner Knizia might seem like an uncontroversial choice, but his games are all quite similar in style. Richard Garfield is highly regarded, but is little known except to Magic the Gathering players. Shigeru Miyamoto is often namechecked as a great designer, but I'm not sure if he might not be better classified as a great producer. In reality, most of this generation's best designers work for games corporations and we don't know their names.

The best designer I've ever spoken to is a guy called Richard Halliwell. Do you know who he is without looking him up? I doubt it. He's my hero as a designer. He made great games and refused to stop doing so. So Games Workshop basically sacked him for it!
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« Reply #45 on: January 02, 2011, 05:07:18 AM »

The best designer I've ever spoken to is a guy called Richard Halliwell. Do you know who he is without looking him up? I doubt it. He's my hero as a designer. He made great games and refused to stop doing so. So Games Workshop basically sacked him for it!
Sounds like an interesting story.  Link?  (I did a search myself buy nothing came up)
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« Reply #46 on: January 02, 2011, 11:15:42 AM »

Sounds like an interesting story. Link?

Hehe - hardly! To start with, this predates the web (!). Secondly, it's first hand. Back when I was at school (in the late 80s) I was very involved in the GW scene and used to playtest games for them as a freelancer.

The game in question was Battlefleet Gothic. The published version is credited to Andy Chambers and isn't much good. The playtest version was written by Richard Halliwell and never published. Rumour has it that there was a huge bunfight over it which resulted in his departure.
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« Reply #47 on: January 02, 2011, 11:44:31 AM »

I don't really know a lot about individual indie devs' knowledge of game design theory. It'd be interesting to do some "research" on some of my faves in that respect and find out what percentage of them has formally studied game design.

"Formally"? That seems like a curious thing to care about.
My use of the word "formal" was probably wrong. I'd include people who have read lots of books on the subject and follow some "formula" or "philosophy" derived from those books in that category , not just the ones who took courses.
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« Reply #48 on: January 07, 2011, 01:14:20 PM »

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