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keithw84
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« on: December 22, 2010, 04:10:49 PM »

im starting on a retro styled RPG with NES graphics, its going to remind you of the first zelda however it wont be just a remake or anything, i am involving my own style of gameplay and my own sprites of course. Im completing a little each day, and my development can be followed at http://burntpixelproductions.wordpress.com

I plan on doing it all myself however if anyone wishes to contribute, i'll take all the help i can get Wink

(being done in gamemaker 8 pro for now. as i am not so good with programming aha :$
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Pineapple
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« Reply #1 on: December 22, 2010, 05:02:24 PM »

Might I suggest using an NES pallet and restricting your sprites and tiles to 4 colors each (including transparency)? The only exception to the 4 colors/sprite on the NES was when two different sprites using a portion of them final image each overlayed each other, which wasn't frequent. If you don't mind me being honest, for me, games which try to imitate a retro look but don't succeed just look horrible. To each his own, though.

NES pallet, for reference
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ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)
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« Reply #2 on: December 22, 2010, 05:08:44 PM »

what do you mean a rpg that will remind you of zelda? zelda games aren't rpgs
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Pineapple
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« Reply #3 on: December 22, 2010, 05:10:40 PM »

what do you mean a rpg that will remind you of zelda? zelda games aren't rpgs

They're certainly more in the realm of adventure games today, but the NES, SNES, and Four Swords zelda games were a bit more RPG-ish. I could be wrong, but I think the DS ones are pretty RPG-ish, too.
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ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)
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« Reply #4 on: December 22, 2010, 05:15:47 PM »

i don't really think of it that way -- rpg as a genre has clear qualities: a party, classes, gaining levels, stats, equipment which enhances those stats, turn-based combat. none of the zelda games have any of those, except for zelda 2, which didn't have any of those except for experience points / leveling. to me zelda games are much closer to metroidvanias (just with top-down perspective). i don't see anything in common with rpgs at all.
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« Reply #5 on: December 22, 2010, 05:24:24 PM »

Some Metroidvanias are RPGs, too. An RPG by definition is a Role-Playing Game. In many of them, advancement is through new characters in the party or higher stats, but in the Zelda titles it's through the acquisition of new items and equipment. It's hard to argue that Zelda games have always had a big focus on story and, as a result, roleplaying. Zelda 1 went so far as to be the first NES game ever to feature a save system, which is a good indication towards progression being a very important factor.

The reason I think of the 3D Zelda titles as adventure games is because the focus on story is dampened a bit and put into exploration and puzzles.

On topic, I love Zelda 1. It's one of my favorite games of all time. Make your game, keith, just make sure you make it well.
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MaloEspada
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« Reply #6 on: December 22, 2010, 05:53:37 PM »

if you take RPG by its definition, every game where you control anything is a role playing game.

zeldas aren't RPGs.

on-topic: good luck with this project. also i think this thread belongs elsewhere.
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ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)
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« Reply #7 on: December 22, 2010, 06:06:40 PM »

my impression of the 3d games is actually the opposite: i felt the 3d games focused too much on story; every half-second there's a textbox popping up or a fairy or an owl telling you want to do. there were also more extensive towns, just in general a lot more dialogue than in the nes and snes versions.

but i don't really think 'focusing on story' is an aspect of rpgs at all; there are plenty of 'dungeon crawler' rpgs, and roguelikes, which are rpgs but which have no emphasis on story, and plenty of games like metal gear solid which have more emphasis on story than most rpgs do. so i don't really see how story and rpg are linked. if having a strong story is all that's required to be a rpg, then photopia would be a rpg, metal gear solid 4 would be a rpg, wing commander would be a rpg, etc. etc.

basically to me, the word rpg comes from pen and paper role playing games, particularly dungeons and dragons. so a game is a rpg to the extent that it uses mechanics of pen and paper rpgs, including turn-based combat, experience points and leveling, equipment and stats, randomization / dice rolls, creating a party out of different "classes" of character, and all the other stuff you tend to find in typical pen and paper rpgs.

and yeah, this thread should go in devlogs, not projects. projects are just for tigsource group projects, not for individual game projects.
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« Reply #8 on: December 22, 2010, 06:23:12 PM »

Perhaps you're right. If the top-down Zelda games aren't RPGs, though, what are they?
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ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)
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« Reply #9 on: December 22, 2010, 06:29:46 PM »

i like the term zeldalike, or top-down metroidvania (even though the zeldalike genre arrived *before* the metroidvania genre the latter term is more common). i think the two are basically the same genre except for perspective (side-view vs top-down view); basically you do the same things in both: explore a big world, collect items which grant you access to new paths and areas, lots of backtracking, and fight enemies in real-time (not turn-based).

but to me the 2d top-down zelda games are in the same subcategory as crystalis, guardian legend, alundra, the top-down ys games, mystical ninja starring goemon, soul blazer, terranigma, and illusion of gaia -- games like that. the subcategory never got big enough to warrant its own name, so i just call them zeldalike.
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cynicalsandel
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« Reply #10 on: December 22, 2010, 06:31:57 PM »

but to me the 2d top-down zelda games are in the same subcategory as crystalis, guardian legend, alundra, the top-down ys games, mystical ninja starring goemon, soul blazer, terranigma, and illusion of gaia -- games like that.

Those are Action RPGs. The same genre I put Zelda in, at least the top-down ones.
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ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)
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« Reply #11 on: December 22, 2010, 06:33:17 PM »

i've never heard those games called action rpgs before actually -- genre stratification is largely arbitrary of course, and can be done in many ways, but i don't really see what most of those games have in common with rpgs at all
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cynicalsandel
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« Reply #12 on: December 22, 2010, 06:38:37 PM »

I've never seen them classified as anything other than Action RPGs. The main different between Action RPGs and Turn based RPGs is exactly that. Turn Based vs. Real time in Action RPGs. Action RPGs still have the aspects of leveling and such, just not the turns.
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ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)
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« Reply #13 on: December 22, 2010, 06:45:23 PM »

but half of the games i mentioned (including zelda) don't have leveling at all; what do you mean by 'and such' specifically? i.e. what other rpg elements do they have besides leveling (which only half of them have)?
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MaloEspada
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« Reply #14 on: December 22, 2010, 06:46:03 PM »

i'm with rinkuhero. secret of mana is an action rpg, zelda is not. zelda is mostly adventure top-down game.
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cynicalsandel
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« Reply #15 on: December 22, 2010, 06:54:52 PM »

I've never played Alundra, Guardian Legend, or Mystical Ninja Starring Goemon. I only called those Action RPGs because you listed them along with Crystalis and Ys which have exp. points and leveling. It was a bit misguided on my part, and I'm sorry for that. It was a lot easier just to assume than spend time researching it.

Basically, what sets RPG's apart from other genres are the leveling system (with experience points) and I suppose item acquirement. In the case of Turn Based RPGs, the battle system would also be different.

The reason I consider Zelda, or at least early iterations, RPGs is because they do have a leveling system. It isn't exactly clear as day like with experience points, but getting more hearts and new items is essentially a way of leveling up... at least in my eyes.

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ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)
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« Reply #16 on: December 22, 2010, 07:01:07 PM »

if you consider getting more health and more weapons to be the same as leveling, and game that have leveling as rpgs, would you consider any game in which you gain more health and more weapons over time to be rpgs? for instance, in the metal gear solid series, you gain more health and weapons as you go through the game. by that, all metroidvania games would be action-rpgs (metroid, symphony of the night, castlevania 2, etc.) because almost universally in metroidvania games you gain more health and more weapons over time. you gain more health and weapons in ghost and goblins too (the different armors are different amounts of health). in many shmups, you gain more health and weapons (health through things like shields). it seems like an overly broad way to classify something as a rpg, and would mean that about 30% of games or more are rpgs.
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cynicalsandel
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« Reply #17 on: December 22, 2010, 07:06:37 PM »

I wish I was better at explaining my thoughts. I guess Zelda just has some intangible quality to it that makes it feel more like an RPG (at least to me) than the games you listed. I would like to be able to describe it better, but I don't really know how. I guess it is just different in my eyes.

To be honest, I was expecting just to post and return to my lurking. I wasn't prepared for a debate.  Smiley
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Pineapple
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« Reply #18 on: December 22, 2010, 08:03:20 PM »

Pre-research post with still-relevant information:

I think the reason Zelda feels more like an RPG where other games with the same or similar qualities don't is just because of the setting. The clear majority of medieval-themed games are role-playing games, so perhaps that's the reason sandel and I are inclined to classify it as such. Another part of it might be that the point of items isn't entirely to turn Zelda into a metroidvania. To speak of Zelda 1, sure, you've got the key items that are needed to solve a puzzle or traverse an obstacle, but the game is completable without better swords, shields, and heart containers; they're "level ups" awarded to the player for exploration. You could find some excuse to categorize almost anything as an RPG using similar arguments, I suppose, but "zeldalikes" share more significant qualities with RPGs than most others.


----------------------------------------------------

Analytic post:


Personally, I recognize games as falling under one or more of these categories:

Driving - Driving cars or other vehicles, usually racing them, is a major part of gameplay. Examples: Need for Speed, Mario Kart, Burnout, Grand Theft Auto

Sandbox - A game where the player is meant to create his own goals within an environment with a minimal amount or significance of built-in goals, or the built-in goals are a means of achieving more significant player-made goals. Examples: Garry's Mod, Minecraft, Grand Theft Auto

Strategy - With the major subcategories of turn-based and real-time strategy and puzzle games. Strategy games are games in which tactics and planning are a significant part of gameplay. I personally consider stealth games to be a subgenre of strategy games for their tactical nature. Examples: Command & Conquer, Age of Empires, Fire Emblem, Bejeweled, Final Fantasy Tactics

Adventure - To qualify as an adventure game, a large part of gameplay should be finding and exploring large and interesting environments. The key concept is that rather than simply 'make it to the next level so you're closer to the end of the game', the environment has specific defining characteristics, nonlinearity being the one which stands out most. Metroidvanias are adventure games with the defining characteristic of finding specific items which grant abilities to the player to make reaching the next area possible. Examples: Ocarina of Time, Half-Life, Metroid, Castlevania

Action - Action games are won and/or played through directly fighting opponents. Though most games involve fighting, a game should only be considered an action game if it's the absolute primary means of progression. Shoot-em-ups and first/third person shooters are significant subgenres. Examples: Twisted Metal, Half-Life, Call of Duty, Cave Story, DOOM, Metroid, Castlevania, Deus Ex, Mario Kart

Horror - These are games that are meant to be scary or creepy. There's not much to describe for this one. Survival-horror is a major subgenre, action-horror is one common combination of genres. Examples: Resident Evil, Silent Hill

Platformer - A platformer game is one where major progression is made through maneuvering obstacles, most often platforms of some kind. Examples: Sonic Adventure, Mario, Cave Story

Simulation - Simulation games give the player control over a simulated environment. Tycoon games are one subcategory in which the player is allowed to shape the environment with the goal of making money. Sports manager games also fall under this genre. Examples: Sim City, Spore, Farmville

Sports - Sports games is essentially some sort of mutation of a simulation game, but they're generally set apart enough to warrant their own genre. Where the typical racing game is simply classified as a driving game, a NASCAR game would be both a driving and a sports game for that unique characteristic that sets it apart. Examples: Madden 'XX, Tiger Woods Golf, Tony Hawk's Pro Skater

Role-Playing - RPGs are characterized by having progression tied to the earning of more powerful exclusively offensive and defensive capabilities. Though it's not a mark of the genre itself, RPGs tend to be very story-centric, where the player is presented with a role significant to the story, as opposed to a simple 'rescue the princess' plot. Rougelikes should be considered a subgenre of RPGs. Examples: Final Fantasy, Kingdom Hearts, Fallout, Fire Emblem, Deus Ex


There are always games that find holes and create their own genres (Flower being the only one that comes to mind at the moment) but there will always be the odd ones out.

So where does Zelda 1 fall? I'd say it's an Action-Adventure-RPG. Combat with enemies and bosses is frequent and the means of acquiring new items earns its status as an action game. Some of those items (heart containers, weapons, shields) serve the sole purpose of making the player more formidable against his enemies, which makes it an RPG (what's the difference between grinding for stats and grinding for equipment? In many RPGs you do both.) and other items serve the sole purpose of making previously impassible obstacles open up for the player to enter new areas, which is necessary for progression through the game, thus its classification of an adventure game.

So looking back, I think Zelda 1 (and in fact, most "zeldalikes") should be considered to be an adventure game first and an action/RPG second. This also places them close to metroidvanias, most of which should fall under the same genres as Zelda 1 plus Platformers.

Well? It took me an around hour to research and type this post so you'd better appreciate it whether you completely agree with it or not  Roll Eyes
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keithw84
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« Reply #19 on: December 22, 2010, 09:32:53 PM »

Might I suggest using an NES pallet and restricting your sprites and tiles to 4 colors each (including transparency)? The only exception to the 4 colors/sprite on the NES was when two different sprites using a portion of them final image each overlayed each other, which wasn't frequent. If you don't mind me being honest, for me, games which try to imitate a retro look but don't succeed just look horrible. To each his own, though.

NES pallet, for reference

thanks for the advice! i'll definitely try and work on that :D
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