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TIGSource ForumsCommunityTownhallForum IssuesArchived subforums (read only)CreativeEverybody's Free to Develop Roguelikes!
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Kornel Kisielewicz
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« on: April 04, 2007, 04:33:32 PM »

Word of introduction - I originaly wrote and posted this on rec.games.roguelike.development (abbr RGRD) on June 10th 2004. I recently found it on my harddrive and I was surprised how the article is still valid after what I learned. As a memorial, I reposted it on the Chaosforge forum, then Derek asked me to repost it here.

I guess most of it still holds if you'd substiture "RGRD" for "TIGSource Forums" and "develop roguelikes" for "develop indie-games" Smiley.



Based on Mary Schmich's "Sunscreen" article, and a remake by Darrell Loudermilk on alt.books.kurt-vonnegut. With a dedication to all newbie roguelike developers - have fun and don't worry! Smiley



Ladies and gentlemen of the RGRD,
Develop roguelikes.

If I could give you just one tip for the future, developing roguelikes would be it. Long term benefits of developing roguelikes have been proved by ADoM, Angband, and Nethack developers, all more I can tell you is my own meandering experience. I will dispense this advice now...

Enjoy the power and beauty of your roguelike. Oh, never mind. You will not understand the power and beauty of your roguelike until you abandon it. But trust me, in 20 years, you'll look back at it's sources and recall in a way you can't grasp now how much possibility lay before you and how fabulous it really was. Your code is not as ugly as you imagine.

Don't worry about optimizations. Or worry, but know that worrying about optimizations is as effective as trying to solve an algebra equation by chewing bubble gum. The real troubles in your code are are apt to be things that never popped up in your worried mind, the kind that have nothing to do with the source code.

Do one thing with your project every day that scares you:

Test it.

Don't be reckless with other people's roguelikes. Don't put up with people who are reckless with yours.

Lurk.

Don't waste your time on jealousy. Sometimes you're ahead, sometimes you're behind. The race is long and, in the end, it's only with yourself.

Remember RFE's you receive. Forget the flames. If you succeed in doing this, tell me how.

Keep your old rewrites. Throw away really old bug-reports.

Play.

Don't feel guilty if you don't know what you want to implement in your roguelike. The most interesting roguelike designers I know didn't know at Alpha-stage what they wanted to have in their game. Some of the most interesting veterans I know still don't.

Get plenty of feedback. Be kind to your beta-testers. You'll miss them when they're gone.

Maybe you'll finish your roguelike, maybe you won't. Maybe you'll have fanpages, maybe you won't. Maybe you'll lose the whole source code to a hard drive failure, or maybe you'll get a contract from Blizzard on your 10th wedding anniversary. Whatever you do, don't congratulate yourself too much, or berate yourself either. Your choices are half chance. So are everybody else's.

Enjoy the beauty of ASCII. Use it every way you can. Don't be afraid of it or of what other people think of it. It's the greatest instrument you'll ever work with.

Play your roguelike, even if you have nowhere to do it but at work, or on your university.

Test and brainstorm on other peoples roguelikes even if you don't plan too play them.

Do not browse other peoples sources, it will only make you feel that yours is ugly.

Get to know the roguelike genre, games and websites. You never know when they'll be gone for good. Be nice to fellow roguelike-developers. They're your best link to your hobby and the people most likely to prove your sanity when you release an ASCII game to a GeForce dominated world.

Understand that newbies come and go, and that it's the precious few veterans who hold on. Get to know the long-time-posters. You'll miss them when they get full-time jobs and won't have time to criticize your new roguelike project.

Browse NetHack's source once, but stop before it makes you hard. Browse JADE's JavaDoc once, but stop before it makes you soft. Study.

Accept certain inalienable truths. Newbies will vapor-post, die-hard roguelikers will flame. You, too, will get old. And, when you do, you'll fantasize that, when you were young, RGRD was made up exclusively of bright, professional roguelike-developers, the vapor-ware count was low, and everyone was releasing interesting playable beta versions.

Create a interesting playable beta version.

Don't expect anyone to support you. Maybe you'll have a dedicated artists group. Maybe you'll have a brilliant group of testers/brainstormers. But you never know when either of them might get a commercial full-time job, and loose interest in your charitable self-production.

Don't mess too much with your code or by the time you release it, it will look like Crawls.

Be careful whose advice you buy, but be patient with those who supply it. Advice is a form of nostalgia. Dispensing it is a way of fishing the past from the disposal, wiping it off, painting over the ugly parts and recycling it for more than it's worth.

But trust me on roguelike development.
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« Reply #1 on: April 04, 2007, 06:04:44 PM »

I wore sunscreen once, but it turned out I was allergic. Sad

Afterward, I realized it wasn't sunscreen I was rubbing into my skin but a rabid badger.

Roguelike development is pretty awesome. I love how they have such complexity without sacrificing visual fidelity.
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Alex May
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« Reply #2 on: April 05, 2007, 01:00:42 AM »

 Kiss

1. You need to get William Shatner to read that out.
2. I think much of this applies to wider indie game development. Maybe not the ASCII stuff. Well, maybe the ASCII stuff as well Smiley
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« Reply #3 on: May 27, 2009, 07:02:02 AM »

Very funny and as you mentioned most of it is very appropriate to all indie game development.  Smiley
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« Reply #4 on: May 27, 2009, 07:42:33 AM »

everybody's freeeeeeeeeeee

but who plays roguelikes in 2009 that are not dwarf fortress
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« Reply #5 on: May 27, 2009, 08:14:30 AM »

I do.
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« Reply #6 on: May 27, 2009, 08:44:35 AM »

but who plays roguelikes in 2009 that are not dwarf fortress

I still play Nethack. Tongue

But yes, roguelikes are always good. I often wish there were more that actually stood out, though. I like POWDER because it has "flavor".
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« Reply #7 on: May 27, 2009, 10:34:46 AM »

Dude, if you don't play roguelikes you miss out on feats like this:

http://cymonsgames.retroremakes.com/tomb-of-the-aztec/

Seriously, play that game. It's incredible.
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« Reply #8 on: May 27, 2009, 12:32:18 PM »

What I love about roguelikes is the way the kind of stripped back aesthetic they have (v. basic graphics, turn based), and the typically long development time, gives the developers so much scope to stretch their legs, to completely fill their game with stuff.  Whether the average player will see it all or not...

With my own (unreleased, but hopefully not for long) roguelike, I've had a great time just adding things to it.  Unlike the other games I've made, I don't feel any pressure to create a finished version, which seems to make the process a lot more enjoyable.  I'll just dip in for a day or two, add a monster type, a couple of new items, and then move onto something else.  I can see myself working on it on and off for the rest of my life, turning it into a massive, stream-of-consciousness meander of a game.  I've no idea if anyone else will want to play it, but (as far as I'm concerned) that's not really the point.
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« Reply #9 on: May 30, 2009, 09:46:06 AM »

Interestingly enough, I've been researching roguelikes this week,  toying with an idea of graphical roguelike (I know, not a true roguelike, but the underlying concept - bare bones - is the same). What do ya know, I stumbled into this very thread! I need to check this part of the forum more often...

Also, since Dwarf Fortress already has been mentioned, may I divert attention to Elona, which is basically a roguelike with sprites tacked on.

Roguelike is the concept, not just ASCII hack'n'slash.
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« Reply #10 on: May 30, 2009, 07:18:34 PM »

I wouldn't say "bare bones" is a fundamental concept of roguelikes. There are so many other defining characteristics that adding graphics doesn't in any way ruin it as long as you preserve other aspects.
After all, it's roguelike, not rogueclone.
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« Reply #11 on: May 30, 2009, 07:29:01 PM »

but who plays roguelikes in 2009 that are not dwarf fortress

Really?

Dwarf Fortress
Stone Soup
ADoM
MagesGuild
Lost Legends
Triangle Wizard
Spelunky

On, and on.
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Loren Schmidt
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« Reply #12 on: June 02, 2009, 07:33:57 PM »

Thanks for posting this here, Kornel.

As someone who loves roguelikes (and hopes one day to make one) I have all kinds of appreciation for the people who develop them. This was a fun read.
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« Reply #13 on: June 03, 2009, 10:13:22 AM »

Although some might scoff at such a change to the core Roguelike mechanic, the game is all the better for it, ... Chocobo is free to run around the town of Lostime. ... Season's greetings ยท Toro comes to Everybody's Golf ...
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« Reply #14 on: June 03, 2009, 11:00:48 PM »

I think the spam bot is broken.
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« Reply #15 on: June 04, 2009, 08:12:54 PM »

but who plays roguelikes in 2009 that are not dwarf fortress

Really?

Dwarf Fortress
Stone Soup
ADoM
MagesGuild
Lost Legends
Triangle Wizard
Spelunky

On, and on.
Someone's troll detector is broken.
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Loren Schmidt
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« Reply #16 on: June 06, 2009, 01:07:48 PM »

Addendum:
I neglected to mention earlier how much I've enjoyed the DOOM Roguelike. I'm not a very hardcore player, but I really appreciate its design. No food, low level enemies with some lasting relevance as the player levels, engaging tactical movement... The game is much better for having been designed sensitively from the ground up instead of blindly borrowing from other roguelikes. Cheers!
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« Reply #17 on: June 07, 2009, 01:48:43 PM »

I still play stone soup crawl occasionally, and the developers are still working quite hard on that game.
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