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[dayflcl]

 I'm sure this topic has been posted before but I never got the answer I was looking for. I also know that a subject like this is a matter of opition but Why is it that writing in video games suck ?!


I mean really think about it?

What games (IYO) have great dialogue? ( name the game and why )

What way can we fix this problem with out 100000000 cut scenes ?


I did a blog to share my views but I was wondering if anyone could add to what I've come up with? I even used Quentin Tarantino and  Elmore Leonard as an example, Elmore Leonard has this great list of rules that I believe can be applied to games.


BTW check out the blog, if you like and let me know what you think. http://truelove-falseidols.tumblr.com/post/2442593093 

Day

 

[mirosurabu]

It's an old topic, but I have nothing against bringing it up again. (:

Now that you said that writing in most games is bad, can you name any games that have really bad writing? Just so that we can get a feel of what you really don't like about writing in games.

I see that you don't like cutscenes, though that doesn't tell much about what you don't like about writing.

You listed Uncharted and Heavy Rain as examples of good writing, and to be honest, I don't really find their writing to be good, for various reasons. Not only that, but both have cutscenes, especially Uncharted 2.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

game writing tends to be bad because they use professional programmers, people who were trained in programming, as writers, instead of using professional writers, people who were trained in writing, as writers. or often they use 'game designers' who have basically no training at all in anything, as writers, instead of using people trained as writers as writers. so basically if you want writing to improve, don't use programmers or game designers as the writer, use a writer as the writer.

it really is essentially that simple: we're in a state now in the industry where, in games, the programming is done by people who are professional programmers, the art is done by people who are professional artists, the music is done by people who are professional musicians, but the writing is done by people who are not professional writers, because of the mistaken belief that anyone can write and they don't need professionals.

[bento_smile]

I'm unsure Leonard's list of rules applies to games at all, as most of them seem to be a rant on things he doesn't like in prose. There's not much which is useful to people who are pretty much just writing dialogue, I think. (With the exception of 'if it sounds like writing, rewrite it'.) 

[Captain_404]

[etc] don't use programmers or game designers as the writer, use a writer as the writer [etc]

As a counter-example, Mirror's Edge did exactly this and I know many people remember its story as being particularly insipid. The sorts of tricks that work well in traditional writing do not necessarily translate well to games particular brand of interactivity. Just as film has its own visual language which doesn't translate well into games, games have a language of interaction a writer may be even less prepared to deal with than a programmer.

--

A big reason for poor game writing, I think, is that much of it is written as explanation of the game's mechanics or a level's goal. Not a great deal of it occurs to put the player in a certain emotional state, but to push the plot along toward more gunshots and explosions.

For example, if a game designer decides to have the characters explain the controls to the player you will end up with lines such as, "To barrel role press Z or R twice!" and there is literally no way to not make that sound stupid. Once you have text like this anywhere in the game, you're either setting a tone with it or it is disrupting the tone that's been set (even when not administered by any in game character). This comes in other forms too, such as when every NPC you meet in a village in blathering inexplicably to you about the Canyon of Light or somesuch.


Games are too focused on explaining things to the player, pointing the player toward the game. Language should be used in the same way as art and sound direction, as a vehicle for conveying emotion. Not something that points the player toward the game, but something that points the game toward the player.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

you're going to have examples like that because not all professional writers are very good at writing, just as not all professional artists are very good at art. but the average value will increase.

there are things which don't translate, but a good writer will recognize that and adapt, just as writers don't write the same for plays as they do for novels, or for novels as they do for movies.

[mirosurabu]

In most cases, game design and writing are closely related, so the person who's doing writing should also tackle design. Because of that, I'm not really keen on the idea of "hiring writer to do writing for your game". I'd much prefer to learn from writers (or from books) and then apply that knowledge myself.

Consider this:

If I, as a designer, want an NPC that guides the player and teaches him how to play the game, I can hire the best writer in the world and still end up with bad writing. For example, there are games that have a bit more seamless and believable guiding (e.g. first Phoenix Wright), but even then, these parts feel redundant and silly at times.

[Anthony Hart-Jones]

According to Richard Garriott (and I agree), the reason videogame writing is bad is because the wrong writers do it.  Designers are co-opted into writing, publishers grab writers from other media who think that writing a game is similar to writing for TV or film, or (most often) producers just don't prioritise writing.

On the other hand, what is good writing in one place might be bad in another.  I loved the way Marc Laidlaw told the story in the Half-Life games, but that technique would probably have ruined Mirror's Edge.  On the other hand, (Bioware's) Neverwinter Nights' storytelling was great for a D&D RPG, but would have looked out of place in Doom or Serious Sam.

It is an old argument, but it is the reason I became a narrative designer.  It is the reason I lecture games design students on why it is important to respect the story.  Game stories are generally thought to suck, so maybe they do.  There are those in the industry working to change things, but it is not easy.  For every Tom Jubert and Stephen Dinehart working in AAA, (even if Stephen seems to be turning indie) you have as many or more like Corvus Elrod or Chris Crawford who reject the big-budget mindset.  Indie is where the change will likely start.  (Look up Chris Crawford's notorious 'Dragon Speech' if you have the chance)

So let's address your question; "why is it that writing in video games suck?"  Maybe you need to ask "what can I do to make videogames suck less?"

P.S. Say what you like, but I liked the way Mirror's Edge told its story.  It might not have been pure gold from start to finish, but it was more adventurous than I would normally credit EA with.  Besides, Rhianna Pratchett is one of the good guys in this battle...

[Captain_404]

P.S. Say what you like, but I liked the way Mirror's Edge told its story.  It might not have been pure gold from start to finish, but it was more adventurous than I would normally credit EA with.  Besides, Rhianna Pratchett is one of the good guys in this battle...

I honestly feel bad for using it as an example. As an addendum, I haven't played the game myself. The post was purely hearsay.

[Anthony Hart-Jones]

I honestly feel bad for using it as an example. As an addendum, I haven't played the game myself. The post was purely hearsay.

Mirror's Edge was not the game people expected, which meant that a lot of people were already prejudiced when it came out.  It was essentially a parkour-simulator, which really turned off a lot of FPS players.  Personally, I preferred the idea of a game where combat is a less attractive option and so the UI could be dropped.

Actually, I still think the Overlord games are Rhianna's greatest work, but that might just be me.  Growing up with a father like hers though, I suppose it was inevitable that she would be good at comedy.

Addendum:
My wife points out that voice-acting often sucks too.  Even the best dialogue will sound bad if the actor is not delivering it with conviction. 

[SundownKid]

I think that saying video game writing sucks outright is grossly oversimplifying the situation. Since writing in video games is a lot more fragmented than a book, or even a screenplay, due to the numerous cutscenes interspersed with gameplay, it's harder to have a detailed, continuous narrative. Since people want to play a game rather than watch a cutscene, *bam*, all the extraneous stuff is gone because it's taking up valuable "exploring" time. Getting more skilled writers won't solve the problem - if the writer isn't in sync with everyone else, it will still end up with very nice, but fragmented pieces of story rather than having the gameplay and story meld together. The answer is to make a more cohesive experience.

This is probably why people have started to like "situational dialogue", as you described in the blog, where characters discuss things and talk to each other even when a cutscene is not taking place - for example, HL2 and L4D. This is harder (but still possible) in 2D games due to its potential for distraction, so the narrative suffers. When there isn't any gameplay going on, it's easier to relay information about the story, meaning it's a balancing act. You can claim that this is because games are a visual medium and they shouldn't have lots of writing, but I find it hard to believe that the future of games will be entirely visual.

The plot of Mirror's Edge wasn't terri-bad, though I thought it was a simplistic in the manner of a Hollywood movie with no real depth. This was because of the short length combined with the fragmentation of the exposition, with long periods of simply running around doing parkour. The story was crammed in there rather than having the game designed around it. As a side-note, a certain secret project's name walks right into this territory...

[Antiserum]

You can claim that this is because games are a visual medium and they shouldn't have lots of writing, but I find it hard to believe that the future of games will be entirely visual.

I think games are already far from being just a visual medium. They're the most mixed medium covering art, writing, music, acting, film... and a unique interactivity.

I don't know about most games, as I tend to focus on just few that catch my fancy and disregard the rest but there is usually great writing in RPG and adventure games like: Fallout, Planescape Torment, Grim Fandango, Broken Sword... And though I don't care for Blizzard much any more, I always felt drawn by Diablo and Warcraft's storytelling.

I didn't play Mirror's Edge through because of it's overly-repetitive-for-my-taste learning curve so I can't judge on it's writing, but that game invoked emotions really well through gameplay and dialogue judging from the few hours I put in it.

[dayflcl]

thx Miroslav Malesevic....  Dont get me wrong its not that i dont like cutscenes, I just dont like when companies or devs over use them to tell the story. I think we need to learn when to use cutscenes. as for games with bad writing: dmc (1 & 2) shadow complex
and ff13.

what I'm really wondering is how we can fix this problem if you dont have a big budget for your game. I would love to have a Tarantino like  dialogue without having to many cutscenes and text bubbles

[dayflcl]

game writing tends to be bad because they use professional programmers, people who were trained in programming, as writers, instead of using professional writers, people who were trained in writing, as writers. or often they use 'game designers' who have basically no training at all in anything, as writers, instead of using people trained as writers as writers. so basically if you want writing to improve, don't use programmers or game designers as the writer, use a writer as the writer.

it really is essentially that simple: we're in a state now in the industry where, in games, the programming is done by people who are professional programmers, the art is done by people who are professional artists, the music is done by people who are professional musicians, but the writing is done by people who are not professional writers, because of the mistaken belief that anyone can write and they don't need professionals.

very true 

[Anthony Hart-Jones]

I think the whole 'programmers writing for games' thing died out in the 80s, or early-90s at the latest.  Indies might still do it, but the fact is that the AAA studios have been hiring in writers for a long time. 

My experience has been that they hire in writers from TV and then wonder why the plot looks static and two-dimensional.  Interactive narrative is a separate skill from TV, as I said earlier.  It is another language entirely, one of interconnected narremes and exponential possibilities, and not simple linear exposition.

You would not expect a writer from LOST or Friends to be able to write an opera in Italian, but people expect them to be able to write branching narrative in the language of videogames for some reason.  Even Bioware have issues with that, hiring for writing style more than interactivity, but they are good at retraining their writers once they get them.

[TheSpaceMan]

I know that some studios hire actuall Authors rather then TV writers. This is still a problem but atleast the writing is very descriptive.

The best dialog from a game according to me was the legacy of kain/soul reaver series.
But then again it relied heavly on cutscenes and non interactive dialoges.

The dialogs in mass effect 2 work quite well (DON'T BURN ME!!!) but then again it's bioware.

Maybe the industry at large should look more towards table top RPG campaign writers, (preferable not dungeons and dragons) and look at campaigns and missions written for story, and skillbased roleplaying rather then just slash everything up.

And yes, with dialog it's best to have someone who knows how to write. At the moment I am stuck on my own with level design, coding, boss design and dialogs. Guess I just have to to the best possible with what I got.

[floatstarpx]

I think the whole 'programmers writing for games' thing died out in the 80s, or early-90s at the latest.  Indies might still do it, but the fact is that the AAA studios have been hiring in writers for a long time. 

Completely true.

In indie gaming (or smaller teams), everyone has to have a wider skillset, in general..and a higher adaptability to learning new skills... we started writing story/dialogue/etc.. for EGV1, having pretty much no experience of doing this - and I'm sure in some areas of the game, we could've done it better with more practice...but we learnt a lot from it - and I guess moving on to the next game, we'll take that experience with us!

I don't believe programming and writing are as mutually exclusive as people might suggest, although that may come from the general stereotype of a "programmer"..

My experience has been that they hire in writers from TV and then wonder why the plot looks static and two-dimensional.  Interactive narrative is a separate skill from TV, as I said earlier.  It is another language entirely, one of interconnected narremes and exponential possibilities, and not simple linear exposition.

You would not expect a writer from LOST or Friends to be able to write an opera in Italian, but people expect them to be able to write branching narrative in the language of videogames for some reason.  Even Bioware have issues with that, hiring for writing style more than interactivity, but they are good at retraining their writers once they get them.

This is it exactly... and there are so many other problems which come up in an interactive game... what if the player just wanders off to try to do something else? What if the player doesn't do things in quite the same order? What if the player forgets what they're doing?
Because it's down to the player to progress the game (in the majority of areas), the pacing is no longer entirely under the writer's control.. etc..etc..
- the worst problem (I've found) is - what if the player does the thing they're supposed to do, but before they know they're supposed to do it? Finding ways around this can be tough!
So, adapting to those differences from non-interactive fiction is the challenge, really.

- plus the fact it has to go hand-in-hand with the gameplay elements, level design, game design, etc..etc..

[Anthony Hart-Jones]

Maybe the industry at large should look more towards table top RPG campaign writers, (preferable not dungeons and dragons) and look at campaigns and missions written for story, and skillbased roleplaying rather then just slash everything up.

I don't know that D&D is a bad place to look.  Chris Avellone got his break as a designer on D&D and then moved into games, giving us Planescape: Torment and Icewind Dale.  Okay, Obsidian may have given us NWN2 and KotOR2 after Black Isle disappeared, which I still think are good games only let down by the fact that they are sequels to two amazing games, but I think Fallout: New Vegas more than makes up for it.

I am curious to see what comes out of 38 Studios now you mention tabletop RPGs.  They seem to have grabbed a whole load of creative talent with tabletop RPG links and built around them, rather than building around the Engine.

[Antiserum]

D&D is perfectly OK, it's just that your average D&D player/DM is the kick-in-the-door superhero stereotype, unlike with other pen & paper systems that focus more on the role playing instead of roll playing (Fudge anyone?)
D&D basically pushes you into the mentioned mindset by forcing you to work with too many rules, in effect it's rather a strategy oriented game then roleplaying oriented, but wonders can be done with the d20 system...

[Mipe]

What? I thought D&D was about minmaxing the hell out of your character.