next »

[TheSpaceMan]

D&D is perfectly OK, it's just that your average D&D player/DM is the kick-in-the-door superhero stereotype, unlike with other pen & paper systems that focus more on the role playing instead of roll playing (Fudge anyone?)
D&D basically pushes you into the mentioned mindset by forcing you to work with too many rules, in effect it's rather a strategy oriented game then roleplaying oriented, but wonders can be done with the d20 system...

Yes I agree. Then again, wonders can be done without any system at all. D20 is more of a fantasy adventure game rather then a RPG. There is allways a balance between how much game, how much roll and how much realism you want in a game.

I have allways been a bit of a complex rule guy, The current system I am playing have no limits to magic but it has a more complex rule system about the cost and difficulty. Some player whine that "d20 is better" because all the spells are written down and you just need to make one or rolls to see if you hit you target.

But we shouldn't talk about that now. My point was, the more skills you have in a tabletop rpg and the more they are in focus, the more focused the campaign/storywriter have to be. My experience playing (not leading) Dungeons and Dragons is essentialy the
10 Kill enemies
20 Kill more Enemies
30 Kill Boss
40 Level up. Goto 10

Like some one said somewhere I rather hear "Oh fuck a troll!!!" then "Cool more loot and XP!"

[TheSpaceMan]

What? I thought D&D was about minmaxing the hell out of your character. 

Yes, people very often min/max their characters, there is no real big downside to a int/wiz 4 warrior with str/con 20 .

[Anthony Hart-Jones]

D&D is perfectly OK, it's just that your average D&D player/DM is the kick-in-the-door superhero stereotype, unlike with other pen & paper systems that focus more on the role playing instead of roll playing (Fudge anyone?)
D&D basically pushes you into the mentioned mindset by forcing you to work with too many rules, in effect it's rather a strategy oriented game then roleplaying oriented, but wonders can be done with the d20 system...

Unless you are playing Planescape, where raw combat ability just leads to overconfidence and death.  Level 30 and a vorpal sword are no defence when the Lady of Pain is angry with you...

I do see your point regarding D&D, but I have seen min-maxing in GURPS and even Amber Diceless.  D&D in and of itself does not recommend a writer, but it is a good place to learn some of the skills they need.

[Antiserum]

I always approached D&D's d20 system very casually, taking it more as guidelines than fixed rules, the rules are awesome for combat, but truly they cripple storytelling a lot (like players getting stumped when instead of acting out a bluff they just roll it...)
But rules are just a piece of the game. You could play the same fighter character of wis/int=4 in the same setting with two various game masters; in one there would be no downsides, in other you might accomplish nothing as the GM chooses to focus more on the dialogue finesse.
I've seen many dungeon masters completely disregarding d20's skill system and accepting only well acted or at least thoughtfully described actions... naturally that's not for everyone, so there's as many styles of playing D&D as there are different players.
For improving writing purpose - looking at D&D (3.5E, as that's the one I'm familiar with the most) glancing at DM's guide II offers good insight into psychology of various types of players and how to approach them.

There's plenty of sources online which focus on P&P character/quest building approach that I bet would prove very useful to approaching same things in video games. They might not improve one's exact writing skills, but might really make the creative juices flow in the right direction if you care to sift through the information.
Here are my few favorite sources of inspiration for all things:
http://www.youmeetinatavern.com/
http://arsludi.lamemage.com/
http://www.gnomestew.com/
For all non P&P-players, just replace every DM/GM with "game developer" and every PC with "player"

Also for the "don't hire programmers to write" statement, while I mostly agree with it, I would go with: "Don't hire people who watch plenty of movies to write, hire people who read plenty of books"

[TheSpaceMan]

[...]
Also for the "don't hire programmers to write" statement, while I mostly agree with it, I would go with: "Don't hire people who watch plenty of movies to write, hire people who read plenty of books"

But I do find this a bit... almost said Racist, but thats not the word.

I am going to go a bit of topic now.
I would in no way automaticly assume that a Gui designer of artist could describe something better in words then a programmer either. Could we for the sake of it all use the term "Non-Writter" then the word "Programmer", I have heard plenty of comments about "Who would ever want to hear a story about if and his buddy else?" to be feed up with the assumtion that Programmers can do nothing but code. We DO have vision and creative streaks as well, hell I know lots of artist who can't even start do draw something if no one tells them what they need.

Back to the topic, when poor on choices, test your team. Some diffrent tests.

Test 1: Get "Once upon a time" the card game, play a few rounds and see who makes the story work.

Test 2: Force each player to be a dungeon master in a RPG. Evaulate the story being played.

Test 3: Based on Test 2. Make each player create characters, see who comes up with a unique character that is not a straight copy from a book or movie. (I have had my share of Cain, blood rain, alucard when trying to play vampire the masquerade)

Test 4: Give everyone in the team four words. Something large, Dragon/Spaceship/Planet, a smell, metal/sulfur/food a specific place a street/bar/cell and a color, red, orange, blue, green. Give them time to figure out and describe it all in a intresting setting.

Resutl: You know who will be loaded with the tast to write stuff, and who will help out when necessary.

[Antiserum]

[...]
Also for the "don't hire programmers to write" statement, while I mostly agree with it, I would go with: "Don't hire people who watch plenty of movies to write, hire people who read plenty of books"

But I do find this a bit... almost said Racist, but thats not the word.

Haha, I didn't mean it in any offensive way, but from my generalized experience with people; movies create a fast paced mindset where details are amiss or more often missing. From my point of view this has no place in writing for video games, as video games tend to be slower (usually no fixed time constraints as is usual with movies).
Movies often skip details, dumb down characters, overly simplify things and leave plot holes, IMHO just taking a look at most movies that are adaptations of books proves this.
Not saying that people who don't read books but watch movies instead will always make bad writers, just that going with people who enjoy reading is a safer bet, because written word usually produces a fertile mindset for growing writing skills .
Movies unlike writing rely on direct visual and auditory cues, and I think would be a better tool to learn camera work, scene design, movement, character expressions etc...

[s0]

Haha, I didn't mean it in any offensive way, but from my generalized experience with people; movies create a fast paced mindset where details are amiss or more often missing. From my point of view this has no place in writing for video games, as video games tend to be slower (usually no fixed time constraints as is usual with movies).

This is precisely why I hate the recent "videogames have to be interactive movies" trend. I mean, what kinda bullshit line of thinking is this anyway? "Games are a visual medium, just like movies, therefore they're the same".

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

television and movie screenplay writers tend to be a bit less skilled than novel writers in my experience (if only because they have a shorter tradition and the standards are lower), so i'd agree with going after the latter; a game is usually better off with an established novelist as a writer than an established television or movie writer as a writer. but either would generally be an improvement over someone who is not a writer, or someone whose writing experience amounts to doing a few NaNoWriMos.

[s0]

Or someone whose "writing" experience amounts to having watched Rambo and Terminator as a kid.

[mirosurabu]

thx Miroslav Malesevic....  Dont get me wrong its not that i dont like cutscenes, I just dont like when companies or devs over use them to tell the story. I think we need to learn when to use cutscenes. as for games with bad writing: dmc (1 & 2) shadow complex
and ff13.

what I'm really wondering is how we can fix this problem if you dont have a big budget for your game. I would love to have a Tarantino like  dialogue without having to many cutscenes and text bubbles

I don't like cutscenes either. My point was that cutscenes don't make writing bad, they make game look bad. (:

[Antiserum]

I don't like cutscenes either. My point was that cutscenes don't make writing bad, they make game look bad. (:

I disagree, while maybe not all games can utilize cut scenes well, some games would be nothing without them. I'll take Zelda OOT as one great example of a good game where cut scenes give life to the story and boost immersion.
Also (haven't played this but watched a little), mass effect seems to have some nice, interactive even cut scenes.

[PsySal]

This is really a great topic even thought it's "been done to death."

Nobody in the thread has yet pointed out "Less Talk, More Rock."

My goal in creating games is to tell stories. There are other types of games that rely on skill and others that rely on puzzle-solving, but what's interesting to me is putting the player inside a story. This to me is really what "RPG" stands for.

That said, what I've found is that a) cutscenes are really useful, but are better if used sparingly and b) exposition should be kept to a minimum.

Let the player do their own exposition as much as possible through exploring the world. A great example of this is 2300 AD in Chrono Trigger. When you arrive you do not know where you are going to be and it's a bit of an icy blast when you find out. As far as I recall there are no lengthy cutscenes when you arrive, it's really left for you to find out. Spelling it out would have really been counter-productive.

On the other hand, more "literary" writing is completely suited to fleshing out back-story. Just today I am writing "hint manuals" which are basically books that outline the finer points of gunplay and strategy in The Real Texas. I would like to have them in there to give the curious player some amusement and also perhaps an "ah-hah" moment, or just to reinforce what they have already learned. But teaching these details through tutorials is rather painful, particularly if you are playing through again.

Anyhow what I'm saying is I agree that story and game design have to be completely intertwined. It also helps to have a few simple ideas communicated through the environment rather than a complicated set-up that the player has to understand, through that might just be my preference.

[TheSpaceMan]

One problem is that I know some gamers, they don't want to think, they don't want to explore, they want the clear path, no options, no sidetracks, no difficulty, they don't want games, they want a movie. And most of these people have confessed when I ask, that they could just as well watch a complete walktrough on internet.

For these people the game is more of an excuse to have people over to play...

[Antiserum]

That's alright, no?
I mean; video games have variety of all sorts, and there's something for everyone ranging from the hardcore role player to the casual wii sports player.
I wouldn't view that as a problem, rather a possible route you can take when making a game, it's the same as how some people don't like horror movies and would rather watch comedies...
As a developer you pick a crowd you're aiming at and go with it.

This is really a great topic even thought it's "been done to death."

Nobody in the thread has yet pointed out "Less Talk, More Rock."

That article is awesome, thanks for this gem!

[Craig Stern]

This is really a great topic even thought it's "been done to death."

Nobody in the thread has yet pointed out "Less Talk, More Rock."

That article is awesome poorly-reasoned garbage, thanks for this gem!

Fixed.

[PsySal]

@Craig I am genuinely interested in why you think Less Talk, More Rock is poorly-reasoned gar...

Oh wait that is what the link is. =)

Edit: Well, I agree with you and the "Less Talk, More Rock" actually. I guess what I took out of the superbrothers argument was basically that it pays to approach writing for games with an eye for parsimony. Like many arguments, it falls if taken to the extreme (and perhaps they do take it a bit too far.)

I do think lengthy (written) exposition can sometimes hurt a game, when other tools are available. I also agree with you that words are a powerful tool.

Oft-quoted advice to starting authors: Don't tell, show!

Advice I read from another author(*) on his blog: That's baloney! Telling is a powerful tool!

(*) I think it was Orson Scott Card.

[PsySal]

One problem is that I know some gamers, they don't want to think, they don't want to explore, they want the clear path, no options, no sidetracks, no difficulty, they don't want games, they want a movie. And most of these people have confessed when I ask, that they could just as well watch a complete walktrough on internet.

For these people the game is more of an excuse to have people over to play...

That is OK, however. We don't have to please everybody, that's what Black Ops and FF13 are for. =)

[Antiserum]

@Craig Stern
Hmmm, I focused more on the first part of the article where its talking about the creative process approach.
While over analyzing an idea and removing stumbling stones before they appear is a nice secure approach, it doesn't really encourage many "happy accidents" or experiments... I'm all for happy accidents and experiments.
...

[Captain_404]

I'm in agreement that the superbrothers talk is a pretty flawed approach. I could delve a little deeper into it, but I feel your blog post covers the most important stuff pretty well, Craig.

I suppose you could take away from it the lesson that one should only use the necessary words, but it reads to me more like a manifesto against all text. On that note, good writing is restricted to only the necessary words to begin with. Even novels should use not a word more than they absolutely must.

EDIT: That's not to say their approach to the creative process isn't worth exploring; for me though, that part was divorced from the portion that dealt with writing in games.

[Craig Stern]

My personal feeling is that everything has its place. Visuals are an excellent tool for many things; text is excellent for other things; and some things are best handled via the game's mechanics themselves. I've grown tired of indies running around, pronouncing various modes of expression in games "bad" simply because they feel more comfortable with one mode of expression over the others.