Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length

 
Advanced search

1411283 Posts in 69325 Topics- by 58380 Members - Latest Member: bob1029

March 29, 2024, 12:49:21 AM

Need hosting? Check out Digital Ocean
(more details in this thread)
TIGSource ForumsCommunityTownhallForum IssuesArchived subforums (read only)CreativeWritingWhy is it that writing in video games suck ??!
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4
Print
Author Topic: Why is it that writing in video games suck ??!  (Read 17551 times)
Seth
Guest
« Reply #40 on: January 04, 2011, 05:20:03 PM »

I feel like most of the bad stories in games results because the story takes a seat behind gameplay most of the time.  I mean that when designing a game,  there seems to be a thought process like, "okay, so we need a fire level, an ice level, then a wind level" which perhaps makes interesting settings to explore the different game mechanics, but is kind of arbitrary story-wise.  So then the writers have to bend the story around so it makes at least a little sense that the main character is going to so many different areas.  I think if ever see the story lead lead the gameplay in a game instead of vice versa, we will start to see good game stories (perhaps at the expense of the gameplay).
Logged
PsySal
Level 8
***


Yaay!


View Profile WWW
« Reply #41 on: January 04, 2011, 08:16:34 PM »

I've grown tired of indies running around, pronouncing various modes of expression in games "bad" simply because they feel more comfortable with one mode of expression over the others.

I am afraid I really have to agree with you here!!

In one last word of defence of the superbrothers, it *WAS* a manifesto, and manifestos usually do lean towards extremism.

NOW as a creative offering, here is some bad writing I did for my game today. Actually, not just today but actually between my last comment and this one.

It's maybe a tiny spoiler, but not really (you'll see):

Secret Items of Legendary Heroes of Ages Past
Logged
kaputtnik
Level 0
**


Roll over, Stravinsky!


View Profile WWW
« Reply #42 on: January 05, 2011, 05:40:50 AM »

I've now read through this entire thread and am pretty sure that writing and game design simply can not be separated. Ideally, if they are capable, I guess the game design team should do the writing as an integral part of the design process, even if it might not come out how the intend it to be, stylistically or in terms of polish and density.

If writing only refers to "the amount of text that can be read within the game", you might as well hire some aspiring novellist, but if gameplay and narrative are meant to be two intertwined elements of a game, this won't work, most likely.

The path from tabletop roleplaying to video game design seems like a pretty straightforward one, they both deal with nonlinearity in a fictiticous context, while screenwriters often are much better in constructing a complex and believeable scenario. I guess it all boils down to getting a good grasp of all of these factors and integrating writing and game design as much as possible. So there are no stereotyped hero/villain characters that later get souped up with philosophical banter by a writer who is hired for the last 5% of the development process to save what cannot be saved.

Logged

Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana. | www.56kmodern.com - game truth, shun error.
s0
o
Level 10
*****


eurovision winner 2014


View Profile
« Reply #43 on: January 05, 2011, 07:12:41 AM »

In one last word of defence of the superbrothers, it *WAS* a manifesto, and manifestos usually do lean towards extremism.
I think the more pressing question is why do we even need those "manifestos"? I agree with Craig's blog post, I'm getting sick of all these "ideological" approaches to game design being championed everywhere.

For me, the huge advantage of working indepently in a creative field is that you can do anything you want. If you want to limit yourself, great (I think everyone does that to some extent and it can be a powerful tool), but don't go around telling other people to limit themselves in the same way as you.
[/tangent]
Logged
SundownKid
Level 10
*****



View Profile WWW
« Reply #44 on: January 05, 2011, 07:19:27 AM »

I don't think there are extremes in the situation. The Superbrothers manifesto is clearly biased far too much towards "words bad, pictures good!" while hiring a novelist for your game will only serve to increase the amount of text in the game and not necessarily make it more cohesive with the gameplay. If people want to read a novel featuring the game's backstory or universe, that's great, but game writing is more like a very long screenplay, being a predominantly visual medium.
Logged

ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)
Level 10
*****


Also known as रिंकू.


View Profile WWW
« Reply #45 on: January 05, 2011, 08:36:35 AM »

to be clear, i did not say you should hire aspiring novelists. definitely not. hire established, published novelists. and of course you need to involve them in the design process; the design of a game should involve people from the entire team. when i design my games it's basically me and the writer designing most of it, but we also have input from the artists and musicians.
Logged

TheSpaceMan
Level 1
*



View Profile WWW
« Reply #46 on: January 05, 2011, 08:55:09 AM »

As of limiting yourself I do confess the limitations breed inspiration.
Give me a day and I can give you a 100 games with core features limited to the use of two buttons. Give me a day with no limits and I will give you a really overworked idea. ^^
But that might just be me...
Logged

Follow The Flying Thing, my current project.
http://forums.tigsource.com/index.php?topic=24421.0
s0
o
Level 10
*****


eurovision winner 2014


View Profile
« Reply #47 on: January 05, 2011, 04:38:15 PM »

Naw, limitations (both external and internal) are important and I, just like you, couldn't make anything decent without them. In fact, learning to limit yourself, to "harness" your creativity, is important in every creative field.

I do however believe that this stuff is highly personal and what a lot of those "manifesto" people do is claim everyone should use the same set of limitations just because it works for them.
Logged
DangerMomentum
Level 3
***



View Profile WWW
« Reply #48 on: January 07, 2011, 12:44:36 PM »

I think everyone is taking the Less Talk, More Rock article a little too seriously. The article isn't saying "Text bad, pictures good." What it's saying is, "Don't use text to communicate what an interactive visual could communicate better." It's basically the videogame equivalent of "Show, don't tell." In his Hall of Fame he lists Metroid Prime, which is a fairly text heavy game. The point is that the game doesn't force this on you or barrage you with it. Instead, it acts as a way to flesh out the world and provide interesting backstory, as well as move the actual plot forward. Metroid Prime 3 moved away from this and that's one of my biggest gripes about it.
Logged

SundownKid
Level 10
*****



View Profile WWW
« Reply #49 on: January 07, 2011, 01:01:12 PM »

Having played all the Metroid Prime games, my opinion is that the addition of the extraneous characters and plot totally diluted the experience and make MP3 feel like a farce. On the other hand, "LTMR" calls video game stories in general "idiotic" and text in games "always disruptive", which seems to me like a command rather than a suggestion. Simply by virtue of being in a game, the story doesn't become needless or incoherent, because otherwise I wouldn't have enjoyed the games with stories that I did. It's just not a good idea to add a plot to a series that became famous for... not having a plot.
Logged

Musenik
Level 2
**


View Profile WWW
« Reply #50 on: January 07, 2011, 01:15:18 PM »

I think everyone is taking the Less Talk, More Rock article a little too seriously. The article isn't saying "Text bad, pictures good." What it's saying is, "Don't use text to communicate what an interactive visual could communicate better."

...unless you can't afford all the interactive visuals it would take to communicate all the writings required for a particular game. (nearing 50 stories in arcada mia, with hundreds more to write :-)

Logged

DangerMomentum
Level 3
***



View Profile WWW
« Reply #51 on: January 07, 2011, 01:16:02 PM »

I agree with everything you said about MP3. I suppose what I said above is more what I took to be of value from the article, not everything the article said. I would argue that Metroid games do have plots, particularly Prime 1 and Super Metroid. The difference is that they are very passive about telling the story, allowing you to infer what happened instead of flat out telling you. Most of the story you discover is what has happened, not what is happening.

EDIT: In fact, now that I think about it, Super Metroid has the perfect example of what I mentioned before. Tourian manages to be a narrative in and of itself and it only uses one line of text. From the entrance and the re-introduction of the Metroid Larva to the climax of the battle with Mother Brain, the section is masterfully put together and one of my favorite moments in gaming. It's also one that manages to have a very strong emotional impact. If there had been narration explaining what was happening, or afterwards explaining what had happened, it would have been ruined. The game spoke for itself and you understood. That's what I think the article is talking about, and I would love to see more of that.
« Last Edit: January 07, 2011, 01:22:16 PM by AMT » Logged

Tiderion
Level 0
***


Game Writer/Designer


View Profile
« Reply #52 on: February 21, 2011, 06:21:13 PM »

I think this is pretty self-explanatory on the surface. As aforementioned, many video game companies do not hire actual writers to do the work. The design aspect of a game, which includes writing, is often held as the job to which everyone aspires and is thus to which they are promoted. However, while everyone can write for games and even come up with concepts, not every can do either or both well.

Having a good writer for a game does not guarantee good writing in the game. Different game genres require different types of writing. Not all writers are adept at all genre styles. Games like Fallout 3 require a considerable amount of dialogue and item description writing but not necessarily scenario writing. The Halo series has limited divergent dialogue strings but there is a significant amount of detailed scenario writing. The Metroid Prime trilogy has little dialogue but significant amounts of item description. This would be tedious if it weren't for the fact that initial scans have limited description and the option to read more in the log.

Most writing types can be tedious if abundant and not also complemented by other types. Each game genre does best with different degrees of each writing type. One must also factor in the preferences of the assumed audience.
Logged
azeo
Level 1
*

Blank slate!


View Profile
« Reply #53 on: March 18, 2011, 07:45:39 AM »

I think something that needs to be said is lack of character development in games. Most games have little, if none at all, and for those that do do it (Mass Effect 2, for example) it usually falls into cliche territory.

Of course, I can see why it's kind of hard to have character development when the player is controlling the character, without making the player lose immersion. Which is why it is usually assigned to secondary characters.

But, with all this talk of gaming cliches, I think a point that is almost never brought up is that if you're making a game that costs 200 million, it has to be as universal as you can make it so you can sell enough copies. And if that means throwing in a cookie cutter storyline because that's "safe", then that's what you have to do, just like why you have to copy Call of Duty's multiplayer. And if you aren't making a 200 million game, chances are you don't have enough money/want to hire a proper writer.
Logged
Squibb_Wiggins
Level 0
*


View Profile
« Reply #54 on: March 18, 2011, 09:26:59 AM »

I think a lot of what stems bad writing in video games comes from games being influenced by either other video games, or by action movies that have bad writing. The other problem is that a lot of games (at least the ones I play) are translated from another language, and things get lost in translation.

Games influenced by other games have an obvious problem: They were influenced by old games where the plot wasn't a big deal (modern shooters especially). In today's story driven market, you can't just give a three page introduction in the instruction manual and then expect the player to see two or three cut scenes through a 12+ hour game, then have them wait out the ending. ADD takes over and then you have to show interactions between characters. An intricate plot has to unfold, and most game companies seem to really struggle with the concept.

Turning a good movie into a game or using good movies as a basis for a game doesn't work, because movies that have a good plot and make you want to watch inherently don't have enough action to make a game interesting to play. So when you take influence from a movie, it has to be an action thriller with wooden actors and one line deliveries. As more plot is added, the pace slows down, which gives the potential for the player to not want to continue. This creates new problems: How much plot is just enough to keep the player hooked? Does the cut scene take away the tension you've created in the gameplay? Are there cut scenes that are keeping the intensity of the game going?

Translated games have a whole different set of hurdles. I'm sure most of us here have played old SNES RPGs and action games from Japan. They all seem so smooth and well put together for the most part. But there are a lot of things that get translated that might have taken hours or even days to make the scene make sense in english.

To be honest, I don't think many game companies hire people that really know how to write to write the dialogue/monologues because they aren't usually the type to collaborate.
Logged
Tiderion
Level 0
***


Game Writer/Designer


View Profile
« Reply #55 on: March 19, 2011, 08:15:42 AM »

I've given some more thought on this subject because it really isn't enough to just say game producers don't hire actual writers.

Honestly, one of the most annoying things in games is how people you interact with don't really move after you talk to them, finish their quest, etc. So they tend to give you the same stock response every time you walk up no matter how many times you talk to them. Some of these characters are difficult to get around such as a bartender who has to be behind the bar. Most other characters you can script to remove them from the location after you have solved their quest. After you get a quest from a character, many games have that character either repeat the quest details if you speak to them again or ask how progress is going. Alternatively, you can add a quest log and remove the character from the game. When finished the character can be found.

These ideas easily fix some of the worst character interaction problems that pull down the game's writing credibility.

Otherwise, the major defining characteristic for how well written a game is has to be the general plot. Some of the best games have simple plots. Additionally, some of the most fun games have the worst or implausible plots.
Logged
Squiggly_P
Guest
« Reply #56 on: May 02, 2011, 09:01:17 PM »

If you look at it a different way, tho, the writing in games is probably a lot better than it should be. Consider the fact that games aren't really 'written' as much as they're designed around a set of mechanics and an exploration of the potential of those mechanics. The designers, artists, programmers, etc take these gameplay elements and design levels and situations that would best utilize those elements. The story is really just made up of a setting, some characters and a lot of contrived plot elements used to lead the player from situation to situation. The fact that some of these games actually have halfway decent stories is probably a credit to the guys who have to come up with this crap.

If you start out with a story and try to make a game that would tell that story in the best possible way, you'd probably end up with a game similar to those old 8- and 16-bit licensed games. A mix of games. A platforming section, an action section, a puzzle section, etc. Set pieces that are developed to fit the story, rather than having the story written to string together a bunch of FPS levels or RPG boss battles.

It would be interesting to look at some games - especially those that are considered "great" games - and really dig into the story and how it plays out. Is there foreshadowing? Do they set up plot elements or ideas and then pay them off later? Is the dialogue anything more than just blatant exposition, or is there subtext going on? Are there thematic elements? Maybe games should start expecting more of the player. In most games you barely have to think at all. You have an objective on this level and you go complete that objective. Then you move on to another level and another objective. The player is a rat in a maze trying to get to the exit and the bit of cheese there. Gotta be a better way to develop a game so that the player isn't just jumping through hoops to get a prize.

But I think the biggest problem with the writing in games is the way the characters are so totally flat. Most of the time the dialogue is just people telling you what your goals are, expositing some relevant information or saying some generic line over and over. The guys writing this stuff think that having an NPC talk about themselves is the best way to give the characters depth. Even the best games have those sort of characters. In any other media, blatant exposition is one of the most obvious things you should avoid, but in games that's practically the only sort of dialogue there is.
Logged
filosofiamanga
Level 1
*


View Profile
« Reply #57 on: May 18, 2011, 08:33:40 AM »

Lol, It's so funny to read this, I don't want to sound as a troll, because I'm not, but I think everyone here talks about something they (to be sincere) don't have a clue about what are you talking about?

Lol, Writing for videogames is COMPLETELY DIFERENT from a Book, a Movie or whoever you put me as example of good writing.
In literature, I can only name Three examples of writing (books) that can be suited for videogames:
///+++/// Angry Angry Angry
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypertext_fiction
Hypertext fiction is the closest the literature can be with videogames, It's in a blurry line with videogames, as visual novels (lol, lot of echi and H-games) proves.
///+++/// Grin Grin Grin
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Choose_Your_Own_Adventure
Choose your own adventure I think everyone played it as a kid, another way to show you how complex is the story in a player's driven adventure.
///+++/// Evil Evil Evil
Now, THE ONLY, THE CHOSEN ONE, whoever...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rayuela
Rayuela of Julio Cortazar, It shows that videogame writing is posible, a book that you can read in any order (There's like three basic ways -orders- to read it in the book's index).
If you haven't read it, you can't speak about writing for videogames (so STFU).
You always talk about novels writers, but I told you: Fuck them! I think any TV show writer, movie screenwriter or novel writer would be fucked up trying to write a book like Julio Cortazar 50 years ago.

 Blink Blink Blink Blink*********
But the problem with videogames is even more complex, even if you make something like Rayuela you would suck making it as a videogame, why... because of a simple word:
INTERACTIVITY
Remember this: A GAME DOESN'T NEED STORY, ONLY INTERACTIVITY
Yeah, remember: most great games of all times doesn't have a great story:
-) Fucking TETRIS, man!
-) Pac-man
-) Any Fucking Street Fighter II clon (kof 98/2002, EFZ).
-) Any racing game (lol, Mario Kart)
-) First Doom.
-) Any sports game (lol, soccer, Maiden, NFL)
-) Age of Empire II.
-) Lol, Any shoot'em up.
-) Mario Bross (Super Mario World/ 3)
-) Nintendogs, wii fit plus.
-) Any 70-NES games.
-) Contra (NES)
-) Metroid (SNES/NES)
-) Driver 2 (psone)
-) The sims
Any more examples?, yeah, my favorites:
-) Castlevania SOTN (psone)
One of my favorites games ever, why?... It was non-linear, It gives you a free liberty and didn't have any cutscenes in the middle of the game. For me there's no better example and definition of what a good videogame is and should be.
-) Final Fantasy VI (SNES).
Why... well, because of non-linear gameplay, even if it was a linear story, but It gives you a free liberty and didn't have any cutscenes in the middle of the game, only dialogs. It's non-linear (remember... after the world is destroyed and you can choose which character you want to rescue with celes in a non-linear order).
-) Freaking MINECRAFT!!!
There's no better example why a videogame doesn't need a linear story and linear path.
Just non-linear gameplay and 100% interactivity. Lol, I wonder why it's so popular.

Tell me, What's the diference between watching a walkthrough in youtube of any linear story driven game like Metal Gear solid 4, Uncharted 2, Final Fantasy XIII?
I told you: It's the Interactivity that makes a game, not their fucking cut-scenes that makes them an interactive movie.

I can tell you, I love some game's designers crazy idea that tells that the actual story of a game is made by the gameplay (yes, the players playing)
An example?
I can't think any writer could script this:



Yeah, Imagine that fight as a RPG boss, a writer couldn't designed (pre-scripted) and make it as amazing as is in the video.
Another example?



That's why I love this game, each time I play that game is diferent (the story is diferent), yeah, we call it "speed run" but actually it's the story of the player acting or reenacting that game.
I can tell you the same with another final example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QRnhHvHexsM
Now you understand?
A story in a videogame is made by the actual decisions of the player, not how good the event's are placed and his shitty dialog.
Do you need any probe? Well... what about Metroid M? or trying to play Dead space the 3rd time?

****/////****
****/////****
That's why I told you a game writer needs no only to know how to write, but also needs to know how to design, because story and gameplay are in reality one.
When you do that, when you design is based on a concept and you farm the idea, make it grow, you can make really strong things:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3o0HFXPfco
Some people cry playing that game, other's didn't, some say it make them appreciated their lifes... blah, blah, blah.
Maybe the game is poor, low graphics, low interactivity. But It really shows when a game is well designed around an idea, fusing gameplay mechanics and USING THE WRITING SKILL to give them meaning that videogames shine as a medium, not just cloning others games or putting togheter gameplay mechanics that doesn't fit togheter well.
Other example?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=boPHncFbmII
Now you see the real power of videogames, they shine when you don't try to make them as movies, well because... THEY'RE NOT FUCKING MOVIES, THEY'RE INTERACTIVE (and non-linear).

///****////
Yeah, also the writer need to know how to pseudocode, he doesn't need to be a programmer, but he need's at least to make a design (pseudocode) that could be easily implemented by the coders of the game.
Yeah, this part is important, it allow to the writer to create things like events engine (not just brench trees dialogs) and to ask things like this:
-) "Realistic NPC behaviour" (Seek in google, there's a lot of academic writings about how to implement that in a engine or game)

****/////****
///****/////

Well, I think you understand now that videogames need writers, that:
MANDATORY
-) that can design games (so they can make non-linear stories and mix gameplay with story)
-) that know how to code at least a Tetris game (they don't need to be programmers, but they need to understand the engineering part of making events, posibilities and limits of the engine, just to understand technical stuff in the videogame, lol, RPG maker stuff)
NOT MANDATORY, but extremely usefull
-) can at least know to draw (so they can give a better idea for the designers and artist of the game)
-) To know about History, science, art history, literature, politics, economics (Well... to make the world and character background)
-) know about music (Well to expresse better the feeling of the scene to the composers of the game, telling them: "This should sound like this")

Seek a book called "Creating Emotion in Games: The Craft and Art of Emotioneering" of David Freeman for more info about writing for videogames.

***////****
***////****

That's why just hiring a book writer or (cinema) writer is not just enough, and There's this feeling that games cannot have good story, because generally all the team dev doesn't know about the special needs of a game story.

****////****
I feel like I wanted to write this a long time ago.
If you want copy paste this shit to your blog, other forums, etc.
made by Filosofiamanga
Sorry if I sound like a troll, to much 4chan, lol.
Logged
Theophilus
Guest
« Reply #58 on: May 18, 2011, 09:22:31 AM »

Maybe you could stop saying Lol in the middle of your sentences. Wink
Logged
Zecks
Level 1
*



View Profile
« Reply #59 on: May 19, 2011, 01:12:00 AM »

cutscenes aren't the ultimate evil, there's just way too much to improve on their implementation and design

but i agree with the gameplay story stuff

also how does ffvi not have cutscenes. nor a great story (still by today's standards. haters can fuck off.)
Logged

indy games are a bull shit
Pages: 1 2 [3] 4
Print
Jump to:  

Theme orange-lt created by panic