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[dmoonfire]

I think I really like C#, and would probably lose a lot of productivity going to C++ (also, that's my day job).

I love C#, mainly because it is productive for me also. But, I didn't really get into it until after the Mono project let me use C# on Linux. Then, I could use Emacs and had my precious tools.

but yeah, I'm moving out of XNA after this... or maybe keeping the stubs, but making my own wrappers for graphics, sound, and input, so that I can switch between OpenGL and XNA's directx easily.

Making things OpenGL friendly is always nice. Makes it easier to port to Linux or Mac. At least, that is what I was trying to do with BooGame and my own libraries, though I suspect I still have a long way to go on those.

[Bezzy]

Third page? Screw it.

BIRTHDAY BUMP

[shrimp]

Hey, after some DirectX-not-installed-foolishness, I managed to have a decent play on this last night. I really like the look and the missile mechanics.

My one complaint is that I felt a bit sick after playing for a while, but that might have been mainly due to the fumes from the noxious chemicals being applied to our kitchen floor  (or maybe it would benefit from a mouse-look deadzone? i'm not sure...)

I'd really love to play a post-compo version with all the trading and upgrading stuff in it. Don't be discouraged!

[superflat]

Bezzy I really wanted to try this as we've obviously gone for a similar feel, but I can't seem to play any damn XNA games, even after putting all that stuff on.

[Alex May]

Make sure you have the absolute latest DirectX even if you already have 9.0c.

Make sure you get the latest XNA 2.0 redistributable.

Make sure you have .NET 2.0 framework redistributable installed.

I don't know why Microsoft have made it this hard, but if you have all of these things and a video card that can do shaders (I guess a late 4-series or 5-series onward Nvidia card will do?) then it really should Just Work.

[Sar]

Make sure you have the absolute latest DirectX even if you already have 9.0c.

Also note: If you don't have .NET installed when you install DirectX, it seems it doesn't install the managed components which XNA needs, because that's the obvious helpful thing to do. Everyone probably has them by now, because .NET1.1 at least has been part of XP for so long, surely a new version of DX has been released since then? But it's worth checking.

Someone (I don't recall who, I'm afraid) confirmed the other day on IRC that the XNA installer helpfully doesn't bother to tell you when you don't have these prerequisites installed, so it's probably worth reinstalling DirectX if you're having XNA issues you can't seem to pin down, just in case.

[Melly]

Mmm... lemme try that.

EDIT: No dice, and I have XNA installed already.

[Massena]

I played it and liked pretty much all of it except for the steering, it sort of confused me. What was going on? Was it the inability to brake that confused me? I don't know. Everything else was great. I did find a bug where I used the trust for too long (2 minutes in one direction) and was unable to turn afterwards.
Great job anyways! 

[mstrimmp]

after some xna dx and other installs I finally got this running and there are some good and some bad about this game. i will start with the good: the look of the game is pretty cool, and the game is original i never played a shooter like this before except for maybe rez that had the same feel. now the bad i think the game needs much more work to be playable. the controls are jerky there is no clear indication of a lock with missles, missle locking is hard, and it is difficult to aim at enemys with jerky controls. it is supposed to be a shooter and it plays too slow for a good shooter. the look is cool but the original video looked a lot better, like this is the prototype and that is the finished game
Tehere is lot of potensal with this game but as it stands now it seems to need more work on the design for it to be fun. good effort, but try to make it more fun and so you can understand what is going on better

[Bezzy]

Thanks for the feedback, everyone, and especially haowan for clearing up what's needed (cos I wasn't even sure :/ ).

The lockons: Yeah, they're not perfect. The "front edge" of the lockon arc doesn't line up with the crosshair (a bug I described earlier but didn't manage to fix in time). Also, the icon might be confused for a health bar. All fixable though.

As far as jerky controls go, yeah, there's some issues some people have been having. Might be a combination of mouse sensitivity and frame rate... I'll have to try it on crapper/better/more machines.

I was playing with the idea of "dodging" by jerking the controls in a direction. It kind of works, but it needs a lot more tweaking before I can write it off, and it depends on a lot of other things than just control implementation: You need more telegraphing of the bullet path to be able to dodge it. I guess I'm experimenting with a "tie-fighter meets bullet hell" mechanic... maybe it's impossible, but it'll be interesting to try it.

But yeah. I didn't have enough time to polish everything. Sorry about that.

[FARTRON]

http://forums.tigsource.com/index.php?topic=1750.msg47815#msg47815



Kind sir, I long to play your game.

[Bezzy]

Unfortunately, <PlatformTarget>x86</PlatformTarget> is already in the project files. Checked last night.

Once again, I am really sorry it's not working. I've already started looking into SDL.NET, though.

All I do is leave waves of disappointment behind me 

[superflat]

Bezzy, I got it working man!

[RANT]God damn if I didn't have to install and re-install everything at least twice...  I understand the appeal of XNA, and I've looked into it, but support from Microsoft is bloody useless.  Endless nondescript downloads with no explanation as to what they do or why you need them, arcane files with impenetrable names , serial packs, updates...  And that's for the end-user, never mind the developer!  It's a good thing I've done a degree in CS, because I needed it to figure out which serial packs and redistributables I might need.  I mean who, outside of geek-world, knows what any of it even means?  They've obviously only designed it for the Xbox, or they'd have just included all that crap in their Windows packages.  So if
I'm looking to go that route in the future, I'd probably end up doing the home computer version outside of XNA, just to increase my potential players.[/RANT]

Anyway, here's my feedback sir:

The good
========

- I love the hud, the various reticules and indicators.  They look slick ad they're intuitive to follow.
- The style is nice and consistent.
- The mouse gestures are interesting, but not obvious yet...  A tutorial's needed really.
- It has a calming feel.
- I love some of the effects, especially the wavy lines following the craft.
- The control I think is nice and smoot, I don't have any issues with it really.

The not-so-good
===============

- First thing I need to really get into it is a slightly clearer way of navigating to my enemies.  An X-Wing style radar would really help here, even though you have the arrow-like indicators on the HUD.
- I'm not gonna be harsh because it's clearly unfinished, but I think it needs a general balancing.  It feels.. I dunno... slow?  I want more action, more of a feeling like my life's in danger, that the odds are against me.  It has a fairly sedate pace at the moment.  Maybe the enemy AI needs to be more aggressive?
- I know you've gone for the 360degree shooter, but I think if you're gonna stick with it, I need more reference material in the background from which to navigate.  Planets perhaps?  Or just abstract patterns?  As it stands I can't get a feel of which corner of the arena is which colour.
- Putting death / gameover screens would really help it feel like more of a game.

Anyway, I really like what I've seen so far, and I hope you keep developing it. Good work Bezzy!

[Bezzy]

Thanks for all this feedback!

The not-so-good
===============

- First thing I need to really get into it is a slightly clearer way of navigating to my enemies.  An X-Wing style radar would really help here, even though you have the arrow-like indicators on the HUD.

The shield doubles up as your radar, but it needs some clarification, and since the ship moves all over the shop, it doesn't keep a very good locus. I'll experiment with it, and the x-wing style radar will be the safety net.

- I'm not gonna be harsh because it's clearly unfinished, but I think it needs a general balancing.  It feels.. I dunno... slow?  I want more action, more of a feeling like my life's in danger, that the odds are against me.  It has a fairly sedate pace at the moment.  Maybe the enemy AI needs to be more aggressive?

Yep. I just ran out of time on those kinds of things. So much set up work, and no time to tweak those things. The enemies, in particular, were going to be a bigger deal wrt upgrading themselves... it just didn't come through in time.

- I know you've gone for the 360degree shooter, but I think if you're gonna stick with it, I need more reference material in the background from which to navigate.  Planets perhaps?  Or just abstract patterns?  As it stands I can't get a feel of which corner of the arena is which colour.

Yeah. It's a little bit spatially agnostic at the moment. Plus, the automatic movement doesn't immediately click.

- Putting death / gameover screens would really help it feel like more of a game.

There is one! I must have worked on it (and scoring systems) for AN WHOLE HOUR!

Anyway, I really like what I've seen so far, and I hope you keep developing it. Good work Bezzy!

Thanks! I'm also annoyed at the XNA issues, and a little embarassed at what I put out, considering how polished everyone else's stuff is. But I think it's alright as a rough first stab at prototyping the game play. Not really a competition contender, but it was a good experience for me overall. And that's what matters. Says a loser.

[superflat]

Mate down be down-hearted... I admire your ambition, and think you did brilliantly considering the complexity of the project.  I think more people played yours than mine!  Anyway, we both have lots of tech issues that mean lots of people couldn't get them working.

I know what you mean about not having much time because of all the setup stuff, 3D + C++ is a lot more work than a pixel joint. I got to the same stage and felt like giving up.  But a couple of days just concentrating on playability and pace definitely helped.  It's not too late!  I'd still love to see the next revision.

I hope to see you in the next compo at the very least.

Take care,

Jasper

[DanLomez]

The tagline “Rez meets Tie Fighter’s combat plus some other Konjakky gesturey attacks” is an extremely ambitious description. It seems that this game is the victim of “It’s great on paper, but not in implementation” syndrome. Granted, it is a prototype but to be honest I cannot see the connection to Rez, Tie Fighter or anything Konjak has ever done. It seems like the designer is a little better at marketing and talking up the game then actually developing it to the specs presented. Yes there is the gimmick of circling around an enemy to lock on which is kind of like Konjak and you are in a ship, so that’s kind of like Tie Fighter, the reference to Rez is lost on me. The missile lock on, when it works, seems to do it’s job, but it seems like more of gimmick so the designer can feed off the popularity of saying “this game uses gestures like Konjak’s games” to wet the palette of a potential player by relating this game to a more popular and well put together game to make up for short comings in design rather than something that is actually useful or intuitive.

Aiming is difficult, shooting is slow, and the feel of the game is extremely sluggish, not in frame rate but overall feel. I’m on an AMD x2 with a GeForce 8800 so I know it’s not frame rate, the game “runs” perfectly. With the amount of geometry and the fact that it is written in XNA it would be difficult to make this game framey, the sluggishness comes from the rate of fire in the game. In shooters you fire tons of bullets, this you seem to fire one bullet every half second or so. It’s hard to accurately aim because the ship is constantly jumping around almost like there is no sort of deadzone or any sort of dampening of mouse movement. There needs to be serious work done on the controls.

The art style is almost annoyingly minimalist not offering the user any actual recognizable feedback to teach the player exactly what to do and what mistakes they are making while playing. Any indication of award or failure is lost due to the overly “different” approach the designer took to user feedback. The shield / radar, again sounds awesome on paper, but in game it would be more preferable to have a radar where a first time user could accurately see where enemies are and in which direction the player should turn to fire on them.

The menu irritated me to no end, it’s almost like the designer wants the user to get frustrated and give up by not knowing exactly what to do. Pausing in the middle of the game brings up a blue ring that you must navigate to the center of to get back into the game if the controls do not immediately show up in the center of the screen. The menu is original, and I complement the designer on the fact that he is trying to get away from the everyday menu, however original is only good if the implementation is intuitive and well done. There is a reason menus are text based with options to select, because it’s the simplest approach to getting in and playing the game. Not to say that this menu didn’t allow for quick pick up and play once you got the hang of it, but it was irritating not being totally used to it at the beginning. I don’t think a player should have to learn how to work a menu.

Maybe when this game is finished it will be everything that the creator has hyped it up to be, but as it stands now it’s far from being. I offer this criticism after playing the game around 6 times, take it or leave it, it is my opinion. These are all extremely obvious problems with this game that everyone seems a little too nice to put out there. People aren’t helping the designer any by being overly nice. People learn from criticism, not from saying everything is “Great and awesome” when there are glaring short comings in the game. This isn’t to try to knock the designer or the obvious hard work he put into developing the game, but to offer an honest outside opinion that can help and inspire him to further develop the game to make it better. I applaud the effort as I realize the work put in to developing a prototype. I think the main problem is the designer is trying to make a very familiar game, a shooter, and take out everything that makes a shooter easy and enjoyable to play and replacing it with an obvious overcompensation in design to make up for the fact that under it all this is a basic game. Be proud of the basic game, don’t try to mask it with gimmicks and supposedly “clever” systems that add nothing to the game other than a layer of confusion. This game is a shooter, for all intents and purposes, but as it stands right now it is not a good shooter. In the future, I think it can be a decent game, but as it stands right now the design and overall feel of the game needs to be carefully reconsidered. Bezzy, I hope you continue working on the game and make it live up to the ambitions you have posted in this thread.

Dan

[Bezzy]

... This isn’t to try to knock the designer or the obvious hard work he put into developing the game, but to offer an honest outside opinion that can help and inspire him to further develop the game to make it better...

Yes!

Inspiring!

* Bezzy picks up teeth, and tries not to choke on his own blood.

[Alex May]

The tagline “Rez meets Tie Fighter’s combat plus some other Konjakky gesturey attacks” is an extremely ambitious description. It seems that this game is the victim of “It’s great on paper, but not in implementation” syndrome. Granted, it is a prototype but to be honest I cannot see the connection to Rez, Tie Fighter or anything Konjak has ever done. It seems like the designer is a little better at marketing and talking up the game then actually developing it to the specs presented. Yes there is the gimmick of circling around an enemy to lock on which is kind of like Konjak and you are in a ship, so that’s kind of like Tie Fighter, the reference to Rez is lost on me. The missile lock on, when it works, seems to do it’s job, but it seems like more of gimmick so the designer can feed off the popularity of saying “this game uses gestures like Konjak’s games” to wet the palette of a potential player by relating this game to a more popular and well put together game to make up for short comings in design rather than something that is actually useful or intuitive.

Aiming is difficult, shooting is slow, and the feel of the game is extremely sluggish, not in frame rate but overall feel. I’m on an AMD x2 with a GeForce 8800 so I know it’s not frame rate, the game “runs” perfectly. With the amount of geometry and the fact that it is written in XNA it would be difficult to make this game framey, the sluggishness comes from the rate of fire in the game. In shooters you fire tons of bullets, this you seem to fire one bullet every half second or so. It’s hard to accurately aim because the ship is constantly jumping around almost like there is no sort of deadzone or any sort of dampening of mouse movement. There needs to be serious work done on the controls.

The art style is almost annoyingly minimalist not offering the user any actual recognizable feedback to teach the player exactly what to do and what mistakes they are making while playing. Any indication of award or failure is lost due to the overly “different” approach the designer took to user feedback. The shield / radar, again sounds awesome on paper, but in game it would be more preferable to have a radar where a first time user could accurately see where enemies are and in which direction the player should turn to fire on them.

The menu irritated me to no end, it’s almost like the designer wants the user to get frustrated and give up by not knowing exactly what to do. Pausing in the middle of the game brings up a blue ring that you must navigate to the center of to get back into the game if the controls do not immediately show up in the center of the screen. The menu is original, and I complement the designer on the fact that he is trying to get away from the everyday menu, however original is only good if the implementation is intuitive and well done. There is a reason menus are text based with options to select, because it’s the simplest approach to getting in and playing the game. Not to say that this menu didn’t allow for quick pick up and play once you got the hang of it, but it was irritating not being totally used to it at the beginning. I don’t think a player should have to learn how to work a menu.

Maybe when this game is finished it will be everything that the creator has hyped it up to be, but as it stands now it’s far from being. I offer this criticism after playing the game around 6 times, take it or leave it, it is my opinion. These are all extremely obvious problems with this game that everyone seems a little too nice to put out there. People aren’t helping the designer any by being overly nice. People learn from criticism, not from saying everything is “Great and awesome” when there are glaring short comings in the game. This isn’t to try to knock the designer or the obvious hard work he put into developing the game, but to offer an honest outside opinion that can help and inspire him to further develop the game to make it better. I applaud the effort as I realize the work put in to developing a prototype. I think the main problem is the designer is trying to make a very familiar game, a shooter, and take out everything that makes a shooter easy and enjoyable to play and replacing it with an obvious overcompensation in design to make up for the fact that under it all this is a basic game. Be proud of the basic game, don’t try to mask it with gimmicks and supposedly “clever” systems that add nothing to the game other than a layer of confusion. This game is a shooter, for all intents and purposes, but as it stands right now it is not a good shooter. In the future, I think it can be a decent game, but as it stands right now the design and overall feel of the game needs to be carefully reconsidered. Bezzy, I hope you continue working on the game and make it live up to the ambitions you have posted in this thread.

Dan

It's "palate" btw

[JP]

The menu irritated me to no end, it’s almost like the designer wants the user to get frustrated and give up by not knowing exactly what to do.

(snip)

Full disclosure: Bezzy's an old friend of mine, and a big influence on my career as a designer.

Pretty much all of this feedback was substantive and useful, but there was probably a more constructive way that most of it could have been delivered.  The influences list was just that, games in the vein of, not a litany of PR promises.  If you applied this vector of criticism to every relevant post in the forums, you'd get a lot of apologies and ruffled feathers.  Unclear to me what the value in pointing it out was.

As for the other crits, again the substance is useful but the tone isn't.  Anytime someone does a game, a prototype no less which is dev speak for "timid first dip of toe into water", that isn't instantly classifiable and tries to re-think some established assumptions (whether or not it is successful at all) it's going to come out more awkwardly than if you'd stuck to a more known design... unless you're someone like Cactus whose modus operandi is constantly surprising everyone

Basically I really hope indie is a place where people can do less polished re-thinks as well as really polished stuff in a very established design space (eg puzzle games, top-down shmups, etc).  The more off the beaten path you go, the more there is to criticize... that's pretty much a given.  Discouragement of that is the last thing we need more of.

[Alex May]

Full agreement here. Essentially Dan's post fails the

If you can't say anything nice...

test.