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[Dustin Smith]

fuck what that guy thinks
seriously

[s0]

so you really do think he's a troll? maybe i'm just using troll in a different way than others. to me, a troll is someone who says something to annoy others, but doesn't actually believe what he is saying.

The term has changed its meaning to "anyone the person using it disagrees with on the internet" over time.
 

But no, in all seriousness, I don't think Icycalm is a troll either. Or if he is, he's both one of the most elaborate and most pathetic trolls in history.

I mean, do you guys really believe he would have written all those lengthy articles over the course of 4+ years, most often garnering very little attention outside of his "fanbase" if he just did it all "for the lulz"?

[eva_]

no cactus is just a troll.. no one gona tak this seriously anyway just drop it i guess

[Melly]

Perhaps we should have a vote to determine where this thread should head towards.

I propose bagels.



Icycalm Bagels, cooked at the fires of His Highness Icycalm's unending insecure hatred.

[deathtotheweird]

i fucking love bagels

i do not love icycalm

[Dustin Smith]

blueberry cream cheese is delicious on bagels; an old friend of mine pronounces them "badge-ells" and that used to get a laugh.

when i ran marathons they were a staple carb-loading device.

[eva_]

piza bagel piza bagel piza bagel piza bagel

[floatstarpx]

how comes all the long threads on this board are about trolling? can't we talk about vidya games no more??

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

fuck what that guy thinks
seriously

that would be easy if it were just him. in this thread, eva has expressed agreement with many of his basic ideas. anarkex and ashford pride, who both post on this forum, are big fans of icycalm too. and remember pigscene? jim sterling (who isn't an insignificant journalist)? even many indie developers like coolmoose have said similar things. and all the frontpage trolls who post on any experimental game? that false alex may guy from microwaving.net (not haowan, he just has an identical name), mutilator, and many more?

so even if we ignore icycalm himself (which we probably should) i think the basic widespread idea that art games are a sham, ruining games, pseudo-intellectual, and that games are just for fun and never should try to be anything more than that needs to be fought against in some form eventually. icycalm may be a pathetic example, but it is a widespread belief system.

[floatstarpx]

so even if we ignore icycalm himself (which we probably should) i think the basic widespread idea that art games are a sham, ruining games, pseudo-intellectual, and that games are just for fun and never should try to be anything more than that needs to be fought against in some form eventually. icycalm may be a pathetic example, but it is a widespread belief system.

you plan on fighting against it by arguing on forum threads? i don't think that's ever going to work.
i don't think i've ever seen a forum argument where someone has changed their opinion. it's not productive.

who cares if you can list some people who have differing opinions from yours on this subject. let it stay that way. arguing and fighting will only make people annoyed.

the best way to fight against it is to make something excellent, and hope that people see it for that. get to those who have yet to form an opinion, and show them the good.

[PGGB]

fuck what that guy thinks
seriously

that would be easy if it were just him. in this thread, eva has expressed agreement with many of his basic ideas. anarkex and ashford pride, who both post on this forum, are big fans of icycalm too. and remember pigscene? jim sterling (who isn't an insignificant journalist)? even many indie developers like coolmoose have said similar things. and all the frontpage trolls who post on any experimental game? that false alex may guy from microwaving.net (not haowan, he just has an identical name), mutilator, and many more?

so even if we ignore icycalm himself (which we probably should) i think the basic widespread idea that art games are a sham, ruining games, pseudo-intellectual, and that games are just for fun and never should try to be anything more than that needs to be fought against in some form eventually. icycalm may be a pathetic example, but it is a widespread belief system.

If you truly want to explore this further, I think the best idea would be to create another thread, same ideas, but keep icycalm completely out of the equation. You list lots of people here that are way more important to TIGS, but way less obnoxious.

If you ask me, the whole "are art games a sham" thing has been explored in almost any artgame discussion and of those we had a lot already.

[Melly]

I don't believe it's as widespread as you think Paul, because of that whole thing about the highly vocal minority looking larger than it really is. If anything we don't really know how big a percentage of people that feel threatened by games as more than past-times. Some of those people you mentioned also rely on shock-value to get more popularity, like Sterling, and most obviously Icycalm. Maybe not-so-Calm doesn't even give a shit about artgames or what they represent. Maybe he just sees an easy opportunity to make noise, be noticed, inflate his fragile ego and gain followers.

[eva_]

blablbalba the problem is people will read this post and go straight for the fucking bad word without taking the point in to consideration

[floatstarpx]

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

you plan on fighting against it by arguing on forum threads? i don't think that's ever going to work.
i don't think i've ever seen a forum argument where someone has changed their opinion. it's not productive.

who cares if you can list some people who have differing opinions from yours on this subject. let it stay that way. arguing and fighting will only make people annoyed.

the best way to fight against it is to make something excellent, and hope that people see it for that. get to those who have yet to form an opinion, and show them the good.

icycalm himself said something interesting about this (in another context). he said that of course arguments aren't going to convince the other side. that isn't their purpose. the purpose of all his anti-art game writings isn't to convince people who like art games not to like them. it's to convince third parties: people who never heard of art games or have no opinion on art games not to like them.

similarly, the goal in arguing for art games isn't to convince people who hate them not to hate them anymore. that certainly can't be done, they've already made up their minds. instead, the purpose of good arguments is to convince people who may happen to read both sides, people who had never heard of the issue before, decide that there are merits to experimenting with the game form.

so i absolutely agree that you can't convince anyone of anything if they already decided against it. but i do feel that you can influence people who have not yet made up their mind, or people who are just coming into the community who have no opinion yet on art games, people who may have never even heard of art games.

[Dustin Smith]

fucking bad word

how durhe you!

Jim Sterling is a schlock/shock journo that purposefully tries to get a rise out of indies. I'd fully venture a different thread given other people's viewpoints, but icycalm himself is an asshole.

[floatstarpx]

so i absolutely agree that you can't convince anyone of anything if they already decided against it. but i do feel that you can influence people who have not yet made up their mind, or people who are just coming into the community who have no opinion yet on art games, people who may have never even heard of art games.

totally.
a massive argument thread is not the way to do that. it makes people on both sides look like petty, squabbling dicks. maybe it even puts people off entering in to the community at all, on occasion.

the best way to do this - rise above, create and post about high-quality, excellent art games (or whatever the particular subject may be)...
lets see some posts about games, rather than posts about arguments about games?

i imagine it's probably easier and more satisfying to argue for some people, however!

[Melly]

People have a tendency of taking the path of least resistance and most short-term rewards.

[mirosurabu]

Discussion can be productive, but not this sort of discussion.

Now, I want more cactus comics.

[eva_]

damn tigsource is stupid