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TIGSource ForumsPlayerGamesearth-shattering battle between icycalm and jason rohrer
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Author Topic: earth-shattering battle between icycalm and jason rohrer  (Read 430457 times)
eva_
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« Reply #20 on: January 01, 2011, 05:28:26 PM »

Quote
that innovative games aren't worth exploring because basically all the good formulas have been found, isn't something that many besides icycalm and eva believe
no because
i think game innovation doesnt need to (and shouldnt) revolve around gimmicks and "experimental" junk -
and that sequels has just as much chance to "innovate" on something thats actually practical (as opposed to something like portal)
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JoGribbs
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« Reply #21 on: January 01, 2011, 05:31:01 PM »

i think he's said some original things which aren't common sense and can't be found anywhere else, but i agree that the way he says them makes them unlikely to be discussed because they're hidden under all the hate.

sequels being not so bad may not be the best example though; although i at least submit that the idea that the mainstream industry has *no problem* with sequels and that it should be that way, and that innovative games aren't worth exploring because basically all the good formulas have been found, isn't something that many besides icycalm and eva believe

Whether icycalm's ideas are commonly supported or not isn't really the point. I think that the interesting things he might have to say need to be disconnected from his vitriol for anybody to take them seriously, or to foster a healthy discussion. You and eva had to clean up what icycalm was saying pretty considerable in order to show that it was intelligible or interesting.

I don't agree with Roher in regards to mainstream games and sequels, but judging from the tone of that email, and the fact he exercised a frankly ludicrous amount of restraint towards icycalm, I'm sure I could have a discussion about it with him without descending into name-calling. I think it's so far shown to be impossible to engage with icycalm in that way, and I also think we wont do any good by trying.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2011, 05:36:14 PM by Jogr » Logged
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« Reply #22 on: January 01, 2011, 05:53:24 PM »

no because
i think game innovation doesnt need to (and shouldnt) revolve around gimmicks and "experimental" junk -
and that sequels has just as much chance to "innovate" on something thats actually practical (as opposed to something like portal)
But doesn't almost everything start out as a bit of a "gimmick"? Most of the time, the game that does something first doesn't do it particularly well and it takes a couple more tries either by the creators themselves or by other people to turn it from something "interesting" into something "good".

For instance, since we're already talking about FPSs. Have you played Catacomb 3D and Hover Tank? Those are some early examples of the "FPS" genre made by the same guys who later founded id Software that were both pretty mediocre and haven't aged very well. It took them until Doom (some might say Wolfenstein 3D) to really get the formula right and kick off what's arguably the biggest and most thriving genre of "action" games today.

If people had dismissed Hover Tank and Catacomb as "gimmicky experimental junk" and the id guys went back to making platformers like Commander Keen and Dangerous Dave, games like Halo or Counter-Strike probably wouldn't exist.
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« Reply #23 on: January 01, 2011, 05:58:37 PM »

I think what we really need is a considerably more flexible approach to the artform. "Art games" is a type of thinking I reject, but that's not because I believe games not to be art; it's for the same reason that I call bullshit on "literary fiction" or "art films." Games are art, like films or music or theatre; sometimes they are good art, sometimes not so much. That is up to their players to decide.

On the other hand, it's equally absurd to reduce games only to one element or direction. Does anyone believe there should only be one type of novel, only one type of filmmaking? Is only one form of poetry acceptable?

Wisdom is not in rejecting all sequels or making only sequels; wisdom is in knowing which games need sequels. Innovate where innovation is possible or necessary; expand that which deserves expansion.

As for gameplay and artistic/thematic depth - these are not opposites that we need to choose from. Does a painter have to choose between painting well and painting something interesting? The very debate is silly.
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mirosurabu
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« Reply #24 on: January 01, 2011, 06:15:56 PM »

I wouldn't dare to re-post Icycalm's posts. He can sue you because his trolling is only exclusive to his forums. So if you want quality trolling support him by going to his forums.

He loses money this way, you know.

No, seriously. You don't have to bother with angry people to find some wisdom. I still like reading him though. I like refuting trolling attempts. But so far, nothing THAT interesting to refute. So I'll skip it this time.

Keep me updated.

Quote
but for enhancing the enjoyment of your downtimes, your rest periods from the serious business of life: which is war.

Oh, wait! This slipped out of his mouth. It's exactly what's he's doing with Sir Rohrer.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2011, 06:26:15 PM by Miroslav Malesevic » Logged
qmvo73hoy
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« Reply #25 on: January 01, 2011, 06:23:22 PM »

Icycalm is a butcher, no one can defeat him.
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« Reply #26 on: January 01, 2011, 06:28:19 PM »

Icycalm is a butcher, no one can defeat him.
You mean because he bans everyone who isn't a complete spineless bootlicker from his forum?
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eva_
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« Reply #27 on: January 01, 2011, 06:29:22 PM »

no because
i think game innovation doesnt need to (and shouldnt) revolve around gimmicks and "experimental" junk -
and that sequels has just as much chance to "innovate" on something thats actually practical (as opposed to something like portal)
But doesn't almost everything start out as a bit of a "gimmick"? Most of the time, the game that does something first doesn't do it particularly well and it takes a couple more tries either by the creators themselves or by other people to turn it from something "interesting" into something "good".

For instance, since we're already talking about FPSs. Have you played Catacomb 3D and Hover Tank? Those are some early examples of the "FPS" genre made by the same guys who later founded id Software that were both pretty mediocre and haven't aged very well. It took them until Doom (some might say Wolfenstein 3D) to really get the formula right and kick off what's arguably the biggest and most thriving genre of "action" games today.

If people had dismissed Hover Tank and Catacomb as "gimmicky experimental junk" and the id guys went back to making platformers like Commander Keen and Dangerous Dave, games like Halo or Counter-Strike probably wouldn't exist.
i wouldnt call that a gimmick, and even then... improving on these early games (by "sequel" or whatever) is what made them better. what if id-soft just gave up on fps just because catacomb wasnt great?
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« Reply #28 on: January 01, 2011, 06:30:55 PM »

if they did that i'd have more respect for id Smiley

i move from genre to genre all the time, i think making a game in the same genre over and over is boring. like imagine if, after immortal defense, i just made another tower defense game, then another. that'd be boring, even if each one got better.
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qmvo73hoy
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« Reply #29 on: January 01, 2011, 06:34:14 PM »

You mean because he bans everyone who isn't a complete spineless bootlicker from his forum?

He bans people that break his rules.
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« Reply #30 on: January 01, 2011, 06:40:44 PM »

@eva:
Well yeah, that's what I meant.

I don't want this to sound like I have some grand vision for the future of games, but I think some things that are seen as  "gimmicks" now because they haven't been implemented well yet could be the basis for great games in the future. Just  like Hover Tank and Catacomb which relied pretty heavily on the novelty of "3D" graphics (not actually 3D but what gives) laid the groundwork for the FPS genre.
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eva_
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« Reply #31 on: January 01, 2011, 06:43:02 PM »

Quote
if they did that i'd have more respect for id

i move from genre to genre all the time, i think making a game in the same genre over and over is boring. like imagine if, after immortal defense, i just made another tower defense game, then another. that'd be boring, even if each one got better.
but theyre not you
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eva_
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« Reply #32 on: January 01, 2011, 06:46:00 PM »

also on "gimmicks" i think you know what kind of games im talkin bout here BUT ill save the talk dont want to offend anybody
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« Reply #33 on: January 01, 2011, 06:48:45 PM »

You mean because he bans everyone who isn't a complete spineless bootlicker from his forum?

He bans people that break his rules.
Which include being a bootlicker and agreeing with him on everything. I'm not saying this is wrong, it's obviously his forum and his bandwidth, he can ban whoever he likes.
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Dragonmaw
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« Reply #34 on: January 01, 2011, 06:52:32 PM »

You mean because he bans everyone who isn't a complete spineless bootlicker from his forum?

He bans people that break his rules.

And one of the rules is "worship me and everything I do."
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Dustin Smith
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« Reply #35 on: January 01, 2011, 06:54:48 PM »

i just get this mental image of a fat kid in a playground, screaming "it's my sandbox FAGOTs"

seriously, fuck this guy.
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ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)
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« Reply #36 on: January 01, 2011, 07:23:25 PM »

what rules did rohrer break when he banned rohrer before rohrer even posted a single time
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mcc
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« Reply #37 on: January 01, 2011, 07:43:26 PM »

I can't even really follow what's going on here.

I really like games with gimmicks, though
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ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)
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« Reply #38 on: January 01, 2011, 07:48:01 PM »

yeah, since when did 'gimmick' become a bad word in game design? it's a good word, the more gimmicks the better, gimmick just means a small invention
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eva_
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« Reply #39 on: January 01, 2011, 08:03:33 PM »

its not that its bad (no im gona be honest i dont like them at all)
gimmicks are just marketing fuel to claim ur game as som kind of innovative bullshit when its just something boring as teleporting in a bland platformer or moving some crates to climb shit

you know its a gimmick when the fun lasts for 10 seconds and then you realize, oh its just a platformer but replace this mechanic with this, and end up playing a 10 hour tutorial
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