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TIGSource ForumsPlayerGamesearth-shattering battle between icycalm and jason rohrer
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Author Topic: earth-shattering battle between icycalm and jason rohrer  (Read 430448 times)
ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)
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« Reply #80 on: January 03, 2011, 12:07:17 AM »

of course the portals and time stuff in braid aren't gimmicks in the marketing sense of the word gimmick, but words have more than one meaning, and gimmick also means invention. they're gimmicks in the sense of invention. marketing doesn't have a monopoly on the word gimmick just because they started using it recently.

and we're talking about how eva was using the term originally: she said that you should not create new types of game and only refine previous formulas, because anything else is a gimmick; the examples she gave of a gimmick is a platformer game centered around teleporting, or the portals in portal. so it's pretty clear to me that she meant gimmick in the sense of a new game mechanic that other games in the genre don't use that the game centers around, rather than in the sense of a marketing technique.
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jwk5
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« Reply #81 on: January 03, 2011, 01:36:34 AM »

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they're gimmicks in the sense of invention.
Except the problem is that the "invention" usage you keep referring to is a synonym to "gizmo" and  "gadget", and refers to a mechanical invention (i.e physical objects).

Anyways, it is not that big of a deal (I'm just bored and wasting time instead of making games, shame on me). In reference to Eva's usage, if that were true then virtually any aspect of almost every game was at one point or another a "gimmick". Most modern games are evolutions of older games that branched off due to various innovations. Refinements of previous formulas can only happen through small innovations so even at the base level of some of the most generic games there would be "gimmicks".
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Dragonmaw
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« Reply #82 on: January 03, 2011, 01:55:25 AM »

This is dumb. Who is "icycalm" and why should I care?

Nobody and you shouldn't.
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Seth
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« Reply #83 on: January 03, 2011, 01:57:45 AM »

gimmick-based games are to me like high-concept movies.  take any game where you can say in one sentence: "use a portal gun to solve puzzles!" or "navigate a space station by flipping gravity" or anything of the sort are most likely a gimmick-based game--that is, a game that is primarily focused around one flashy game mechanic.  
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Dragonmaw
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« Reply #84 on: January 03, 2011, 02:22:03 AM »

gimmick-based games are to me like high-concept movies.  take any game where you can say in one sentence: "use a portal gun to solve puzzles!" or "navigate a space station by flipping gravity" or anything of the sort are most likely a gimmick-based game--that is, a game that is primarily focused around one flashy game mechanic.  

The thing I think that people are trying to say, though, is that games where the "gimmick" is explored rather than being a superficial addition is not a gimmick.

For example, Portal. Portal is not a gimmick because the entire thread of the game revolves around the effective use of portals. From shortening movement time to leaping across gaps to launching yourself up a shaft. You can't do ANYTHING without the portals. And that's the key to not being labeled as a gimmick. It needs to be explored in a significant way, not thrown in for a quick appeal to "water cooler moments," as CliffyB would put it.

By contrast, Prey had portals. Slick ones, too! But they acted mostly as little side-vignettes, offering players a slick, but ultimately unfulfilling, glimpse at something shiny. This is a gimmick. The portals are never really used in any interesting way, and the game ended up being a cool but ultimately standard first-person shooter.

Saying that games which can be described in a single sentence are gimmicky is just plain silly. You can describe any game in a single sentence. In fact, you usually SHOULD to get a clear grounding of what the game's core mechanics are. A game needs a singular, cohesive concept to stay together. You delve too far outside the concept, and your mechanics conflict with each other in a bad case of "game cognitive dissonance." Plenty of games have it, but mainstream games suffer the worst, as indies don't have the time or resources to feature creep into dissonance territory. A few DO have heavy feature creep, like Dwarf Fortress and any concept by Arne, but these are marked by their adherence to a core gameplay objective. They feature creep like mad, but it only skirts dissonance rather than courting it.
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« Reply #85 on: January 03, 2011, 08:45:34 AM »

i've read it; i can't really summarize it though. but an interesting part about it was that he hates all shovelware and low budget games as a rule, and feels that only the highest of the highest budget games can be art: the more money spent on a game, the more artful.

also i think it's unfair to accuse him of mangling quotes or of homophobia. he's explained somewhere that he uses fagot with one g to distinguish it from the similar homophobic phrase. he also usually quotes people correct and interprets them correctly.

If that's how he feels about low-budget games, then fine - he's got plent of high-budget games to play. Where I get confused is that he seems mortally offended that low-budget games even exist, like it's not enough to simply ignore them, he has to somehow find a way to stop them being produced in the first place. Why does he seem to feel so threatened? I don't see Rohrer being willing or able to engineer the complete collapse of the AAA industry any time soon.

Re: Quote-mangling. The parts I've skimmed through seem to involve him taking quotes from Kael, and then replacing the word "movies" with "videogames", in what appears to be some sort of attempt to put his own words into the mouths of people who were talking about a different media in a different time. It's a pretty cheap trick. I'm probably missing something, but I don't see how extensively quoting someone talking about movies has any significant bearing on games. Likewise, I'm not sure that selectively quoting Nietzsche is likely to add much weight to any argument - as you proved, you can pick a different set of quotes and have them support a completely different conclusion to the one that Icycalm has arrived at.

Re: Homophobia. Frankly, the misspelling just makes him look illiterate rather than non-homophobic. It doesn't help his case to be throwing around words like that, misspelled or not, it just reeks of bigotry and a lack of imagination for coming up with a more suitable all-purpose derogatory term for indies. It's his site and he can say what he wants there, but stuff like that damages his ability to put forward the reasons for his bile rather than supports it.
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Jonas Kyratzes
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« Reply #86 on: January 03, 2011, 09:07:31 AM »

gimmick-based games are to me like high-concept movies.  take any game where you can say in one sentence: "use a portal gun to solve puzzles!" or "navigate a space station by flipping gravity" or anything of the sort are most likely a gimmick-based game--that is, a game that is primarily focused around one flashy game mechanic.  

So "get through two-dimensional levels by jumping over obstacles!" is a gimmick, and Donkey Kong is a gimmicky game.
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« Reply #87 on: January 03, 2011, 09:14:45 AM »

on portal: its not a gimmick just because it uses portals. its a gimmick to me because the game is boring as soon as the novelty of the portal mechanic runs out (runs out faster than someone on the internet can say "the cake is a lie") and its just a terrible 3d platformer + nerd humor underneath.
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eva_
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« Reply #88 on: January 03, 2011, 09:15:33 AM »

i didnt want to say this because every designer seems to hail this game as some kinda bible BUT WHATEVER
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Dragonmaw
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« Reply #89 on: January 03, 2011, 09:40:03 AM »

on portal: its not a gimmick just because it uses portals. its a gimmick to me because the game is boring as soon as the novelty of the portal mechanic runs out (runs out faster than someone on the internet can say "the cake is a lie") and its just a terrible 3d platformer + nerd humor underneath.
I personally don't really consider the portal "novelty" to run out at all. I still greatly enjoy the puzzles, three (four) years after release. As far as novelty goes, I'd classify something like the chainsaw kills in Gears of War to be novelty: something cool the first time you do it, but a mechanic whose usefulness is only proportionate to how shiny it is. As soon as you stop wanting to see the same chainsaw animation over and over again, it loses its sheen.

Also, dunno why you think Portal's platforming is awful? You don't really offer any reasons. I do agree that it uses "nerd humor," but I still enjoy the characterization. The thing that killed it is EVERYONE FUCKING REPEATING THE GAME'S LINES ONLINE.

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eva_
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« Reply #90 on: January 03, 2011, 10:19:44 AM »

whatever
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ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)
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« Reply #91 on: January 03, 2011, 11:19:53 AM »

The thing I think that people are trying to say, though, is that games where the "gimmick" is explored rather than being a superficial addition is not a gimmick.

i think it's more like: if an invention isn't superficial and is explored thoroughly, *then* it becomes a truly great gimmick. it's still sort of a gimmick before then, but not fully a gimmick because it hasn't been fully tested yet.

like imagine if you made a cup holder, but didn't test it with all kinds of cups; it wouldn't fully be explored yet, and wouldn't be a very good gimmick. but after you test it with all kinds of cups and it manages to hold almost every standard size cup you can think of in there, then it's a good gimmick, and a good addition to a car. if it could only hold one type of cup, it'd still be a gimmick, but a bad one.

regarding icycalm's beliefs about corruption: his belief may be a bit warranted because (if you read the original thread linked in the OP) rohrer and his ilk have convinced john romero and brenda brathwaite to go from creating (in icycalm's view) good, hardcore games into creating corrupted games; their latest game is a social facebook game about friendly forest animals. one of the commentators opined that they hoped romero was thinking like 'let's kill these forest animals!!' secretly (for according to icycalm games can't be artistic if they don't involve violence of some kind).
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Zaphos
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« Reply #92 on: January 03, 2011, 11:47:28 AM »

regarding icycalm's beliefs about corruption: his belief may be a bit warranted because (if you read the original thread linked in the OP) rohrer and his ilk have convinced john romero and brenda brathwaite to go from creating (in icycalm's view) good, hardcore games into creating corrupted games; their latest game is a social facebook game about friendly forest animals. one of the commentators opined that they hoped romero was thinking like 'let's kill these forest animals!!' secretly (for according to icycalm games can't be artistic if they don't involve violence of some kind).
I don't doubt that romero, in the many years since quake, has changed, has made new friends and that those relationships have affected him ... I just think it's absurd to attribute the change entirely to the friends and to call it "brainwashing".

And it's funny for icy to worry that anyone was intimidated by pseudo-intellectual airs.
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Dragonmaw
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« Reply #93 on: January 03, 2011, 12:08:55 PM »

The thing I think that people are trying to say, though, is that games where the "gimmick" is explored rather than being a superficial addition is not a gimmick.

i think it's more like: if an invention isn't superficial and is explored thoroughly, *then* it becomes a truly great gimmick. it's still sort of a gimmick before then, but not fully a gimmick because it hasn't been fully tested yet.

like imagine if you made a cup holder, but didn't test it with all kinds of cups; it wouldn't fully be explored yet, and wouldn't be a very good gimmick. but after you test it with all kinds of cups and it manages to hold almost every standard size cup you can think of in there, then it's a good gimmick, and a good addition to a car. if it could only hold one type of cup, it'd still be a gimmick, but a bad one.

The distinction people are trying to make in the thread, I think, is between gimmick and innovation. In your example a cup holder that only holds one type of cup is a gimmick, since it's there solely for people to go HOLY SHIT A CUP HOLDER. By contrast, the cup holder which holds all standard sizes is an innovation, as it fully "explores" (allows all cups to be used) the gimmick.

Likewise, compare limb dismemberment in gaming. In Call of Duty: World at War, it is solely a gimmick: a pretty, but ultimately valueless to the gameplay, feature. It looks good but offers nothing of real worth. Then look at Dead Space, which incorporates limb dismemberment as a core gameplay mechanic (you can, and must, dismember enemies in order to survive). The first is a gimmick, the second is innovation.
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« Reply #94 on: January 03, 2011, 12:16:31 PM »

Quote
I don't doubt that romero, in the many years since quake, has changed, has made new friends and that those relationships have affected him ... I just think it's absurd to attribute the change entirely to the friends and to call it "brainwashing".

And it's funny for icy to worry that anyone was intimidated by pseudo-intellectual airs.
Romero is a game developer trying to make money and he and Brathwaite certainly aren't the first "old school hardcore" devs to go with recent trends and "casualize" their games to make them appeal to bigger audiences. It's so strange that Icycalm thinks this is due to a tiny niche group of indie games no one cares about rather than the fact that gaming is becoming more mainstream.
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« Reply #95 on: January 03, 2011, 01:31:46 PM »

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First off I'll debunk his sham-friendly, reconciliatory attitude. It's a standard artfag tactic (and generally a tactic employed by weaklings) to paralyze enmity in the adversary.
I almost stopped reading any of this at the word "artfag" because nobody can be taken seriously using the dumb nounfag internet thing.

But then I saw the word WEAKLINGS.

NOBODY uses that word seriously, Obnoxious russian body builders maybe, but nobody fucking else.

After I read that I made this post and now I'm going to go get an English Muffin.

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« Reply #96 on: January 03, 2011, 01:38:14 PM »

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First off I'll debunk his sham-friendly, reconciliatory attitude. It's a standard artfag tactic (and generally a tactic employed by weaklings) to paralyze enmity in the adversary.
I almost stopped reading any of this at the word "artfag" because nobody can be taken seriously using the dumb nounfag internet thing.
To be fair, I think "art fag" actually precedes the "nounfag" thing started by 4chan. Not that it makes much of a difference.
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« Reply #97 on: January 03, 2011, 03:40:57 PM »

Each use of 'noun-fag' makes whatever you're saying 50% more incapable of being taken seriously by level-headed people.
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« Reply #98 on: January 03, 2011, 04:03:18 PM »

I use profanity (especially of the homophobic kind) because it makes me seem tough and manly. Ain't nothin' like asserting your own heterosexuality for a little ego boost.
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« Reply #99 on: January 03, 2011, 04:26:40 PM »

To be fair, I think "art fag" actually precedes the "nounfag" thing started by 4chan. Not that it makes much of a difference.

Dead Milkmen used the term way before 4 chan was ever relevant. Also, I heard 'Drama fag' a pile in highschool, also before 4 chan.
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