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TIGSource ForumsPlayerGamesIGF Drama/Conspiracy Thread
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Glaiel-Gamer
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« Reply #40 on: January 03, 2011, 10:11:22 AM »

Although Neverdaunt is also a very impressive game to me, technically. Miegakure is too, but it was nominated for an award last year (Nuovo? Design? I forget).

miegakure was nominated for design last year. It's pretty technically impressive being 4 dimensional and all (4D texture maps and such) but ya I always tend to wonder about being nominated multiple years in a row.
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« Reply #41 on: January 03, 2011, 10:13:01 AM »

miegakure was nominated for design last year. It's pretty technically impressive being 4 dimensional and all (4D texture maps and such) but ya I always tend to wonder about being nominated multiple years in a row.

It has to get nominated in each dimension.
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« Reply #42 on: January 03, 2011, 10:14:18 AM »

Even if you had a great game that nobody had EVER heard of before, you can still be nominated.
How can you be certain that this is possible, given that it's not what happened?  All but three of the nominees (barring mobile games, which I don't observe) I've seen mentioned around the place quite a bit (mostly on indiegames and rockpapershotgun).  I very much had a feeling that there was "nothing new" when looking over the list.
Please don't take this as a criticism - I'm sure these games have been getting attention because they deserve it; the ones I have played are excellent and well deserving of nomination.  I don't want to impose imaginary rules about what the IGF "should" do.  And thanks for posting here, it's good to get your perspective.
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Glaiel-Gamer
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« Reply #43 on: January 03, 2011, 10:15:41 AM »

miegakure was nominated for design last year. It's pretty technically impressive being 4 dimensional and all (4D texture maps and such) but ya I always tend to wonder about being nominated multiple years in a row.

It has to get nominated in each dimension.

In that case I'm shocked Braid didn't win the 1998 IGF
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« Reply #44 on: January 03, 2011, 10:17:07 AM »

In that case I'm shocked Braid didn't win the 1998 IGF

It will... in the future. O.o
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Glaiel-Gamer
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« Reply #45 on: January 03, 2011, 10:21:19 AM »

In that case I'm shocked Braid didn't win the 1998 IGF

It will... in the future. O.o

fry is mad braid beat him in the igf
« Last Edit: January 03, 2011, 10:29:18 AM by Glaiel-Gamer » Logged
bento_smile
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« Reply #46 on: January 03, 2011, 10:22:11 AM »

As an athiest, I am uncomfortable with this 4d gaming.  Lips Sealed
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MaloEspada
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« Reply #47 on: January 03, 2011, 10:32:10 AM »

i'm far more shocked by the fact that Cave Story got an honorable mention on the audio category.

the game was released with as many audio glitches as you can imagine, and i'm not sure if it has been fixed or not.
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« Reply #48 on: January 03, 2011, 10:36:15 AM »

Maybe they thought that the glitches were part of the technique.
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Zaphos
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« Reply #49 on: January 03, 2011, 10:43:20 AM »

For example, here in Brazil we had a game that became ridicously popular, hitting top 1 download in several brazillian shareware sites, but I never saw that game becoming popular in the US.
Which game?
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« Reply #50 on: January 03, 2011, 10:45:36 AM »

Street Chavez


The game is hilarious. But very culture specific (I don't think Chavez is ridicously popular in the US)
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« Reply #51 on: January 03, 2011, 10:45:50 AM »

Glitches were fixed in the cave story audio.
No one said anything, of course, because good news is not newsworthy  Wink
« Last Edit: January 03, 2011, 10:51:52 AM by Hangedman » Logged

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« Reply #52 on: January 03, 2011, 10:56:00 AM »

without reading the rest of this cuz im in rush etc:

Just wanted to note that now there is really no reason at all for all those people who do bitch about this to bitch about innovation being taken out of the rest of the IGF and being shoehorned into one category. Nidhogg, Spyparty, Desktop Dungeons... if you still complain about that You are now Officially Retarded.
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« Reply #53 on: January 03, 2011, 11:15:00 AM »

Hey jury, what was on your mind when you nominated Cave Story for "Excellence in Visual Art" award?  Cheesy

I can't speak for everyone but I personally pushed for it because it's an attractive and fully realized world, much akin to the wonderfully produced games we all grew up playing.

It is kinda obvious that the nominated are the ones known here on TIG and other near communities, mostly because of media bias, a judge playing Super Crate Box for example probably already heard of it (specially after the nominations for best freeware of the year), Cave Story then is even more obvious, that game was popular, it is REALLY popular among the "indie" community (I mean, "indie" not in the sense of Independent Games), most judges probably even played or finished it.

You appear to lack a solid understanding of exactly how the IGF nomination process works, which is really frustrating because Simon and everyone else behind the IGF has been trying really hard to make it very clear. IGF submissions are nominated because they are a compelling combination of fun and remarkable to the majority of the player constituents. In this case it's a pool of judges and a jury, but this idea typically applies to the gaming public at large whenever games must be voted for in order to win something. The disconnect here is that TIGsource undergoes this type of voting process very differently by voting through their ideals instead of voting for things that are fundamentally fun and pretty. And I'm not just picking on TIGsource; all communities adhered together by related smattering of philosophies will exhibit this kind of behavior. But the IGF body of judge and juries does not operate like this because they are all specifically selected to create a variety. There are certainly ideals at work! But it's washed by the inherent group dynamic. If Super Crate Box (or any other game) got pushed to the top it's because SOMEONE played it and liked it enough to share it and champion it and then a separate group of people deliberated on its merits as finalist. It doesn't matter in the slightest whether any of these people have played it or not or heard of it or not or any other ridiculous factor you theorize might be at work here.

But get for example some random game that noone ever heard from Africa... Unless it is 10 times better than any other games, it won't get nominated for anything, and will be played only by the judges that mandatorily had to play it (each judge receive a set of games to play, and they can play others if wanted, obviously lots of judges would play Super Crate Box, Bit.Trip, etc... but no judge would play that unknown african game).

You're basically stating that the IGF has a nationalist agenda. That is completely asinine and I'm baffled by your ignorance. The judges and juries are made from people all over the world who just want to nominate great games and as a personal suggestion, I would put more effort into thinking about what you're saying before you spew it all over the internet. As soon an amazing game gets submitted to the IGF from the Congo, or Kenya, or Mongolia, or Indonesia, or wherever the fuck else then it will be nominated with the same ease as amazing games from anywhere else get nominated.

But that happen in any competition, so I don't break a sweat over it.

Then quit being so contentious by repeatedly bringing it up.

Cave Story has a relatively nice artwork, and when I say Cave Story I mean the original one. (the Wii version is just a hi-res version, so it's not a remarkable improvement)

It's not "The 2011 Independent Remarkable Improvement Awards". Cave Story is a great looking game to a lot of people and it's really, truly, as simple as that.

There were 391 IGF entrants and 5 nominations for this category. Does this mean that 296 games have completely unremarkable visual art?

Oh my gawd. It doesn't mean that at all. It means that are only 5 finalist slots. Does someone have to smash the entire competition into their binary world view every single year?

I mean, did you guys nominate because it's Cave Story and because you were uncomfortable nominating it for Grand Prize? Did you!?

I saw you back off on this once you read Simon's replay but what "jury statement" are you talking about?
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« Reply #54 on: January 03, 2011, 11:15:48 AM »

Okay, it's time I finally play Desktop Dungeons Embarrassed.

Congratulations to all the nominated.
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« Reply #55 on: January 03, 2011, 12:45:41 PM »

I am not saying that IGF is nationalistic, I am only saying that there are cultural bias related to where the judges came from.

If you take a look in the list of all judges, you will notice several TIG members, and mainly US people...

Then if someone make a game based upon some other culture that has nothing to do with the US (I used Africa as an example, but it may be Asia, South America, or even a state in the US with a significantly different culture) it will obviously will not be appreciated the same.

I am not saying it is impossible, or that exceptions don't exist, we all played Mario, that is a Japanese game, but I am pretty sure that if a Japanese decided to submit Love Plus to IGF, it won't get much far, maybe a nomination into art or nuevo category and that is it...

Love Plus is popular in Japan, but it rely on Japanese-only culture...


Thus it is not a asinine thing, it is just facts, that stuff happen, intentionally or not, if I was judging IGF, I would certainly not get Swedish jokes for example (in fact I don't get lots of TIG jokes, they are totally alien to me), and I would vote a "generic" game more than a non-generic one, and I would certainly vote more for a game with a culture related to mine if the game was good.



And for example, Derek Yu is a judge, he probably know Super Crate Box, I don't know if he really nominated it or not, but supposing he did, and then other jury deliberated if the game was good or not (and it is), it may sound fair (and it sorta is), but if other game is that good too, but came from a totally separated community, that game would not get nominated by anyone (it might, but there are less chance), and thus the deliberation later would not deliberate over that game.


You said that SOMEONE have to champion the game, before other people deliberate on it, what if noone champion a game because the single judge that played it don't found interesting and no other judge bothered to play? Captain Forever for example, the author said that only 1 judge ever played his game, if that judge were me, I would not nominate it. But some other judge maybe would, but that judge maybe never heard of it.



All of the nominated games, I've seen in the press around the IGF, like IndieGames blog, Gamasutra, or tangential things, like TIG, brandonn twitter, DIY gamer, etc... Even the "surprises" I've seen before.

Maybe (but maybe not, I don't know) a really great gem was submitted, but played by only the judges that had to play it, and they don't found interesting... although the judges selected represent a wide variety, they are not all obliged to play all games, thus maybe a RTS-hating judge was the only player of a RTS, or a FPS-hating judge was the only player of a FPS. While maybe a pixel-art hating judge was the one that played Cave Story, but other judges heard of the game and played it too, and passed on.

EDIT: Saying that the judges are from all over the world make no sense, for example the design jury

- Dylan Cuthbert (co-founder and designer at Q-Games, creators of the PixelJunk series of games.)
- George Fan (designer of games including Plants Vs. Zombies and the IGF award winning Insaniquarium.)
- Kyle Gray (designer of Henry Hatsworth in the Puzzling Adventure, co-founder Tomorrow Corporation and Experimental Gameplay Project.)
- Robin Hunicke (designer and producer on games including MySims & Boom Blox, currently working on Journey at thatgamecompany.)
- Gary Penn (creative head at Denki, designer on games including Grand Theft Auto, Crackdown, Quarrel & Denki Blocks.)
- Kris Piotrowski (co-founder & creative director at Capy, creators of games including Critter Crunch, Might and Magic: Clash of Heroes.)
- Petri Purho (designer of the IGF award winning Crayon Physics Deluxe.)
- Margaret Robertson (former editor of Edge Magazine and consultant, now designer and development director at Hide&Seek)
- Adam Saltsman (co-founder of Semi Secret Software, creators of Wurdle, Gravity Hook HD & Canabalt.)
- Andy Schatz (founder of Pocketwatch Games, creators of the IGF nominated Wildlife Tycoon: Venture Africa and the IGF award winning Monaco.)
- Mare Sheppard (co-founder of Metanet Software, creators of N.)
- Randy Smith (co-owner and designer at Tiger Style, creators of Spider: The Secret of Bryce Manor, former designer on the Thief series.)


I don't see there a single non-english or non-germanic name. There are no guy there from Japan, China, Brazil, Korea, Mexico, Russia, etc... etc... etc...

Also, many of these people I've got on twitter, and I added them after seeing communication between themselves or between TIG members. I am not saying there are a TIG conspiracy or anything like that, but it is obvious that you can try hard, but it is not 100% unbiased.


EDIT2: I had not seen Piotrowski a while ago, but the point remains, he is a sort of exception in the list.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2011, 12:58:48 PM by speeder » Logged

mirosurabu
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« Reply #56 on: January 03, 2011, 01:06:56 PM »

Quote
It's not "The 2011 Independent Remarkable Improvement Awards". Cave Story is a great looking game to a lot of people and it's really, truly, as simple as that.

I was talking to the guy I quoted, not to you.

He said "it improved, so it deserved".

I said "but improvement isn't remarkable, the original is almost as good as the Wii version".

Quote
Oh my gawd. It doesn't mean that at all. It means that are only 5 finalist slots. Does someone have to smash the entire competition into their binary world view every single year?

Cave Story has good art, but it's dated and it's cliched. Thus, I wonder if there is really no other game in 400 entries that can take that place instead. I just wondered, I have the right to wonder if there is a bias. I am not sure, I've never said I am.

Quote
I saw you back off on this once you read Simon's replay but what "jury statement" are you talking about?

Simon linked me to this article: http://igf.com/2010/12/2011_independent_games_festiva_5.html

At the bottom it says 'All five Visual Art finalists will be announced -- along with a jury statement detailing the thought process behind selecting its lineup -- in early January 2011.'
« Last Edit: January 03, 2011, 01:19:38 PM by Miroslav Malesevic » Logged
deathtotheweird
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« Reply #57 on: January 03, 2011, 01:20:33 PM »

I found out Alec's true identity:


And Alec, not every one who posted about IGF 'conspiracies' even entered games into the IGF. I don't see why you have to start a thread like this with such a negative tone.

The constant talking down and insults and name calling against people who have concerns about IGF is very ugly and drains any kind of decent discussion that could be had. (alec, glaiel, lith).

fuck this thread
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« Reply #58 on: January 03, 2011, 01:24:49 PM »

EDIT2: I had not seen Piotrowski a while ago, but the point remains, he is a sort of exception in the list.

He's a Canadian anyways Wink and while you deliberately selected the least diverse jury in order to exaggerate your point, I actually agree - I would love to see input from more designers from around the world as part of the jury.  This was the first year for juries for all the categories, so I think you can count on things improving in that regard.

If they don't, then that's certainly something to gripe about.  But the juries are vetted through personal connections with the organizers.  As the organizers (and the corporation that puts on the IGF/GDC) are North American, you're obviously and immediately going to start out with a North American jury.  I'ts just a basic and necessary starting position before moving on to the next logical step.

A lot of the regions you refer to (the Congo, Angola, etc) are so poverty-stricken that access to computers is a new thing for large portions of their population.  There will, by requirement, be some lag between Using Computers For The First Time and Making a Game That Is Competitive On The World Stage.

I think it is somewhat obviously in the IGF's interest to bring in games from around the world for the main awards, but it's also about what games are submitted.  A lot of the games that were submitted to IGF China just weren't submitted to the main IGF.  Very few games from anywhere except North America and Europe are submitted period.

So we can't nominate them, even if we wanted to.  So there's a two-fold problem here - yes we need to continue bringing in international judges, but we also need more international submissions.  If the games aren't there, we can't play them and celebrate them.
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« Reply #59 on: January 03, 2011, 01:25:33 PM »

I'm looking forward to see the feedback from the judges this year. Congrats on all the finalists!


...


What? Why are you staring at me like that? Oh, ok, you win. I'll see what I can contribute to the drama. Ok, let’s see... *scratches head* I’ll just write one I can copy and paste next year.

“I, for once, am displeased to see how the IGF nominees have been selected. It would seem that, from all the IGF_Submission.count() submitted games, the My_Personal_Favorite_Game.Title() title, which I believe offers a better experience than other nominated games such as NominatedGame_Released_ButINeverPlayed.title() or NominatedGame_Unreleased.title(), should have gotten a shot at the best indie game of CurrentIGF.year() . I mean, come on people! It would take an idiot not to see that My_Personal_Favorite_Game.Title() had the best shot. The judges, which I believe are all the same 5 guys that know-each-other-who-judges-the-best-games-while-being-drunk-at-a-local-bar-and-only-selected-the-games-made-by-guys-they-know, should think about on how they review games. No judges with a head on their shoulders would allow My_Personal_Favorite_Game.Title() to go unnoticed.

It’s all a damn popularity contest! Really! How else NominatedGame_IHeardOfACoupleOfTime.title() would actually get a nomination in Rand(IGFCategory.title()! This whole judging process makes me sick. I know CurrentIGFSpokesman.Name() posted in IndieGameFocusedCommunity.Name() saying that it’s not the case but I don’t believe this person. He/She’s is part of the whole judging process, I am certain he/she is simply sitting there, in his/her penthouse, looking at all the money rank up from all the IGF entrants. They took money from hard-working creators with great talent and are just picking their favourite games. My friend, he/she paid a hundred bucks he/she borrowed from his/her parents to submit his/her own game. You know how hard it is it was for him/her, a 16 year old kid, to have enough money to submit My_Personal_Favorite_Game.Title() ? He/She had to do a lot of chores, like cutting grass for two whole weekends!

The IGF makes me sick. Anyway, what makes me even sicker is that these nominated games might be good games but then, with all the IGF hype, they’ll start charging for their games. I won’t even be able to afford these games! I would have to like, cut the grass at least for 5 weekends.  Like I’m going to spend 10 bucks on an indie game! I got an internet connection. I am all-knowing, important and you should listen to my every word.”
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