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[speeder]

@AdamAtomic

I know that, I actually used nations as a easy example, but even inside the same nation there are cultural gaps, like the obvious gap between how TIG and IndieGamer work, and even although both are from US and Europe, there will be a bias (even if slight) toward whatever one has a culture closer to the judges and jury of IGF.

And nope, it was not deliberate my selection of jury, I only opened IGF site and took whatever random list I could from their main page

[AdamAtomic]

And Alec...I don't see why you have to start a thread like this with such a negative tone.  fuck this thread (emphasis mine)

pot kettle??

[Dragonmaw]

A lot of words

I'd like to point out that the IGF is a primarily English-speaking competition. All (or most) of the finalists speak English fluently. The awards ceremony is held in the USA. This, to me, is the only bias: the IGF favors people who speak English. After all, if you don't speak English, you won't know about the competition, how to enter, or what have you. Of course it has a cultural bias. Don't be retarded

Also, you seem to be forgetting IGF China (which is a completely separate competition whose entrants are primarily from the Oceania/Asia area) and TGS Sense of Wonder, and Indiecade... there are more competitions than IGF Prime.

There are flaws in the IGF nomination process. There are flaws in any nomination process. You can't guarantee every game gets equal exposure, since people's attention spans are limited and different games appeal to different people. The games that end up nominated are games that you see bandied about because the developers do the leg work to get their name out there. People play them because they've heard of it. Most people have a natural aversion to trying new things with no frame of reference.

There are far better criticisms of the IGF process than this. This is just... catastrophically idiotic. The more I look at it, the more I find wrong with the basic assumptions and the more annoyed it makes me.

[fish]

let's look at the last 5 grand prize winners, and their countries of origin, shall we?

2010: Monaco - USA
2009: Blueberry Garden - SWEDEN
2008: Crayon Physics Deluxe - FINLAND
2007: Aquaria - USA + CANADA
2006: Darwinia - UK

last 5 visual art winner and their countries of origin

2010: Limbo - DENMARK
2009: Machinarium - CZECH REPUBLIC
2008: Fez - CANADA
2007: Castle Crashers - USA
2006: Darwinia - UK

last 5 excellence in audio winners and their country of origin

2010: Closure - USA
2009: BrainPipe - USA
2008: Audiosurf - USA
2007: Everyday Shooter - CANADA
2006: Weird Worlds: Return to Infinite Space - USA

last 5 innovation award winners and their country of origin

2010: Tuning - SWEDEN
2009: Between - USA
2008: World of Goo - USA
2007: Everyday Shooter - CANADA
2006: Braid - USA

last 5 technical excellence winners and their country of origin

2010: Limbo - DENMARK
2009: Cortex Command - USA
2008: World of Goo - USA
2007: Bang! Howdy - USA
2006: Darwinia - UK

USA, CANADA, UK, DENMARK, CZECH REPUBLIC, SWEDEN and FINLAND

that's 7 different countries.
yes, USA had a majority of winners, but that makes sense to me, given how this is an AMERICAN EVENT. THAT TAKES PLACE IN AMERICA.
(and im only looking at WINNERS here, not nominees)
as the IGF grows every year, you WILL notice that it is indeed becoming more and more international over time.

[fish]

so you know... fuck off.

[speeder]

A lot of words

I'd like to point out that the IGF is a primarily English-speaking competition. All (or most) of the finalists speak English fluently. The awards ceremony is held in the USA. This, to me, is the only bias: the IGF favors people who speak English. After all, if you don't speak English, you won't know about the competition, how to enter, or what have you. Of course it has a cultural bias. Don't be retarded

Also, you seem to be forgetting IGF China (which is a completely separate competition whose entrants are primarily from the Oceania/Asia area) and TGS Sense of Wonder, and Indiecade... there are more competitions than IGF Prime.

There are flaws in the IGF nomination process. There are flaws in any nomination process. You can't guarantee every game gets equal exposure, since people's attention spans are limited and different games appeal to different people. The games that end up nominated are games that you see bandied about because the developers do the leg work to get their name out there. People play them because they've heard of it. Most people have a natural aversion to trying new things with no frame of reference.

There are far better criticisms of the IGF process than this. This is just... catastrophically idiotic. The more I look at it, the more I find wrong with the basic assumptions and the more annoyed it makes me.

And I stated exactly that! Why are you upset?

I don't know why people got upset because I stated the obvious...

[eva_]

let's look at the last 5 grand prize winners, and their countries of origin, shall we?

2010: Monaco - USA
2009: Blueberry Garden - SWEDEN
2008: Crayon Physics Deluxe - FINLAND
2007: Aquaria - USA + CANADA
2006: Darwinia - UK

last 5 visual art winner and their countries of origin

2010: Limbo - DENMARK
2009: Machinarium - CZECH REPUBLIC
2008: Fez - CANADA
2007: Castle Crashers - USA
2006: Darwinia - UK

last 5 excellence in audio winners and their country of origin

2010: Closure - USA
2009: BrainPipe - USA
2008: Audiosurf - USA
2007: Everyday Shooter - CANADA
2006: Weird Worlds: Return to Infinite Space - USA

last 5 innovation award winners and their country of origin

2010: Tuning - SWEDEN
2009: Between - USA
2008: World of Goo - USA
2007: Everyday Shooter - CANADA
2006: Braid - USA

last 5 technical excellence winners and their country of origin

2010: Limbo - DENMARK
2009: Cortex Command - USA
2008: World of Goo - USA
2007: Bang! Howdy - USA
2006: Darwinia - UK

USA, CANADA, UK, DENMARK, CZECH REPUBLIC, SWEDEN and FINLAND

that's 7 different countries.
yes, USA had a majority of winners, but that makes sense to me, given how this is an AMERICAN EVENT. THAT TAKES PLACE IN AMERICA.
(and im only looking at WINNERS here, not nominees)
as the IGF grows every year, you WILL notice that it is indeed becoming more and more international over time.

all west, dont kno wat ur tryin to prove

[mirosurabu]

There is a cultural gap between TIGSource, Indie Gamer and Kongregate communities. There are intersections, but the gaps remain huge. This is evident when these communities try to participate in an event like IGF. I think that's what Speeder is talking about.

[AdamAtomic]

There are far better criticisms of the IGF process than this. This is just... catastrophically idiotic. The more I look at it, the more I find wrong with the basic assumptions and the more annoyed it makes me.

Uhhh exaggerate much?  Questioning the diversity of an almost purely North American award that definitely claims, outwardly, to be the defining global award for indie games is "catastrophically idiotic??"  If you say so, chief.  Would be better to use less vitriol and more logic in the future though.

@AdamAtomic

I know that, I actually used nations as a easy example, but even inside the same nation there are cultural gaps, like the obvious gap between how TIG and IndieGamer work, and even although both are from US and Europe, there will be a bias (even if slight) toward whatever one has a culture closer to the judges and jury of IGF.

And nope, it was not deliberate my selection of jury, I only opened IGF site and took whatever random list I could from their main page

for sure, and necessarily i think - and i don't know for sure if the diversity of the juries will continue to improve or not, but I think as the diversity of indie devs continues to improve, the juries can't help but follow suit.  but i think there's gonna be a mandatory adjustment period between the creation of the juries and the full cultural spectrum of the world's indie games being represented.  if there are say 2 amazing devs from Tanzania and 20 from Canada, if the 2 Tanzanian devs decide they are too busy to be on the jury, even though they were invited the resulting jury will look racistly Canadian, even though it's mainly a factor of time/familiarity/popularity of game dev as a culture within the country...

dangerously close to rambling here now.  i guess my point is that i agree, diversity is a problem and will continue to be, as it is in many fields, but i am very hopeful and optimistic about what the future holds for indie games in that regard!

[Dragonmaw]

Uhhh exaggerate much?  Questioning the diversity of an almost purely North American award that definitely claims, outwardly, to be the defining global award for indie games is "catastrophically idiotic??"  If you say so, chief.  Would be better to use less vitriol and more logic in the future though.

Hey great job cherry-picking a single phrase, failing to address my other points, and then passive-aggressively insulting me.

[eva_]

adamatomic always does that. read his terrible articles on game design

[speeder]

Erm...

I was making a argument about a inherent bias... not about if anyone deserved or not to win, or if anyone here is better or not, can you people please stop slinging shit at each other? (and at me too...)

[s0]

I love how this thread is living up to its title.

ON TOPIC: I don't care about the IGF.

[AdamAtomic]

Uhhh exaggerate much?  Questioning the diversity of an almost purely North American award that definitely claims, outwardly, to be the defining global award for indie games is "catastrophically idiotic??"  If you say so, chief.  Would be better to use less vitriol and more logic in the future though.

Hey great job cherry-picking a single phrase, failing to address my other points, and then passive-aggressively insulting me.

Sorry, should I have cherry-picked this one instead?

Don't be retarded

I didn't insult you, passively-aggressively or otherwise.  Your response was rude and unjustified, I pointed out that it was rude and unjustified.  If you find that offensive, don't make rude and unjustified posts.

[eva_]

ur rude and unjustified

[Dragonmaw]

I didn't insult you, passively-aggressively or otherwise.  Your response was rude and unjustified, I pointed out that it was rude and unjustified.  If you find that offensive, don't make rude and unjustified posts.

Uhhh exaggerate much?  Questioning the diversity of an almost purely North American award that definitely claims, outwardly, to be the defining global award for indie games is "catastrophically idiotic??"  If you say so, chief.  Would be better to use less vitriol and more logic in the future though.

Fuck off. I'm just not even going to bother trying to talk sense into you, since you obviously don't give a fuck about what I actually said. You only care that somebody called somebody dumb. Oh no mean words (((((

Man this thread sure is accurate to its name. I should've known better than to descend into this bullshit again.

[moi]

Making a festival a calling it "the indie whatever" is super gay in the first place and deserves endless bashing end of topic

[Blademasterbobo]

Who cares if it's rude. Now if someone is rude their point is automatically invalidated? I'm callin' shenanigans. (Unless it's like... icycalm levels of vitriol, which it wasn't even close to.) Pretty much agree with Dragonmaw here... and the cultural imbalance is also at least somewhat the fault of whoever is makin' the games in other countries. As far as the judging imbalance goes, that would be hard to correct, especially with the new judging format. A language barrier there would cause a lot of problems, since they're supposed to be communicating about the games a lot.

[OneMoreGo]

Just enjoyed going through all the videos   ,there were a few I hadn't seen before.

[AdamAtomic]

Who cares if it's rude. Now if someone is rude their point is automatically invalidated?

Of course not.  But if you have a point to make, and you attempt to discredit the person you're opposing by questioning their intelligence, and provide no rational justification for your perspective, then no, the point is not valid.  Case in point:

herp derp

Fuck off. I'm just not even going to bother trying to talk sense into you, since you obviously don't give a fuck about what I actually said. You only care that somebody called somebody dumb. Oh no mean words (((((

Man this thread sure is accurate to its name. I should've known better than to descend into this bullshit again.