next »

[Dragonmaw]

Of course not.  But if you have a point to make, and you attempt to discredit the person you're opposing by questioning their intelligence, and provide no rational justification for your perspective, then no, the point is not valid.  Case in point:

Could you have missed the mark more? I don't think so!
 

[eva_]

adam, arent you the guy who justified ur bashing on criticism against ur article with a "HEY THEY CANT TAK ME SERIOUSLY! I HAV A PICTURE OF SOME DOOM COMIC!"

[NotHere]

It’s all a damn popularity contest! Really! How else NominatedGame_IHeardOfACoupleOfTime.title() would actually get a nomination in Rand(IGFCategory.title()! This whole judging process makes me sick. I know CurrentIGFSpokesman.Name() posted in IndieGameFocusedCommunity.Name() saying that it’s not the case but I don’t believe this person. He/She’s is part of the whole judging process, I am certain he/she is simply sitting there, in his/her penthouse, looking at all the money rank up from all the IGF entrants. They took money from hard-working creators with great talent and are just picking their favourite games. My friend, he/she paid a hundred bucks he/she borrowed from his/her parents to submit his/her own game. You know how hard it is it was for him/her, a 16 year old kid, to have enough money to submit My_Personal_Favorite_Game.Title() ? He/She had to do a lot of chores, like cutting grass for two whole weekends!

You didn't close the parenthesis for the Rand function =[

What's going to happen now?!?!?!111///

[Blademasterbobo]

Of course not.  But if you have a point to make, and you attempt to discredit the person you're opposing by questioning their intelligence, and provide no rational justification for your perspective, then no, the point is not valid.  Case in point:

what about all of the other points he made then? he called speeder's argument stupid but he did say some other things 

[Riley Adams]

It's obviously all a Tigsource/Illuminati conspiracy anyways, why else would minecraft be a finalist in 3 categories?

[mirosurabu]

@NotHere:

That's a metaphor for how faulty these guys' thinking is.

Still, it's almost like a strawman, because seriously, I didn't see unjustified and rude criticism yet.

[Dragonmaw]

It's obviously all a Tigsource/Illuminati conspiracy anyways, why else would minecraft be a finalist in 3 categories?

I was a part of this conspiracy.

(Minecraft was one of my judging assignments)

[Glaiel-Gamer]

You didn't close the parenthesis for the Rand function =[

What's going to happen now?!?!?!111///

this thread is now /b/ until someone closes the rand function.


OH THE HORROR

[AdamAtomic]

I'd like to point out that the IGF is a primarily English-speaking competition. All (or most) of the finalists speak English fluently. The awards ceremony is held in the USA. This, to me, is the only bias: the IGF favors people who speak English.  After all, if you don't speak English, you won't know about the competition, how to enter, or what have you. Of course it has a cultural bias. Don't be retarded

While there are many exceptions, and this trend is changing, yes, by these definitions, the IGF "favors people who speak English."  However, you just summed up speeder's posts, attributed the point to yourself, and then called him a retard for posting it.  This is confusing, unnecessary, and a little revelatory.

Also, you seem to be forgetting IGF China (which is a completely separate competition whose entrants are primarily from the Oceania/Asia area) and TGS Sense of Wonder, and Indiecade... there are more competitions than IGF Prime.

Please explain what this has to do with the IGF.

There are flaws in the IGF nomination process. There are flaws in any nomination process. You can't guarantee every game gets equal exposure, since people's attention spans are limited and different games appeal to different people. The games that end up nominated are games that you see bandied about because the developers do the leg work to get their name out there. People play them because they've heard of it. Most people have a natural aversion to trying new things with no frame of reference.

This has no bearing on the IGF.  Please read any of the posts or articles from the organizers about how IGF judging has worked both in the past and especially this year, including posts made in this thread within the last few hours.  Juries both played and championed games with 2 or fewer votes from the judges, and many of these games received honorable mentions.  None of the decisions were made based on developers doing "leg work."

EDIT: Wait, you were a judge and these are your "better criticisms"?  I am completely confused now.

There are far better criticisms of the IGF process than this. This is just... catastrophically idiotic. The more I look at it, the more I find wrong with the basic assumptions and the more annoyed it makes me.

Like what?  The things you listed in the previous paragraph that you made up without bothering to do any research?

I apologize, I did not realize you wanted me to do a point-by-point rebuttal, otherwise I would have done it on the first reply.  I hope that you understand what I mean by suggesting that you post with less vitriol and more logic in the future.  I would like your posts to be both less mean and make more sense.  They would be more effective and add more to the community that way.

[Dragonmaw]

Hey more passive aggression :V This time mixed with EVEN MORE missing the point.

Here, I'll explain it, since it seems it was too subtle of a comment (fucking how).

The point of my comment was that speeder's argument is nonsensical. Speeder states that IGF has a American/European bias (off the mark, it has an English-language one), that this is harmful in some fashion, that the judging process is inherently flawed as it favors games which have been advertised and discussed beforehand, and that other countries, such as Africa or Asia, should receive representation.

I perceive this argument to being fucking stupid. The reason why is twofold. First, the IGF is not the only competition revolving around indie games, it is simply the oldest. IGF Prime is English-centric because it was founded by an English-speaking organization in an English-speaking country by English-speaking people. Does this bias reflect negatively on the competition? No. An English-speaking competition getting primarily American and European games and organizers is neither out of the ordinary or particularly harmful to the independent discourse.

The rebuttal to this assertion is that there are a number of other independent game competitions and showcases. I named, specifically, three which are not based in the US: Sense of Wonder, IGF China (which is more like IGF Oceania), and Indiecade. These competitions fulfill a niche that IGF Prime does not, namely: games from the other primarily developed portion of the world (Asia).

As for Africa and South America, the previous statements by other thread contributors is accurate. They are not particularly to a place where indie gaming is widespread, and there are not many developers there focused on producing high-quality games, much less international high quality games. However, There are exceptions, such as (I believe) Desktop Dungeons and Zeno Clash.

In short, you completely missed the context of my point, proceeded to lambast me for called an argument stupid, and then continued to ride on your high horse, handing down judgements. Now that I've explained the full context and points (something I would not have expected to have to do, since I figured they were pretty obvious), stop with the bullshit.

[Blademasterbobo]

Hey more passive aggression :V This time mixed with EVEN MORE missing the point.

durp

Instead of accusing Adam of passive aggressive behavior, similar to how he called you rude, why don't you... address why you think these things ? (Who cares that you called speeder an idiot, doesn't invalidate your points... who cares that he called you vitriolic and rude, doesn't invalidate his) This is how conversation.

[Zaphos]

This discussion seems incredibly vitriolic for people who fundamentally don't seem to even disagree that much ...

I mean speeder said basically "there is some inevitable cultural bias in a US-based awards ceremony," and most seemed to agree with that.
Fish said "but it's not that bad" and Dragonmaw said "and there are other ceremonies like IGF Asia and SoWN to serve other cultural focuses," which speeder agreed with.
Adam said "but it's something we could be aware of and improve in the future with a more international judging pool" which doesn't sound that controversial.

(Sorry if I misrepresented anyone with the paraphrasing, let me know if I did)

Anyway ... aside from who was rude to whom, where is the actual disagreement at this point?

[AdamAtomic]

Hey more passive aggression :V This time mixed with EVEN MORE missing the point.

I don't think "passive aggression" means what you think it means.  Passive aggression is privately attacking people because you have problems with confrontation, or using language that SOUNDS polite to be mean/pushy.

I am confronting you publicly, and using language that sounds mean and pushy in order to try to be nice and direct.  If this is anything it's plain old aggression, or "tough love" maybe.

PS - this is a Home Movies reference

PPS - dammit it's not in that clip, oh well.  it's definitely from that episode.

[eva_]

lol

[ella guro]

And Alec, not every one who posted about IGF 'conspiracies' even entered games into the IGF. I don't see why you have to start a thread like this with such a negative tone.

The constant talking down and insults and name calling against people who have concerns about IGF is very ugly and drains any kind of decent discussion that could be had. (alec, glaiel, lith).

This was pretty much my opinion upon seeing this thread. It seems totally unnecessary and a bit of a "fuck you" towards people with legitimate concerns about the IGF. It's also flamebait, and an implicit acknowledgement that Alec doesn't really care about what dissenters might think about this anyway so he might as well just see it play out. At least, that's how I'm reading it, not being aware of much of the history behind this.

And I know that there are a lot of crazies who say that this is a scam or TIGs is a scam or whatever, but those people can be easily ignored. There is a clear separation between those people and people like Speeder in this thread who bring up valid concerns that many people don't seem to want to acknowledge. In general, I think there needs to be more of an interest in giving people a fair chance to talk about these things without a blanket dismissal.

[Alec]

This thread has exceeded my expectations.

[eva_]

This thread has exceeded my expectations.

kool story troll, close this shit thers a real igf thread

[Blademasterbobo]

This thread has exceeded my expectations.

hurp

*makes a thread setting a negative tone with the first post*

Oh hey guis look at all the hatred I WAS RIGHT  

[Jrsquee]

aquaria sux

[Dragonmaw]

Hey more passive aggression :V This time mixed with EVEN MORE missing the point.

I don't think "passive aggression" means what you think it means.  Passive aggression is privately attacking people because you have problems with confrontation, or using language that SOUNDS polite to be mean/pushy.

I am confronting you publicly, and using language that sounds mean and pushy in order to try to be nice and direct.  If this is anything it's plain old aggression, or "tough love" maybe.

PS - this is a Home Movies reference

PPS - dammit it's not in that clip, oh well.  it's definitely from that episode.

"I hope that you understand what I mean by suggesting that you post with less vitriol and more logic in the future.  I would like your posts to be both less mean and make more sense.  They would be more effective and add more to the community that way."

This should be a quote in the dictionary next to passive aggression. This isn't "tough love," it's taking the high horse and using nice language in a way to make yourself seem superior and less confrontational. Once again, fuck off.

I'm going to Esq's thread it's not obvious flamebait and doesn't have little baby men (except eva).

hey and go re-read my post i edited it to specifically point out why you are dumb