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[Fallsburg]

giving people things for preordering the game and other perks is different from begging; begging is when you get nothing in return

also in case anyone forgot, we're in a recession right now, with the highest rate of unemployment since the great depression. getting a job isn't a trivial thing; my mother and brother were both laid off and have been looking for jobs for over two years and have been unable to find anything except temp stuff, so saying 'just get a job' is insensitive considering the working conditions right now and how few positions are open

another consideration is that even if you have a job making a game requires non-trivial money, particularly if you're paying for art assets or development kits. braid and super meat boy for instance could not have been funded just based on normal jobs (braid cost 180,000$ to create, super meat boy almost that much).

My understanding about the Braid $180,000 is that it assigns a value for his time. i.e. He could easily have made $150,000 during the 3 years that it took him to make it, so he added that into how much it cost.  So it isn't strictly the cost, but rather a combination of actual costs and opportunity cost.  This could just be apocryphal, since I am unable to find verification (although, without Jon Blow opening up his books there really is no way to get verification either way).

As to the word choice of begging.  
Begging - "To request a donation in a supplicating manner"
Donation - "An act or instance of presenting something as a gift, grant, or contribution"
They are requesting contributions to fund their work, i.e. they are begging.
Like I said, begging has a certain connotation, but that IS what is going on here.  The definition of begging doesn't state that they can't offer something in return, that's just the baggage that you bring into your understanding of the word.  I'm not using begging in a pejorative manner, as I honestly believe it to be the best word choice for this.

As for the "get a job" comments, you are right.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

regarding super meat boy and braid, a lot of money went into xbla dev kits (i think that's about $10,000) and microsoft testing (which i have heard costs even more than the dev kits). not to mention that both took about 3-4 years to complete, which means a lot of costs in terms of rent and food for the developers.

regarding begging, i think the key term is *supplicating* -- i don't see any kickstarter or 8bit or indiegogo projects asking in those terms (e.g. 'please! please!). it's 'donate if you want, and you get this stuff in return for various amonts'. if it's 'begging', so is what wikipedia does each year when it asks people to donate to fund the site, and so is what PBS does each year when it asks people to donate to help pay for the operating costs of that television channel (and those two examples don't even give much in return: nothing in the case of wikipedia, a tote bag or something in the case of PBS).

[valis]

if it's 'begging', so is what wikipedia does each year

Hyperbole.   Threadspace Hyperbol (anyone play that one?)

Comparing these trivial begs to Wikipedia is ridiculous.  Wikipedia provides a service of inestimable value to hundreds of millions of people every year.

I guess this doesn't matter, and perhaps my irritation at it is not justified.

Whatever.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

i think games provide a much greater service to the world than wikipedia ever can, but that's not something that's easily shown.  wikipedia is just information, games are a huge part of culture. i think it's a much better use of money to encourage more games being made than to encourage more wikipedia articles being written. why do you believe games don't provide as much value as wikipedia does?

[eva]

dont be dum its a single game vs wikipedia 

[eva]

glhf

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

yeah but is there really a difference if you're funding devs individually vs funding wikipedia as a whole? considering you make up a larger % of one dev's budget it balances out. the money you donate to wikipedia pays for a much smaller percent of operating costs.

[Desert Dog]

I'm just curious, you've talked a lot about how you need art, and thus, need money, but what have you actually tried in the art range? I mean, aren't you trying to sell your game?

Why couldn't you get an artist/s to complete the work, and give them a percentage of profits?

I'm just thinking, it's great your devving a game and all, and best of luck with that, but it seems like your wanting other people to 'pay' for your artists, so you don't have to split profits with them. Which isn't necessarily bad, but I just don't like the sound of it.

So it'd be great if you could explain why you couldn't do that.(find artist&just split profits)

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

artists almost never work for a % and no money upfront, and those that do are typically lower quality artists without training or experience. have you ever tried to get a good artist just on the basis of 'we'll split the profits when the game is done'? it's nearly impossible.

[Desert Dog]

Ah, o.k, that's what I was interested in hearing. No, I haven't worked with an artist on that basis.. only worked with only a few artists before on (small) freeware projects, and only 1 of them would I actually call a good artist.

That being said, I'm still interested in hearing if he tried contacting anyone at all.

I'm not opposed to donations for projects, lets get that straight. Its a practical way for a user to support&show appreciation to a dev&the software he creates.

Whether it should be a tasteful page on his own website, or a forum post is neither here nor there for me, although I 'get' why some people would call it begging.

I'm just interested in hearing his experience with artists, since that is what he's specifically needing the money for. I'm not in an all too different situation from him (I think a lot of devs are!)

[BrixxieBee]

i think games provide a much greater service to the world than wikipedia ever can, but that's not something that's easily shown.

To everyone who is complaining, you have an OPTION here to give money to GAMES. What you value is up to you. If you value Wikipedia, donate to it, if you value games, donate to them. If you value your money, keep it. Both this game and Wikipedia give away their services for free. There's nothing wrong with an avenue to give back to someone who spends their freetime working on something they're simply GIVING away for other people's enjoyment.

I'm just curious, you've talked a lot about how you need art, and thus, need money, but what have you actually tried in the art range? I mean, aren't you trying to sell your game?

Again, no. We're kindly giving our game away to the public. Hundreds and thousands of man hours have already gone into it and we aren't asking anything for the final project. So the choice is up to you, donate or not, complain about it or not, but it only shows your worst side when you're complaining about developers who spend an uncountable amount of their free time to ultimately give their game to the community for free out of simple passion for making games.

[deathtotheweird]

people are weird 

why do you have to be so condescending valis?

this is a thread about moldering on 8bit funding and not on your thoughts of fan-supported development (or whatever you want to call it). so shut the fuck up.

[Desert Dog]

Again, no. We're kindly giving our game away to the public. Hundreds and thousands of man hours have already gone into it and we aren't asking anything for the final project. So the choice is up to you, donate or not, complain about it or not, but it only shows your worst side when you're complaining about developers who spend an uncountable amount of their free time to ultimately give their game to the community for free out of simple passion for making games.

Now, that's an entirely different story.  Should have said that right in the first post.. asking people to contribute to getting quality art for a freeware game that everyone can enjoy is a heck of a lot different from asking for funds for a commercial project which will profit you directly. [Again, not that I think that is necessarily a bad thing]

I presume you were addressing other people in general, because I wasn't complaining, merely interested in your sitatuation. I, too, as well as most of the people here, are dev's who spend 'uncountable' amounts of time working on games, often of which are released for free.

Best of luck with your game,
~DD

[valis]

i think games provide a much greater service to the world than wikipedia ever ca

Ahahahaha!

That's hilarious.

Cluebat: People in developing countries who are too poor to have ever played video games use wikipedia in their schools, sometimes printing articles and using them as textbooks.

To compare Wikipedia to games, which we all love very much and which are near and dear to my heart and have been for 30 years, is frankly just ludicrous.  Tell me another one as good as that, I want to laugh again.

[Christian Knudsen]

Cluebat: People in developing countries who are too poor to have ever played video games use wikipedia in their schools, sometimes printing articles and using them as textbooks.

Not that I necessarily agree with Paul, but he said games, not video games (this thread is of course about video games, though). I think games in general do mean a lot to people in developing countries. Just think of how often you see impoverished young boys in developing countries playing football. I'd imagine that game means more to them than Wikipedia in bringing joy and fun into their lives. But you could definitely argue that Wikipedia and the free information it presents to these people means more from an educational point of view.

[valis]

Right, and this being a dirt-soccer board, I can totally see the relevancy.  Pedantic much?

This is way off subject. 

Suggestion: Go to a major highway offramp with a cardboard sign.  "Will Code Games for Pre-Order Money." 

[Christian Knudsen]

Being that dirt-soccer is a game and Paul seemed to be talking about games in general, it was relevant to Paul's comment. But you're right, talking about games in general is somewhat off-topic.

[Theon]

Now, that's an entirely different story.  Should have said that right in the first post.. asking people to contribute to getting quality art for a freeware game that everyone can enjoy is a heck of a lot different from asking for funds for a commercial project which will profit you directly.

This.

I'm sorry for my harsh comment earlier; I was under the impression that you begging for money to fund a comercial project (as it seems is common on 8bitfunding). This is something entirely different, and I support it :]

That said, I also like the content I've seen so far. I really like the Touhou-like platforming gameplay. I'd suggest some death animations, though ;p

[Danmark]

To compare Wikipedia to games, which we all love very much and which are near and dear to my heart and have been for 30 years, is frankly just ludicrous.

Fuck this noise. Asserting that greater service is provided by a single instance of a very specific kind of document than by an entire medium, one that is the formal expression of an activity biologically fundamental to our species and its distant ancestors... that's the dumbest thing I've heard in months. It's not even funny.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

Ahahahaha!

That's hilarious.

Cluebat: People in developing countries who are too poor to have ever played video games use wikipedia in their schools, sometimes printing articles and using them as textbooks.

To compare Wikipedia to games, which we all love very much and which are near and dear to my heart and have been for 30 years, is frankly just ludicrous.  Tell me another one as good as that, I want to laugh again.

your disrespect is what i find funny personally, but for those who may actually believe you:

people in developing countries play videogames every day. i've friends who live in indonesia and china who are the biggest gamers you'll ever know. there's pretty much nobody on earth who is both going to school and is 'too poor to play videogames', because if you are going to school you are wealthy enough to have access to cell phones and internet cafes. even in africa they have people who rent out videogame systems to villages for a small charge (i've even funded such ventures on kiva). anyone who thinks developing countries are too poor to play videogames has never actually been to one or doesn't actually know anyone in one.

(besides which, i said games, not videogames -- videogames are a subset of games.)

wikipedia is just an encyclopedia, one among many, not the first and not the best (it's actually one of the worse ones). its claim to fame is that it's free and large, but it's not particularly well written, it has a lot of mistakes (many intentional vandalism, many point of view issues with companies and individuals editing their own articles, many just typos because it has no paid editors). it's a pretty interesting site but in no way is it more valuable than an *entire media of entertainment* which goes back thousands of years.

basically what veracity said:

Fuck this noise. Asserting that greater service is provided by a single instance of a very specific kind of document than by an entire medium, one that is the formal expression of an activity biologically fundamental to our species and its distant ancestors... that's the dumbest thing I've heard in months. It's not even funny.

really -- a single encyclopedia is more important than all games, or even all videogames? how can anyone actually believe that? next you'll be saying that gone with the wind (a single movie) is more important than all novels ever written.