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[Alex May]

Ultimately, just chillax

Ultimately, don't insult people you don't know under your real name, bucko.

And this is just fucked up. You're the one being insulting on here, not John.

[valis]

You've been a massive dick hole about this since the beginning vallis

Apparently when we hear opinions we don't agree with, we call the people expressing them "assholes" and "massive dick holes."  

If you think your use of profanity makes me think you're a tough guy, you're really barking up the wrong tree with that.

I reiterate the suggestion to just panhandle.  It's a half-serious suggestion-- panhandlers, if polite and friendly, can easily walk home with $100 cash on a good day, if not more.  It's surely a better suggestion than asking for art handouts which pretty much just doesn't happen.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

i don't understand why we shouldn't insult people under our real names. i do it all the time. here's an example: "valis is dum" -paul eres

[Nate Kling]

I reiterate the suggestion to just panhandle.  It's a half-serious suggestion-- panhandlers, if polite and friendly, can easily walk home with $100 cash on a good day, if not more.  It's surely a better suggestion than asking for art handouts which pretty much just doesn't happen.

If anybody making games on this site was interested in making a good amount of money in the easiest way possible nobody would be making indie games.  This is not just about "making money" he is trying to raise money to aid him in creating something for people to enjoy.

[valis]

This is not just about "making money" he is trying to raise money to aid him in creating something for people to enjoy.

I'm aware of that.  I was suggesting that he panhandle on the street for money in order to hire a professional artist.

[moi]

Valis the internet tough guy

[valis]

Wow, people here are really mad about what I've said, what with all the "dickhole" and "asshole" and stuff.

Why is that?  Is it unacceptable to suggest that people save money and do things themselves instead of begging for trivial sums?

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

of course it's not unacceptable, you're free to do it. it's just stupid, because the assumptions behind it are intentionally ill-informed and you refuse to correct those assumptions even when people have corrected them for you.

i.e.

a) 6500$ isn't trivial. by your own estimations it'd take him more than two months of begging on the streets, probably 8-12 hours a day, to earn that much. if something takes that much work, how is it trivial? most people in the world earn far less than $6500 a year.

b) he's not begging for it, he's offering a service in exchange for it: preorders of his game. if you like the look of his game and want to pre-order it, do so, if you don't, don't. it's a free exchange in the marketplace. if you don't like what you get and don't feel it's worth the price, that's one thing, but to call it begging is just untrue.

[valis]

Actually, you haven't "corrected" my "assumptions."  What I think about this subject still stands and in fact your rude, abrasive and poorly-expressed attitude is only reinforcing my opinion on the subject.

What about jobs?  Whatever happened to getting a job and saving cash?  Programming is still a rather high-buck skill, even today after years of devaluation.

to call it begging is just untrue.

Sure sounds like it to me.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

if this is begging, mcdonalds commercials are begging too (begging for money in exchange for their burgers), and all of business, all of capitalism is begging

[valis]

mcdonalds commercials are begging too (begging for money in exchange for their burgers)

Except that that's an incorrect analogy.  There's a difference between selling a finished product and begging the community for money in order to finish something.  Begging to a group of other people who are, increasingly, doing the same thing is the snake that eats its own tail.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

ah, so only everyone who seeks funding for anything that isn't finished or complete in exchange for something when it's finished is begging -- this includes, for instance, anyone who goes to a movie producer to submit their movie proposal, or anyone who goes to a venture capitalist to seek out funding for their business, or anyone who applies for a scientific grant for money required to fund their study, or anyone who gets an advance payment from a publisher on a draft of their unfinished novel, etc. etc. -- all beggars

i do agree about the community not being the best source to fund these projects though, and i mentioned such earlier in this thread. but that's irrelevant to whether it's begging or not.

[valis]

ah, so only everyone who seeks funding for anything that isn't finished or complete in exchange for something when it's finished is begging

I'm not talking about them.  Or about mcdonalds.

I'm talking about this.

i do agree about the community not being the best source to fund these projects though

That was easy.

that's irrelevant to whether it's begging or not.

Actually what was irrelevant were the comments about mcdonalds, movies, venture capitalists, scientific grants, etc.

[Nate Kling]

ah, so only everyone who seeks funding for anything that isn't finished or complete in exchange for something when it's finished is begging

I'm not talking about them.  Or about mcdonalds.

I'm talking about this.

Paul mentioned them because they are no different than what people using this service are doing.  He mentioned them because they are all widely accepted methods of getting money for projects that we would assume that you view as acceptable as well.  Could you explain how this case(8bit funding) is different than mcdonalds, movies, venture capitalists, scientific grants, etc. ?

[valis]

Could you explain how this case(8bit funding) is different than mcdonalds, movies, venture capitalists, scientific grants, etc. ?

Which is it more similar to:

* Physicists asking for money to build the Large Hadron Collider

* Someone at a highway offramp with a "Will Work for Food" sign

If you really don't see how this and buying a Big Mac is different I really don't know how I can help you.

[Nate Kling]

The difference is what you deem to be legitimate.  There is no difference other than presentation and preference.  You are assuming that people would enjoy bigger budget games more than low budget games.  So the only difference here is that you do not deem it worthy for support.

If a physicist was on 8bit asking for support for research would that be begging?  If so then clearly it is only the presentation that is insufficient.  If it's not begging then it's clear that your belief in how much you value the product determines if asking for support is begging.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

exactly what nate kling said: the only distinction you are making between people asking for money to fund projects and this person which makes this person begging and which makes those people not beggars is that you don't like this particular project and feel it's of low quality. that's your appraisal of the project, but i don't see how its quality is relevant to whether it's begging or not.

so basically you are saying that if i wanted funding to fund my indie documentary on how different people stir tea all across the world and wanted money to pay for my travel expenses, that'd be begging, but if i were a professor and wanted funding for a study on whether tea reduces the incidence of liver cancer it wouldn't be begging? just because one project is better than the other?

[Alex May]

trollolololol

[tametick]

Can one of the moderators lock this thread now?

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

i don't see why an entire thread has to be locked just cause of one guy: that'd be unfair to the OP, since it'd mean that fewer people would see his funding request.