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[Chris Pavia]

In my experience, if you try to please everyone, you end up pleasing no one.

The best I can do as a Great Artist™ is make the art I want to make and hope other people enjoy it.

If you know good design, you don't have to hope. That's kind of the whole point I'm making. Games like Spelunky, Super Meat Boy, and plenty of others have successfully managed to please both their creator and thousands, if not millions of others.

But since I don't expect to change your mind on the subject, you just keep on doin what works for you...

[Chris Pavia]

Oh, I forgot to second Flow: the optimal experience which got mentioned earlier. It's not the most fun read, but the analysis of flow and how it is obtained is extremely useful in the context of games.

[Fallsburg]

About the books, I suggest "Level up - the guide to great video games design" by Scott Rogers, which is great for newbies and proffesionals. It starts and the ground with basics and goes trough each section slowly but efficently and author didn't forget to put some jokes in. I haven't read it trough, just firs 60 pages or so and it's great.

I anti-suggest "Level up - the guide to great video games design" by Scott Rogers.  So much of the book is filler and he repeats examples over and over.
Here are some examples of things in the book (paraphrase):
Some games allow the player to attack. Attacks can be short, medium, or long ranged.

Games have a camera. It can be different.

A lot of games have jumping. Jumping is fun, walking is boring.

There are a few good things in the book, but by and large it is written as if you had never played a game before (but still have exceptional knowledge of all sorts of different games).

[gimymblert]

Not a book but immensely helpful (and interactive)

http://www.jorisdormans.nl/machinations/wiki/index.php?title=Main_Page

[dontkickpenguins]

No one else has mentioned Game Feel which focuses on the sensation of control in video games and is purely about how to make "good-feeling" games. It defines "Game Feel", and then talks about metrics for Game Feel, gives practical examples and some principles of Game Feel.

[Chris Pavia]

Plus it has a cool cover! 

I've seen it at book stores here and there, and was curious if it was any good. Thanks for the tip!

[BlueSweatshirt]

It is my firm belief that game design is best learned about by making video games (as well as playing them).

Good point. 

[floatstarpx]

It is my firm belief that game design is best learned about by making video games (as well as playing them).

Good point. 

Funny (and relevant story)... I once walked in to a friend's room to find him with his feet up on the desk, and a book in his hand.. his (music) keyboard was over the other side of the room, on the bed. upside down.
He was reading "Learn to play the keyboard" (or similar name)..one of those osborne books for kids, with the cartoon characters..
I ask him "What are you doing?"
"Learning to play the keyboard"
He didn't get very far with that approach.

[paste]

I think most of us have played Super Mario Bros. but reading auntie pixelante's breakdown of the first stage revealed a lot of things I had never even considered in the... 17 years that it's been burned into my memory.

Would you (or anyone else for that matter) happen to know where i can find this?

[Fallsburg]

http://www.auntiepixelante.com/?p=465

[Chris Pavia]

http://www.auntiepixelante.com/?p=459

Another good one.

[Chris Pavia]

Forgot I had this in my bookmarks:
http://wordsonplay.wordpress.com/2008/07/30/the-secret-books-of-game-design/

There are a bunch of suggestions in the comments as well.

[Fallsburg]

I was thinking about the Scott McCloud book the other day.  I would love to see a game designer make the equivalent work in game form.

[xe-cute]

The way I see it, there are two main problems with what you're saying.  The first thing is that when you talk about people who like their own game and people who are fanatical about their own game, how do you know which one you are?

That is easy to explain (I come across it weekly in my Music Production Community).

A fanatic will not take constructive critisicsm and will overlook the flawes of there game (even when they know deep down it is not perfect or even just not that good - because they have worked so hard and can not admit it to themelves or they think they are a failure).

A one who likes his game has listened to critique and applied needed tweaks they think are in the games best interest (they can take advice & apply it without getting all angry etc).

The second thing is there is a difference between an addictive game and a fun game.  When using simple reward strategies, you risk making the player feel manipulated.  So a little learning can be a dangerous thing, but if you read you can learn about what you didn't know you didn't know.

Gambling is addictive because it is fun at the time. Same rules apply to gaming. If it is addictive then surely it must be fun (IMHO).

However with that said I have to say that I do not like randomization in game mechanics as I think it is bad design. The player should be awarded for skill more in any equation rather than something random. When you play a game which seems like the lottery it is not fun. But then again playing the real lottery i life is not fun either or addictive - at least to most. (You just check your numbers and move on).

On a side note: I never studied art/painting. I am glad I didn't too. Because I have my own style due to being my own teacher. If I had studied art than I do not believe I would have the style in which I paint today.

[paste]

A fanatic will not take constructive critisicsm and will overlook the flawes of there game (even when they know deep down it is not perfect or even just not that good - because they have worked so hard and can not admit it to themelves or they think they are a failure).

That makes sense, although people can still convince themselves they accept criticism.  You seem to be self-aware enough for this not to be a problem, but some others aren't. 

Gambling is addictive because it is fun at the time. Same rules apply to gaming. If it is addictive then surely it must be fun (IMHO).

If something is addictive, it's not necessarily fun.  Many addictive things hold the fun or rewarding aspect just out of reach most of the time. 

[s0]

Yup, I've known several of World of Warcraft players who admitted to not actually enjoying the game anymore, but feeling "obliged" to continue playing because of the social pressures that come with playing in a guild.

Also, about gambling: The actual "game" part of gambling (and I mean pure gambling, like roulette or slot machines) isn't all that fun. What compels people to gambling is the chance (however slim) of getting a lot of money with very little effort.

[X3N]

Highly recommend Rules of Play. Great universal game design book looking at internals (mechanics), then externals (interface, controls etc), then culture (social context).

http://www.amazon.com/Rules-Play-Game-Design-Fundamentals/dp/0262240459

As pop culture, games are as important as film or television--but game design has yet to develop a theoretical framework or critical vocabulary. In Rules of Play Katie Salen and Eric Zimmerman present a much-needed primer for this emerging field. They offer a unified model for looking at all kinds of games, from board games and sports to computer and video games. As active participants in game culture, the authors have written Rules of Play as a catalyst for innovation, filled with new concepts, strategies, and methodologies for creating and understanding games.. Building an aesthetics of interactive systems, Salen and Zimmerman define core concepts like "play," "design," and "interactivity." They look at games through a series of eighteen "game design schemas," or conceptual frameworks, including games as systems of emergence and information, as contexts for social play, as a storytelling medium, and as sites of cultural resistance. Written for game scholars, game developers, and interactive designers, Rules of Play is a textbook, reference book, and theoretical guide. It is the first comprehensive attempt to establish a solid theoretical framework for the emerging discipline of game design.

[team_q]

Funny (and relevant story)... I once walked in to a friend's room to find him with his feet up on the desk, and a book in his hand.. his (music) keyboard was over the other side of the room, on the bed. upside down.
He was reading "Learn to play the keyboard" (or similar name)..one of those osborne books for kids, with the cartoon characters..
I ask him "What are you doing?"
"Learning to play the keyboard"
He didn't get very far with that approach.

Funny, It wasn't until I found books and the teachings of others that I was able to learn how to play instruments, before that, when I just picked up guitar/keyboard and started playing I was just making form and direction-less noise.

I've been playing/thinking about games for most of my waking life, and I still find value in the ideas and conclusions of others. Their approaches and conclusions might be different then yours, tempering your ability as a game designer.

[xe-cute]

You know I like this thread already. Because even though we all have a different aspect/angle, we already and can see and respect and understand everyone's individual opinion.

Even to the degree that the percentage I hold in my own wavers.

I think in game making this is the most important thing. The ability to to understand things is so important and to know that each person is an individual.

My opinion since my original post has already changed several times slightly in direction. But as my opinion changes slightly in either direction it makes me a better person.


For example I've realized that in pure art of painting you do not need training (I know this from personal experience). No one teached me at all how to paint. Yet I can.

However I have also learnt from personal experience that to make decent music I could only do so much playing by ear and I did go out and learn music theory which did help me a lot. Also I run a music production website where we have tutorials for people to learn music theory and they can use all this to get signed as an artist. Some even thank us years later (as they say without our site they would not of been successful).

I guess, in my conclusion for now, it is finding the balance with making games (which I myself do not know yet). We all need to learn coding (that's for sure), but on the artistic/creative side I think it is more "do your own thing" as like with painting.  So in respect I guess it is 50% learning (coding) & 50% creative. So I guess in that respect it may be more in-line with music production. HOWEVER - these books are not teaching how to code but how to be creative in many of them. which I don't quite agree with a lot of the time (from the very little I know - I may be wrong).

In essence I guess I am trying to say: It is great to learn how to do something technically. But not how you should create something creatively.

^{(oh jeez, I am giving myself a headache now - soz all)}

[baconman]

The above post summarizes my frustration on the issue, too. There's "programming" books that teach you simple commands, but not how to do much with them. There's "design" books that teach you the more creative side of things, but with no examples of how to code the objects associated with them. Then there's this huge, gaping "middle ground" that really, it seems that no book covers well.

Animated spriting is a perfect example - there's animation books that teach style of doing that, there's computer illustration guides that teach you how to draw stuff with a program, including animations. There's coding books that teach you to embed an image or animation, or to "move" a player piece. But it stops there; with little to no info on context-sensitive embedding.

I keep hoping/wishing for a book that takes the packaged assets of GM, and demonstrates in code (D&D or GML, I don't care) step by step, how to make objects of them that behave and interact properly; and how to do stuff like script things together. Most of it (powerups and the like) are fairly simple (collide with player, destroy self, increase a global), but some things like inventory management, items that grant abilities*, and animated player sprites aren't necessarily so straightforward as one might expect them to be. (IE: There's a lot of expectable ways that look like it should be right, but it's wrong; like tying them to key press/release events.)

* To somebody fresh to coding, they may percieve it as "this item adds this power to the player," instead of "the player already has this power to begin with, this just lifts the restriction on it" instead.

Your best bet with that, is to find some open-source games you like and it's proper compiler, and then study/tinker with it awhile; or add in elements to it, once you're feeling a bit more daring/comfortable. Back it up often, though; and always keep an unedited copy, just in case.