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[tametick]

But if you already have an established fan base ready to support you, do you really need Kickstarter or 8 Bit Funding? Couldn't you set up a donation drive yourself on your own website?

It depends on the scale.

Notch probably doesn't need 8bf, and neither does Derek Yu.

On the other hand, I have a few people who have played previous games of mine and pledged to Cardinal Quest & helped build up some momentum, and I don't think I would have gotten as much money if I just set up a page on my website.

[tametick]

also let the record show that valis keeps looking for ways to attack the idea of funding indie games (e.g. legal issues)

Paul, I'm just asking questions here.  Is that OK with you?

You are not just asking questions, you have decided you do not like the idea beforehand and are fishing for reasons to support that decision.

Also:

8bf is only a week and a bit old and there are already at least 2 games which will get funded for sure (you need to pass 50% to get any of the money), Cardinal Quest & Expedition.

That is not bad at all for such a young site.

[Christian Knudsen]

On the other hand, I have a few people who have played previous games of mine and pledged to Cardinal Quest & helped build up some momentum, and I don't think I would have gotten as much money if I just set up a page on my website.

That's probably true. Do you have any thoughts as to why? Is it because having your project on 8 Bit Funding adds legitimacy to it? Or is it just easier for contributors to, well, contribute, on 8 Bit Funding than for example through a PayPal donate button on your own site?

Not really related, but one of the ways I'd love to see 8 Bit Funding grow is by focusing more on the development process of the projects than simply getting a one-time fund. My own personal ideal version of something like this would be a combination of 8 Bit Funding, the DevLog forums here on TIGSource, and Flattr. Instead of project pages being a static introduction of said project, they would be a devlog or diary. People would follow these devlogs, post comments, discuss them, offer ideas. And if someone really likes a recent update or where a project is heading, they can hit a "Support" button that works like Flattr, i.e. the user has set a fixed amount of money to throw around every month, and this amount will be divided up between the projects he's clicked to support that month. I personally love to follow the development of games (and so does gamers, it would seem, just look at Wolfire) and it'd be great to have a site that was a collection of development blogs with a one-click way to support the projects. There'd of course still be the need for one-time funding drives for the projects needing that.

[tametick]

On the other hand, I have a few people who have played previous games of mine and pledged to Cardinal Quest & helped build up some momentum, and I don't think I would have gotten as much money if I just set up a page on my website.

That's probably true. Do you have any thoughts as to why? Is it because having your project on 8 Bit Funding adds legitimacy to it? Or is it just easier for contributors to, well, contribute, on 8 Bit Funding than for example through a PayPal donate button on your own site?

I think being on 8bf got it more attention - pretty sure the fans were only the catalyst, I think that once people saw that it starts gaining traction they felt more confident pitching in.

This is the first time I am trying to make a commercial game, so it was for the most part an experiment.

Maybe I'll try doing it by myself on my site for the next game and see what happens.

[valis]

You are not just asking questions, you have decided you do not like the idea beforehand and are fishing for reasons to support that decision.

What you're doing is saying that the moon is made of green cheese.  It isn't.  I win.

See how easy it is when instead of addressing what people actually think, we can just say what they think and address the words that we put into their mouths?

As far as the legal issue goes I was really just curious.  That is a problem that Kickstarter and other such VC matchmaking arrangements have had.  It's just something to keep in mind.  Not that someone welching out of a project is likely to happen at this stage of the game but sooner or later it will.

[tametick]

That is a problem that Kickstarter and other such VC matchmaking arrangements have had.

You keep using that term - crowd funding is not venture capital, and is in fact presented as an alternative to traditional funding sources such as VC.

[Alex May]

Don't know why you guys are bothering.

[tametick]

Don't know why you guys are bothering.

You are right 

[valis]

You keep using that term - crowd funding is not venture capital, and is in fact presented as an alternative to traditional funding sources such as VC.

Surely if people can compare it to getting a hamburger at McDonalds-- a finished product-- I can compare it to venture cap.  Right?

It's similar in that you're paying money for a share in something in some intermediate stage of completion.

By the way, make sure you argue with every single point I make in case I say something scary and you miss it.

[:^)]

Ok so wait, hold up.

What is it you want 8BF to do/change/whatever?

If you've already clearly stated that, I'm sorry but can I bother you to state it again?

In one post if possible, please?

[valis]

Not necessarily anything.

I wish them luck-- like I said it would be great if there was a funding source for this sort of thing.  I just don't think it's very likely to be successful.  One nice thing about it is that, at least in theory, it will consolidate the funding begs into one place.

[Nix]

Not necessarily anything.

I wish them luck-- like I said it would be great if there was a funding source for this sort of thing.  I just don't think it's very likely to be successful.  One nice thing about it is that, at least in theory, it will consolidate the funding begs into one place.

You don't seem to like the idea of "free" funding at all. Your concerns don't seem to be videogame specific. What do you say to the huuuge success of so many projects on Kickstarter, that follow the model of "funding begs?"

[Evan Balster]

Success story:

Evan (me) has a game idea.  An online game about drawing.  At a game jam, he starts making it.  18 days later, he releases the first version.  Over the next week or two, he excitedly watches the server and releases little patches.

He gets less productive and when the summer ends he takes the game (interest in which has petered out) down.

Evan hears about Kickstarter and starts putting information together for one.  He also submits his game to a Japanese showcase at the suggestion of a friend.  The showcase selects him and he gives a speech about it in japan.  Then, he returns home, launches the Kickstarter and gets his game back online, version 0.2.

Note:  Evan's game is near-impossible to fit into any commercial model.  Venture Capital is irrelevant to it.

Evan doesn't know how to market things, but word spreads naturally and his game is featured in a few places by journalists who check Kickstarter.  Later on, the Kickstarter team, who have been smitten with the project from the start, feature the game on their frontpage and weekly E-mail.  It rockets from half of its $1000 goal to double it, eventually landing at $2500 in funding.

Evan is very grateful (as expressed in Kickstarter updates) and sets to work fulfilling the technical requirements of his rewards.  He purchases and assembles a new, powerful server box to replace the seven-year-old Dell we was using before.  The game goes back offline as development of the new version takes longer than expected.  Evan gets a Mac for porting and is no longer reliant on school machines.

The present.

My project was named Kickstarter's game project of the year 2010 and I'll be on a PAX East panel with "interative fiction guy" and a tabletop game developer in a month.  I'm very grateful to the Kickstarter folks, Journalists and the hundred-and-some people who sponsored my project.  I'm nearing completion of version 0.3.0, and I've not actually made any personal use of my funds despite the hundreds of hours I've put in.

So if nothing else, call that an example of the "usefulness" of systems like Kickstarter.  I may only be part of a 10-20% "success group", but that owes to the fact that people liked my idea and wanted to support it.  I'm behind on delivering my rewards (I'll take care of them soon!) but not one person has complained.

Kickstarter and its little cousin 8BitFunding are mechanisms where people who want to see something finished (because they believe in it!) can give it a push.  It doesn't take a lot of help--thirty donors would have been enough for my project--and there are a lot of those fish in the sea.

The system works, for myself and my patrons.  We win.


Regarding 8BitFunding, I saw their site for the first time yesterday.  I'm a little critical, and on the whole I would probably use Kickstarter again, though my bias is to be noted.  8Bit's system is less mature, the monetary loss is 2% larger, and their halfway-point system seems to be an attempt to address an apparent weakness in the Kickstarter scheme that's actually what gets donors worried about a project meeting its goal.  The site also doesn't have the sort of patronage that Kickstarter has built up, which as I saw goes a long way.


Anyway.  I need to go do some programming. 

[tametick]

Regarding 8BitFunding, I saw their site for the first time yesterday.  I'm a little critical, and on the whole I would probably use Kickstarter again, though my bias is to be noted.  8Bit's system is less mature, the monetary loss is 2% larger, and their halfway-point system seems to be an attempt to address an apparent weakness in the Kickstarter scheme that's actually what gets donors worried about a project meeting its goal.  The site also doesn't have the sort of patronage that Kickstarter has built up, which as I saw goes a long way.

They also accept people from outside the USA, which kickstarter does not (needless to say this single fact is by itself all the reason I need to pick 8bf).