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TIGSource ForumsPlayerGamesThe Paragon of Indie Entertainment
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Gargantua
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« on: April 08, 2007, 08:28:04 AM »

The paragon of indie gaming - www.spiderwebsoftware.com - or not? These games are all well respected around this community, and I mean why not? They're easy to get into, they offer acceptable stories with branching paths, and most of all they adhere to fantasy tenets, but without becoming overly obnoxious about it like the modern industry. And yet, I can't really stand a single one of these games. The first and foremost reason, though there are many others that spring from it, is that the in game art is plain terrible. The intro screens look good, yet the interface makes my poor eyes bleed, and the models all look cheap and rushed. I actually think the Exile games are better than any of the later, simply because the 2d sprite art leaves almost enough to the imagination that I don't have to deal overly much with whatever spiderweb calls style.

   So where does that leave us? What makes good art and what makes bad art? I don't see Spiderweb's games as bad because the art is reminiscent of early 90s games, in fact I think there are games from then that succeeded in using low resolution art to a much better degree. Spiderweb's art, however, seeks to get away with poor style simply because it's low tech. Look at this link, http://www.avernum.com/avernum4/images/SpecterTrial.jpg, if we ignore the interface there are the character models themselves. Not a single one seems to me as if any effort was put into it beyond the point "necessary" to look like a generic fantasy character. Sure the lizards are all green, they walk, they've got arms, hey it's a big lizard. The robed figure, well he must be a priest or a mage, I mean he's got a brown robe. Yet, for a game made in the last year, there is absolutely no detail or style. I couldn't actually think of a blander image of those figures if I tried. "Hey now, you're being unfair, a brown robe is brown, walking lizards should be big and green." Well of course they should, but where are his scales, where are the patterns in the robe, the weavings in an ancient tongue, or the patches and holes in this threadbare sack cloth he just found on a frozen beggar. "Well shit man, this guy isn't building the next gen graphics engine." Right well, does that excuse them from making their game believable?

   There are some other things besides the graphics, and this pertains to a lot of indie mentality as a whole, that is the need to make it "accessible" to the kid who doesn't really play videogames, but might if his friend Sam has it b/c big his big brother Luke downloaded it last weekend and it's on the computer one day when they're hanging out after school. Stop lowering yourselves to the lowest common denominator. Just because you've got super friendly tutorials that tell everyone, "well actually you don't really need that stat until level 15, b/c you're just gunna be thumping rats until then", does not mean Sam's friend is going to give a damn about this game. You've actually stunted his growth with the game by holding his hand and showing him later content before it was even due. If someone is going to play your game, you might get a few bites with this quick addiction technique, but the only ones that are ever going to stick around are those their for what's really inside the game, not the glitter on the outside. Coddling people so they don't get frustrated has the same effect. Take the lack of penalties more and more in games these days. Everyone is subscribing to the idea that the more the player is shied away from pain or frustration, the more he's going to love my game. How is that even possible? The only reward we have as players is that we can overcome these in game obstacles in the face of their peril. We're already choosing a less perilous path by playing a game versus going outside into the real world. So why treat us like babies with lies about how your world never has any downsides? If I can't fall down in your game, then am I even standing?

   I'm not trying to rag on spiderweb, it's only that what they are attempting to do is something that I think the indie market needs more than anything else. They're so close, they could have such a satisfying game, yet the shell they've carved out does not come to life. What they lack is a living breathing world, mostly because it doesn't even look like a living breathing world. If they were to improve their art, which they could probably do best by finding another more talented artist, they would have a highly refined game. It's got alot of flaws besides the art, but so do most games, and most of those subscribe to far worse tenets like abusing fantasy cliches.




*edit* Spacing is a good idea.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2007, 01:06:08 PM by Gargantua » Logged
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« Reply #1 on: April 08, 2007, 11:24:48 AM »

Whoa whoa whoa.

Dense.

Text.

Spread it out.

Just a little bit.

(Though, it must be said, I appreciate this kind of loquacious post.)

I happen to really, really like the stuff that Spiderweb Software makes. They are really neat games that, at first, seem really ugly and horrible, but then you realize that they understand the medium of games better than a lot of professional designers. They're "hardcore" in the respect that they inaccessable, but once you get over that you have this really great literary piece. I've only played Avernum, but Avernum was enough to convince me that these guys make good stuff.

A lot of videogames are like reading. Reading a big long fantasy novel takes a couple hours for a couple days, maybe a couple weeks if it's a big one. Fantasy games ascribe to a similar philosophy. If the beginning of your fantasy novel is full of really complex relations between characters and is slow to get to "the goods", you're never going to get very far in it. The same goes with fantasy games. The reason why games like Final Fantasy are so accessable to some of us isn't that they're super easy, it's that they're related. James Paul Gee talks a lot about semiotic domains and how when you're in one (i.e. Final Fantasy player) it's easier to keep being one (play more Final Fantasies) than it is for other people (i.e. people who haven't played Final Fantasy). You making the jump from one RPG (Final Fantasy) to another (Dragon Quest) isn't too hard because they're similar. But making the jump from ordinary person to hardcore Avernum player...  it's much harder.

You have to also remember that this guy, despite being an indie developer, still wants people to play his games. Newer Avernum games holding newer players' hands is really just what he has to do to get players to pay for his games. It's hard to group vets and newbs together when they come from such distinct angles with respect to accessability.

I think having a ton of totally rad graphics (Tsugumo making graphics for Spiderweb games would make me wet my pants) would be totally rad. I also think a ton of other things could make Spiderweb games better (e.g. better music, a nice field, a better interface, better sound effects). In the end, though, all we're going to get is what Spiderweb wants us to get. It's a fantasy world romp. There are quests and some other things that are fun to do. You can't ask for much more.
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« Reply #2 on: April 08, 2007, 04:42:21 PM »

I played their old Exile I, II, and III trilogy which came out for Windows 3.1. Their more recent games I haven't played. I enjoyed those games that I played very much.

Now, I'm sure they'd be surprised if they heard this, but I think their older games had better graphics then their newer games. I think their graphics have gotten worse over the years. They used to be much more simplistic, 2D overhead instead of isometric, and they didn't used to have character portraits, and the GUI was much more basic. Yet the look was much cleaner, it didn't feel bad for the eyes to look at, the way their newer games do.

So I basically agree with both of the above two posters. Yes, their games are really really good, especially if you like RPGs. And yes, their graphics are really really bad, even by indie standards.
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« Reply #3 on: April 08, 2007, 09:26:14 PM »

I always wondered why Spiderweb games have such horrible presentation. As far as I can tell he is quite successful; it oughtn't be too big an issue to get some help in polishing the games up. I guess you could say "well, he doesn't need to..." but I just don't know why anyone wouldn't want to, especially when it is a relatively simple thing to fix.
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« Reply #4 on: April 09, 2007, 02:08:19 AM »

His games are pretty damn ugly in that "we've just discovered rendered sprites, but we haven't figured out alpha-channels yet" way but I suspect he's making a really good living from them and his audience doesn't give a shit. I mean even if he did polish them up, his game is still gonna' look 5 years behind the curve so why bother?

That said, I did find the presentational barrier to be one which stopped me really giving his games a chance (Pff! So sue me!) so I suspect he's got a fairly static audience.

Still, if someone made a really nice looking roguey game with exploration and spells and stuff but not too much guffery, I think I'd be well into it. That Fastcrawl game was a nice stab at it, but boiled the recipe down a little too much for my liking.
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« Reply #5 on: April 09, 2007, 02:34:35 AM »

Quote
even if he did polish them up, his game is still gonna' look 5 years behind the curve so why bother?
Because they'd look nicer. As far as I'm concerned, that is all the reason you need.

I don't expect cutting-edge graphics, but if the game is at least pleasing to look at it does increase my enjoyment quite a lot - regardless of genre.

[completely off topic but I just had to share] - the TV is on in the background here, and there is some guy visiting an elementary school. And the music they are playing in the background is the Imperial Death March from Star Wars performed on a tin whistle. I swear; the music in Japanese variety shows is something else. Once I saw a feature on vintage cars that used Monty Python's "Sit on My Face" as background music.
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« Reply #6 on: April 09, 2007, 05:59:00 AM »

Quote
even if he did polish them up, his game is still gonna' look 5 years behind the curve so why bother?
Because they'd look nicer. As far as I'm concerned, that is all the reason you need.


Oh, I agree. And I agree that it'd increase my enjoyment of the game. I meant "why bother?" from his perspective. He's obviously getting ample sales to plough his own furrow, so why splash out on new graphics, eh?

If he ain't broke, don't fit it. Wink
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« Reply #7 on: April 09, 2007, 08:47:55 AM »

The ingame graphics are not as ugly as the UI, which is a big killer in those games. Fixing that would give it a whole new look.

As for its old games, it looks like the old look was better pulled due to our expectations from them, that suspension of diesbelief thing.
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« Reply #8 on: April 09, 2007, 10:52:45 AM »

Well, I'm of the belief that if it ain't broke don't fix it, but uh, his graphics are broke. He may have buyers for other reasons, I'm just trying to point out how to make the game and games in general better. It benefits us all if projects rectify their short comings.
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« Reply #9 on: April 09, 2007, 01:48:17 PM »

I agree that older Spiderweb's games looked better than the newer ones. As RinkuHero, I was a big fan of the Exile series (Exile 3 was the first shareware game I've bought), while I simply can't stand Avernum and GeneForge just because of graphics.

I know these are good games (maybe even better than Exile in terms of story, gameplay, mechanics and depth), but they look so terrible. I just can't force my mind to think that I'm playing a good, professional game and that it is worth my $$$.
And funny thing - I still have Exile 3 on my HDD and the way it looks doesn't bother me at all. In fact I even like it.

It really shows that if you really can't make good graphics, then at least make it simple and clean. Exile series had some sort of style - graphics were very simple and small, but those 2-d petite sprites we're actually pretty nice. And overall they fitted the game alltogether. Meanwhile their current games look like if Blizzard would hire a 14 years old, to make the graphics for Diablo and then stopped paying him.
And I also wonder why - I mean their audience is probably as hardcore as it gets and I'm sure than many Spiderweb's customers love roguelikes. Why? I ask why spend extra time/money on making ugly graphics, trying to resemble some "normal" games?
It won't appeal to "normal" gamers and cRPG nerds won't care anyway (or prefer Exile style).

It's really a mystery to me how they hold their own. Especially that they release lots of those games, so I guess that they sell pretty well.
 
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« Reply #10 on: April 09, 2007, 02:00:44 PM »

I am one of those people who liked the Exile series waaaay more than the isometric series -- I still play through the isometric series but the added realism (as opposed to more abstract representation) makes me expect more out of it, maybe.

The plot is absolute top-notch, though. The first three Exile games have enough text in them to fill a fantasy novel series.

I wish he'd grab onto an assistant programmer to whip up a new whiz-bang engine -- then he'd really have some presentation that lives up to the quality of the gameplay.

He seems to do alright for himself, and the game is certainly quality -- it's just that I'd take a much different slant at this point in time to try and freshen up what he's building.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2007, 02:02:42 PM by ravuya » Logged

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