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[JasonPickering]

wow some really good points. I have figured out what the main problem I am having is though and you illustrate it in your post. My goal was to keep all HPs very low. for example a Mouse has 1 HP. In your examples you deal with much higher numbers. where as in mine doing 1 damage vs 2 damage isn't that great a leap. yes it will kill the monster faster, but the difference isn't worth the risk. This could be solved by upping the HP values but I really wanted to stick with the much lower values. so I think the idea I need to move forward with now, is not so much the amount of damage done, but calculating how damage is done. when a player attacks I need to figure out a more elaborate way to decide if he hits or not.

[vinheim3]

You could make it more arcade-y which I'm sure people would enjoy a lot. Attacks still take as along as a bar charges, but both you and the enemy can avoid hits by jumping around. A more action-based RPG. Think Paper Mario, except you can avoid ALL damage with timing. Later enemies have harder-to-avoid attacks and can dodge better, but you get harder-to-avoid attacks as well.

[Doktor_Q]

Oh, that sounds like loads of fun! Just make sure there's, I dunno, a pause before the battle starts? something to prevent you from accidentally starting a fight while you're getting on the bus or something. This is a iphone/android/thatthing game, after all.

[JasonPickering]

Yeah, this was an idea played with a long time ago, but this doesn't solve the original problem of the Attacks though. Originally the game was monotonous because it was attack, attack, attack, heal, etc. and adding this only relegates it to Attack, dodge, attack, Dodge, etc.

This does warrant a second look, but I still need to solve the original problem of differentiating attacks. Paper mario did it where there were hammer attacks and jump attacks, some enemies were immune to this. granted I could also take this approach, but selecting hammer, and selecting jump would be exactly the same. the main difference they had in Paper Mario was that they mechanically were different as one was joystick based and the other button timing. again I could also do this, maybe using swipes or something, but I feel then I am just re-skinning mario. I have thought about adding dodges based on button press, but that still means my combat is lacking. Paper mario looses that strategy in the first play through, flying goomba = jump attack, spike goomba = hammer. and its always this formula for each battle

so on the bar suggestion say I have a low attack that takes 2 seconds to charge and a better attack that takes 4 second to charge you can just spam the first attack. the problem is that alot of the Attacks are "Calculation Choices" where each one has a difinitive answer, and I need to make them "Incomparable choices" where there is no definitive answer because outcomes of each action are wildly different.
ex:
you have 1 health left, you could heal and continue fighting but the bad guy is also low and you could just throw a punch and take them out. each would eventually reach the goal of winning the battle, but they differ and each choice has its own problems.

Its odd, if you look at Roguelikes and Tabletop games they have very simplistic combat, but allow the player a lot more to do, like exploring, loot, and combat. My game has stripped everything to its bare bones having only combat, and close melee combat at that. I almost wonder if I had gone with a more traditional style RPG, if this would have solved most of the problems, as the monotony of the combat would have been broken up by doing other things.

[vinheim3]

NOTE: Everything I say here is only relevant if you choose to adapt an arcade-y style battle. If you find something else really enjoyable, none of this would actually help you

Yeah, this was an idea played with a long time ago, but this doesn't solve the original problem of the Attacks though. Originally the game was monotonous because it was attack, attack, attack, heal, etc. and adding this only relegates it to Attack, dodge, attack, Dodge, etc.

I guess it would sound like that, but unless people are really pro and going for a no-health-loss run, the game will feel like a cross between an RPG and something like An Untitled Story, not insanity mode or VVVVVV, not no-death mode. For beginner players, dangers (in this case, attacks) will be hard to dodge, even the simpler ones. The difference here is that you also have to worry about the enemy dodging your attacks. Depends on how you make it though.

This does warrant a second look, but I still need to solve the original problem of differentiating attacks. Paper mario did it where there were hammer attacks and jump attacks, some enemies were immune to this. granted I could also take this approach, but selecting hammer, and selecting jump would be exactly the same. the main difference they had in Paper Mario was that they mechanically were different as one was joystick based and the other button timing. again I could also do this, maybe using swipes or something, but I feel then I am just re-skinning mario. I have thought about adding dodges based on button press, but that still means my combat is lacking. Paper mario looses that strategy in the first play through, flying goomba = jump attack, spike goomba = hammer. and its always this formula for each battle

While I wrote the previous paragraph, one of the attacks that were floating around my head was a triple fireball. Dodging this is difficult since they are in the same column, so you have to jump through their gaps. I also thought of the player conjuring up a flaming dragon which moves around the screen and is hard to dodge as dodging it requires you to stand in a specific spot quickly. So, just make the variety of attacks you were planning, but make them dodgeable. Think of Castlevania bosses or Metroid bosses where people are able to avoid all their attacks.

so on the bar suggestion say I have a low attack that takes 2 seconds to charge and a better attack that takes 4 second to charge you can just spam the first attack. the problem is that alot of the Attacks are "Calculation Choices" where each one has a difinitive answer, and I need to make them "Incomparable choices" where there is no definitive answer because outcomes of each action are wildly different.
ex:
you have 1 health left, you could heal and continue fighting but the bad guy is also low and you could just throw a punch and take them out. each would eventually reach the goal of winning the battle, but they differ and each choice has its own problems.

You could make it so that the longer-to-charge attack is harder to dodge rather than doing more damage? This way you can have every attack do 1 damage, but choice is dependent on your own skill in accurately attacking an enemy or your own skill in dodging the specific enemy's attack. In the example, the choice is dependent on the enemy. I'd heal on an easy enemy in case there is a battle after it, but I'd throw a punch if the current enemy's attack is hard to dodge, I might not get out of there unless I finish it fast.

Its odd, if you look at Roguelikes and Tabletop games they have very simplistic combat, but allow the player a lot more to do, like exploring, loot, and combat. My game has stripped everything to its bare bones having only combat, and close melee combat at that. I almost wonder if I had gone with a more traditional style RPG, if this would have solved most of the problems, as the monotony of the combat would have been broken up by doing other things.

It sounds like you have gone to a traditional RPG, but you can break out of the monotony with a unique idea. I feel that an action RPG, which was done well in only a few games like Tales of Symphonia and Kingdom Hearts, could provide all of us here with something interesting and fun, but again, if you can include something in your traditional RPG method that may be surprisingly fun, go for that instead!

[BlueSweatshirt]

The difference with your game, setting it apart from most RPGs, is that there's no "spacial strategy". Everything is always in the same place; there's no moving around. This not only makes short range vs. long-ranged attack redundant, but it makes all kind of "area" type attacks moot, because space is not a factor at all in your game, so therefore it becomes your challenge to create a new paradigm to draw strategy on.

[gimymblert]

http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/568517
Not an rpg, but hey look at it for how to handle a simple "combat system"


Edit:
It's about the tell and the resulting varied behavior, Some tell are faking to induce you in error, you need an extra check to sort out the fake but it leaves you a shorter time frame to react, all the game is about taking bet to anticipate move. The cost is the recharge time, and there is a counter mechanics, fail too close and it's an instant fail. Each fail can be seen as a hit in a regular combat.

The principle is universal, tell, faking, puzzle behavior, stochastic behavior, resource management.

Now look at the resource you have in your game, the main are turn and health.
You spend turn in action as well as the enemy, goal and failure are handle by health, attack is the way to move toward winning or losing.

Now what you want is not to look at number, you want to craft an experience. Imagine your health is a linear platformer stage and each turn the equivalent of a challenge that need to be cross. How would you do it?

[JasonPickering]

VinHeim: I like the idea of the longer you wait the better your accuracy, almost like a reverse push your luck game.

Jakman4242: yeah I agree with the spatial strategy. One idea originally was using 2 Players and each Player had a Primary and Secondary Skill. the only person who could attack was the front, but the second spot was a support class where each one gave some type of Buff. this didn't really do much though.

Gimmt Tilbert: I think I understand what your getting at. I agree that the Attack needs to be the basic experience for the player.

I still haven't decided if I want to go with an Action RPG though. I wanted the original turn based combat, where the game was more like a puzzle each fight instead of a mini game.

I have been watching "Extra Credit" on the Escapist and their episode on Choice has really been interesting. so I have been thinking about my games short term goals and long term goals and how I can put those in Opposition.

Short Term Goal: Stay Alive
Long Term Goal: Defeat the Boss.

One of the ideas I have had so far is that maybe giving the player a map to move around would be better instead of a line. Minions move around the Map randomly, or coming after you, or maybe even running from you, treasure chests would also be clearly marked on the Map. The player will move around the world and can engage the enemies if he wishes. He wont know what the enemy will be, he will only see the marker.

so how do I put these goals in opposition

1.fighting Minions
 - Minions try to kill you
 - Killing Minions will make the boss stronger
so the player is being chased by a minion, he can easily kill this minion making his life easier but each minion killed makes the boss stronger

2. Treasure Chests
 - treasure will help kill the main boss
 - treasure might be traps.
if there are 3 chests 2 will have items and one will be a trap. I also think I might make minions that grab the treasure and try and keep it so that causes problems, you need to kill them to get the treasure (if this even is a treasure, it could be a trap) but that makes the boss stronger, granted the treasure will make you stronger too.


this doesn't address the combat specifially, but it does break up the monotony that the combat is causing. I think the idea of Attack Charging is intriguing though. I can give each enemy a setting of cautious, normal, daring. thus deciding how long they charge, but it wont be set in stone that will only be their preference. and that switches the goals to staying alive and killing the enemy.

Edit: I drew a Mockup to see what the map idea would be like and I realize its basically Advance Wars + Roguelike with controlled combat. This is either bad or fantastic I cant decide

[gimymblert]

show the map here

[JasonPickering]

Here is a quick mockup. the Map is above with a monster token and 3 treasure tokens. I am pretty zoomed in on the thing, and I think I could use more zoomed out tiles and then do landscape bonuses. I have the smaller tokens, but if I do go this route I feel I might need to make little guys walking around. and the battle screen is below. right now the map is 5 x 5 but I kind of want to go larger but that means problems as I need to figure out how to get the character moving around.

[JasonPickering]

Combat Test: So I have been working with the combat and trying a couple different things. The below is a test I did. Most combats I test using practical means, like paper and dice, but as this was timing based and needed AI, I had to build the demo below.

http://megaswf.com/serve/1106849

basically you start at 0% and your accuracy goes up from there. pressing space attacks with the current accuracy. the large square at the end will be for Specials once you get to 100% your attack will be a special. a couple ideas I had were:

- Heal yourself
- Elemental Attack
- Slow enemies bar
- speed up you Bar
- Freeze Bar

Still not sure how this feels as I want to sleep on this. it basically turns it into an action RPG, I like the waiting for accuracy as it basically makes you have to act before the enemy does. one small problem is when an enemy attacks, the player can see this and will usually quickly attack this could be used as a counter if your accuracy is high enough but I don't know.

[BlueSweatshirt]

That's pretty sweet. 


If the timing varied based on the character/monster and you added a way to block(like you said), that would be awesome.

Did the player's accuracy bar reset when the enemy attacked? I don't think that'd work so well, because then it'd just be a spam fest of attacking until you eventually hit the enemy, so that all your effort of waiting wouldn't go to waste. Plus with larger and slower enemies, you could just spam attack them and totally annihilate them.

I love your idea, though. I might be getting an Android device soon, so I'd love to test this for you.

[JasonPickering]

Monsters/characters will have 3 speeds for the bar, Slow, Normal, and fast. Monsters will have a few types for how far they wait, Cautious, Normal, Wild.

Right now being hit resets the bar. but I can change that. I am worried about people always going for max which is why I added the reset.

[Craig Stern]

Right now being hit resets the bar. but I can change that. I am worried about people always going for max which is why I added the reset.

Having just played this latest build, I can say safely that a) being hit and b) losing your entire accuracy bar at once after waiting for it to fill is horribly frustrating. A block/counter mechanic would be far, far more enjoyable. Sword and Sworcery might be a good place to look for inspiration.

[JasonPickering]

Okay, so after playing a bunch it is pretty frustrating. I will create a Special that resets the Bar though.

So thinking of the Block I will probably speed up Attack animations to make the game a little harder and then split the screen down the middle. clicking on your side will block, enemy side attack. I don't want the Player to Block to much so I had the idea where blocking will decrease your bar. also enemies will have a defense rating about how good they are at blocking. I am trying to figure out if I want potions and stuff for during the battle or if you should prepare before a battle.

Still have not decided about the linear nature or if I want to go with the map idea yet.

I have been playing through Sword and Sworcery, the combat feels very Punchout.

[Craig Stern]

I have been playing through Sword and Sworcery, the combat feels very Punchout.

Yes; it's centered on what Timmy Gilbert was talking about, which is reacting to enemy "tells" to strike at opportune times and avoid being hit yourself. Paper Mario does the same thing, but it does so in a less open-ended, turn-based way.

[BlueSweatshirt]

Personally, I like the map idea rather than linear.

[JasonPickering]

Yeah the Map idea I like better, but its causing problems as I have to go back and rework a lot. (also the name wont make sense anymore). the main problem is reworking the controls and pacing.

some problems and questions to figure out are:
1. How to do level differences.
  - go through floors like an old school roguelike (Field, Mountain, then Graveyard)
  - build a world with different sections to it (Field over here, mountain over there)
  - one world one level but thats themed all the same. (Adventure in One large Graveyard)
2. Map Usage
  - should it be Map, Battle, Map, Battle. A battle on every square.
  - should the battle only show up when you enter one. minions are all over the map.
  - Should I try and put both on screen or switch back and forth?
3. controls on map vs battling.

On the blocking I am trying to figure it out still. can you block 100% attack, usually blocking only lessens the damage you take, but in my game damage is either 1 Heart or no heart. Also trying to figure out the tells. I had the idea of speech bubbles a long time ago for statuses so I am wondering if I should maybe try speech bubbles to telegraph attacks or do it through animation. the animation causes as a problem as the sprites are so Lo-Fi. Well back to working on this and trying to figure this all out.

[vinheim3]

1. How to do level differences.

Well from what I remember, one of your levels were composed of like graveyard, mountain area, etc. Maybe make the percentage of each, different per level and introduce some new areas along the way? Like graveyard has the easiest enemies, so the first level is mostly graveyard. As levels go on, the amount of mountain areas increase as they have harder areas. A new, harder area is eventually introduced, and so on.

You could also add in that each area has its own challenges to it as well. When you get to a volcanic stage, every turn or 2, lava spews out to hit both of you or just you if you want to make it challenging. The lava will either help or hinder the enemy if you decide for it to hit him. The later graveyard levels allows new human enemies to resurrect as powerful zombies or skeletons, etc.

2. Map Usage

There are 2 popular games on kongregate that goes map, battle, map, battle, with the occasional chest, and there are minions all over the map there too. The main battle system was fun, so if you can make it fun, then it would be ok, though you might want to give the option to freely roam, maybe with a temporary item, your choice really. And you can keep both on screen, the screen would be small since you have cutesy graphics, so it won't take up the whole of anyone's monitor and it would be convenient.

3. controls on map vs battling.

This is based on what you've been practicing and what you've found best, but arrow keys and zx sounds good for a control system.

[JasonPickering]

1. Yeah right now the first area is always Field, then I have 2 more random levels and a boss level. with each having specific guys. this would give me 4 floors and allow me to do smaller maps. this has been what I have been thinking about the most. setting them up like Rooms with an exit to the next area. I like the challenges Idea, and the first thing that popped in my mind was battling a thief in the mountain and both of you taking one damage, but then fighting a fire demon and you taking one damage but the Fire would actually heal him or you if you were fire based.

2. What are these game I would like to take a look at them.

3. the Arrows wont work as the Main build will be for Android. So I need touch based stuff.