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Author Topic: Relationship between Protagonist and Antagonist  (Read 19149 times)
Tiderion
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« Reply #20 on: March 12, 2011, 06:59:41 PM »

Something that few stories do in any medium is provide the motives of the antagonists and protagonists in a sensible and not clichéd way.

...

In addition to this, almost all characters in different forms of media are completely static in their personality. I can think of few examples of media in which a character fundamentally changes between the beginning and end in any meaningful way.
I respectfully question what media you have been consuming.

I would say that yes, there are basically four plots total and everything else is a remake of one or more of those plots. Every year there are also plenty of movies and books that are total crap. Let's be honest, plenty of people are making money for producing bullshit.

At the same time, any successful story is designed around a plot structure wherein the protagonist grows as a person. The antagonist does not necessarily change as it theoretically matter. Many antagonists (and sometimes protagonists) are written as very paper-thin, black-and-white because it is easier for the writer.

However, motives of any character are not rely to the character alone. The story itself, the situation, determines the motives of the character. Take any bad story and I guarantee you the characters also suck. Even Batman did not escape the crap of Batman Forever.
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azeo
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« Reply #21 on: March 12, 2011, 10:33:14 PM »

Something that few stories do in any medium is provide the motives of the antagonists and protagonists in a sensible and not clichéd way.

...

In addition to this, almost all characters in different forms of media are completely static in their personality. I can think of few examples of media in which a character fundamentally changes between the beginning and end in any meaningful way.
I respectfully question what media you have been consuming.

I would say that yes, there are basically four plots total and everything else is a remake of one or more of those plots. Every year there are also plenty of movies and books that are total crap. Let's be honest, plenty of people are making money for producing bullshit.

At the same time, any successful story is designed around a plot structure wherein the protagonist grows as a person. The antagonist does not necessarily change as it theoretically matter. Many antagonists (and sometimes protagonists) are written as very paper-thin, black-and-white because it is easier for the writer.

However, motives of any character are not rely to the character alone. The story itself, the situation, determines the motives of the character. Take any bad story and I guarantee you the characters also suck. Even Batman did not escape the crap of Batman Forever.

I agree, it seems like you've been paying attention to the wrong storys. Also, remember that like 80% of any media is crap, so the vast amount, unless you go looking, is going to have pretty thin plot with characters that don't change. But, something that good authors do do is have dynamic characters, or even a static character that the readers perception of changes.

And letting the player decide how a scene plays out in a game requires tons of man power, although I believe Heavy Rain did it okay.
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Pineapple
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« Reply #22 on: March 13, 2011, 07:28:01 AM »

One of my favorite games is Deus Ex. It's the only game I've played (I haven't played Heavy Rain) where, even though the player's choices don't impact the game's path heavily, I was at least given the unshakable feeling that I was helping to reshape the story with a pull of the trigger. I remember the part in the hangar where Agent Navarre wanted me to shoot the guy. When I decided to shoot her instead, I was shocked that I was actually able to affect the narrative in such a way as that.

Half-Life 2 is an awesome game. I like to praise it for its level design. I played that game through and when I got to the big explosion at the end I sat back and had the feeling that I'd just finished watching a good movie. I didn't feel like I'd been playing a game, I felt like I'd been watching a movie - I could no more affect the storyline so much as I could jump to the moon.

I agree that comics, graphic novels, and writing are probably the most evolved medium in terms of sophisticated plots and characters. But games take their biggest influences from film and television, which seem to have far fewer shining examples.
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Pedrosanchau
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« Reply #23 on: March 19, 2011, 03:32:42 PM »

i think the antagonist can be great for some reasons:

-antagonist/protagonist must be the representation of a way of living(i.e. in most final fanatsy). Kuja in FF9 is a great antagonist for me because he represents the fear of dying in each of us whereas the hero must go trough a lot of sorrow to accept death

-very strong bonds. dante/virgil  Big boos/the boss. work pretty well but often needs other things like awesome cutscenes and graphics. very dangerous though like in god of war 3 where the relationship between the two is dumb in spite of all the emotions behind.

-godlike powers. feel like the antagonist is way above you add a lot if done correctly.however for this to work the gap between the two characters can't be filled too fast. (i.e. in bleach aizen appearence is awesome but his end is stupid). If the character can kill the godlike antagonist easily, the antagonist can't be seen as godlike but just as the dumber guy in the world
« Last Edit: March 20, 2011, 02:04:42 AM by Pedrosanchau » Logged
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« Reply #24 on: March 20, 2011, 06:18:07 PM »

I believe it's the world around them. Matterfact, i think its every element except the two that truly creates the Hero & Villain relationship. By focusing on the universe, characters, narrative & elite laws in the game's world, you must make it so the Pro/Antagonist can't truly exist in the same world.

Yeah it's easy to opt for the main antagonist to destroy the world but crafting the world around her so it seems all they can do is destroy it (to me) creates a better story. Like Sephiroth in FF7, yeah he wanted world domination but his exposition really set the stage. (Thats why i love him, from his POV, his suffering has made him insane. its beautiful.)
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