next »

[Ordnas]

I still have to play the new Sonic (the PC versione came out the 29th), and I am very excited because it all started by 2 very talented fans. True, the level design is very complex, expecially if you compare it with Mario Bros, but personaly I do not like the fact that the camera is too close for the run speed you have, and so it seems that the game asks to the player to memorize the level, something that I do not like  because it can start a trial-and-error on the player side.

Okay, I'm always interested in the opinion of people who don't get the game instantly, I would like to see where the game would be improved, but it generally sound like people who play FPS the first time and complain they can't aim (that was me on console shooter, damn sticks), or people who can't slide in mario kart (that's my sister), you need some trial and error when you shift paradigm, I can't play soccer game control are too complex, I can't parse the screen, etc ... Also my opinion of trial and errors being bad is when the game outright kills you and you have to start over, sonic is super lenient with the ring mechanics, I didn't knew the stage, but I knew the paragdigm, I can parse the stage (the game spells out when you will be in trouble) and have the right reflex (I own the game on switch now, refunding the pc version soon due to denuvo DRM), but if you play it like a mario you are going to headbutt every part of a level, and slope will get on your nerve.

My impressions are confirmed by an incorrect platform game design (also confirmed by many articles), but "incorrect" does not mean that the game is bad, just that is prone to dislike by people (with Sonic we saw that is not the case). It is also confirmed by the designer of the original game, Naoto Ohshima, that the level design is inspired by pinball tables, something that I still do not know how it worked well in Sonic. I do like Sonic games, but not so much, both for subjective and objective reasons.

[gimymblert]

Just another thought about sonic's design and how it differ from other games, most people associate speed to sonic, which generally mean racing/speed run type of speed, BUT sonic is more about speed as spectacle (the whole game level design is about spectacle), it's speed as in skate park (ie speed that allow to do trick and reach other place by keeping the flow). And it's one the only game with those paradigm, difficult to compare when you are use to the dominant paragdim.

Also one of the unsung hero of sonic is the lead level designer, Hirokazu Yasuhara:



Hirokazu Yasuhara - How to make a game "fun"

at 15:20 it's rather obvious that's the whole idea behind sonic level.

Once you understand his design philosophy, you understand the game, also he was influential in unchartred level design, you can see some parallel in the use of misdirection (you see a visual path, but an event send you toward an unexpected direction). Except sonic is richer because the indirection can be bypass after knowing about it and open a new path.

[Ordnas]

Just another thought about sonic's design and how it differ from other games, most people associate speed to sonic, which generally mean racing/speed run type of speed, BUT sonic is more about speed as spectacle (the whole game level design is about spectacle), it's speed as in skate park (ie speed that allow to do trick and reach other place by keeping the flow). And it's one the only game with those paradigm, difficult to compare when you are use to the dominant paragdim.

Also one of the unsung hero of sonic is the lead level designer, Hirokazu Yasuhara:



Hirokazu Yasuhara - How to make a game "fun"

at 15:20 it's rather obvious that's the whole idea behind sonic level.

Once you understand his design philosophy, you understand the game, also he was influential in unchartred level design, you can see some parallel in the use of misdirection (you see a visual path, but an event send you toward an unexpected direction). Except sonic is richer because the indirection can be bypass after knowing about it and open a new path.

Yes, it's true that is the only game with that paradigm of keeping the flow of speed to reach new places, but the fact that most of the successive platform games tried to take examples from Mario games, it means that there was something in Sonic that did not work well, otherwise we would had more Sonic-clones. Maybe if they would put care about some game design attention in topics like camera position and difficulty/reward balance it would be a much more likeable game.

Ok with the trnasition from the "ordinary" to "dinosaur" slide example, very interesting, but is not revolutionary in my opinion, because I think it is just a derivation of "make your level design not in a straight line + put interesting stuff".

I do not like that I should understand the design philosophy to understand the game, sure it is interesting to know it from the developer, but if we still have people in forums talking about the true meaning in Sonic games, maybe there is some problem with the game itself. I think the Sonic success it is like a singular home-cooked dish: the chef did not follow the ingredients from the recipe and just throw stuff in the pot. The risk of bad taste was very high, but incredibly the dish were magnificent.

[Superb Joe]

you're posting on an indie game forum so you should be acutely aware that legions of imitators is not a de facto sign of quality or some sort of universal design truth

[Schoq]

but if we still have people in forums talking about the true meaning in Sonic games, maybe there is some problem with the game itself.

please also tell this to jon blow

[Manuel Magalhães]

Just finished Sonic Mania. This game is fantastic.

[s0]

gotta go f-sat

[gimymblert]

Yes, it's true that is the only game with that paradigm of keeping the flow of speed to reach new places, but the fact that most of the successive platform games tried to take examples from Mario games, it means that there was something in Sonic that did not work well, otherwise we would had more Sonic-clones. Maybe if they would put care about some game design attention in topics like camera position and difficulty/reward balance it would be a much more likeable game.

There is some historical revisionism, sonic is teh reason why the genesis sold more in the USA, it's a very well like game.

The issue of clone is more a problem of sophistication, mario is so simple you can replicate the formula easily, in a way that work at a basic level. Attemps of emulating sonic failed in very obvious way (bubsy). Although some game did manage to capture aspect of the spirit (rocket night). I mean a game like Tiny toons adventure on snes is obviously trying hard to replicate the spectacle style of sonic, but it does so in very bland simplified way.

If it was true, then people would also had remember fondly the mario level of sonic 1 that alternate with more skate like level. Nobody remember fondly about marble madness and labyrinth zone.

Also recently one game emulate the style of sonic and made the creator "millionaire", freedom planet was met with great critics and started as a sonic fan game and the creator was a long time participant in design discussion inside the community.

Ok with the trnasition from the "ordinary" to "dinosaur" slide example, very interesting, but is not revolutionary in my opinion, because I think it is just a derivation of "make your level design not in a straight line + put interesting stuff".

I didn't say it was revolutionary but help you understand how the level where made, it's a bit more than obstacle course, and if you skip the part BEFORE (I linked to the timecode as a simple ILLUSTRATION) where he talk about how he basically apply all Callois type of fun to iterate the design when making level (in this example from the initial slide to the final one), he also goes about explaning how to use anticipation to create pleasure, it's not so much place "challenge here" as place interactive spectacle that plays with expectation here, it's a fine nuance over the general wisdom, because challenge become "element of tension" as he put it, which is a richer way to look at design.

I do not like that I should understand the design philosophy to understand the game, sure it is interesting to know it from the developer, but if we still have people in forums talking about the true meaning in Sonic games, maybe there is some problem with the game itself. I think the Sonic success it is like a singular home-cooked dish: the chef did not follow the ingredients from the recipe and just throw stuff in the pot. The risk of bad taste was very high, but incredibly the dish were magnificent.

I hear you, but that's true for game in general, I don't get sports game for example, and non gamer don't even get the whole concept of video games, not everything as to be for everyone, true, but that doesn't make something bad, I don't go bashing sports game because I don't get it.

And regarding the "true meaning" of sonic, it's a discussion that didn't exist during the classic era of the franchise, the crisis happen when the new generation brought a new formula and failed to evolve it (the adventure/rush formula based on simplified race like gameplay) and furthermore the way new designer handling the franchise failed to emulate the sophistication of the old game, just like the failed clones, when they come back to classic like design. The lack of design literacy due to simple mario like understanding of level design prevented them to make fun level that were uniquely sonic. That said the new formula does as its fan, but those are even more frustrated because the formula is just shy from maturity despite being done longer than the classic one, it never reached maturity.

The fact that mania came back and was praised, especially for its addition and new level, is kind of proof that the recipe works, and also that the chef knew what he was doing because the classic game just worked and was revere up to this day, where is the aero the acrobat rabid subcommunity, or socket? Why nobody reference tiny toons adventure on snes as an inspiration? You don't get a legendary franchise that survive a decade of mismanagement on accident. Many big franchise came and go and get forgotten forever.

[JWK5]

...and in the distance it heard a word echoing in the wind.

"Did someone say... Sonic?" it wondered as it woke from centuries hours of slumber.

The coffin lid slid sideways and from the shadows within a beady pair of eyes that shined like Chaos Emeralds peered out. Foolishly, someone had indeed spoke the word that it had waited so long to hear and with that word had freed the creature from its accursed dormant state and set it loose upon the world thread again.

With its gnarled, weathered hand it pulled itself up and out of the coffin and gazed out into the night sky. It had a supernatural hunger for Sonic theories and nothing was going to stop it from satiating itself.

[Ordnas]

(...)
The fact that mania came back and was praised, especially for its addition and new level, is kind of proof that the recipe works, and also that the chef knew what he was doing because the classic game just worked and was revere up to this day, where is the aero the acrobat rabid subcommunity, or socket? Why nobody reference tiny toons adventure on snes as an inspiration? You don't get a legendary franchise that survive a decade of mismanagement on accident. Many big franchise came and go and get forgotten forever.

Yes, maybe you said the truth, if Sonic was just a simple mistake it would be difficult for the mechanic to survive still today. Also I agree to almost you said before. I will play Sonic Mania for sure 

[gimymblert]

You don't have if you don't like lol

[Ordnas]

I am currently playing The Legend Of Zelda: Breath of the Wild.

The world is beautiful, invites you to explore and experiment. You have a real sense of freedom, and if you can see something in the distance, probably you can reach it. It has some of the best scenery created in a game, at the same level of The Witcher 3.

[Ordnas]

I am playing Divinity: Original Sins 2, I did only 3 hours of gameplay, the first impression is that the story and the lore is much better know, but maybe this causes the gameplay mechanics (and the fun) to start much slower this time ( in the first game, I soon had almost all the elemental magic).

[ｂ∀ ｋｋｕｓａ]

Been playing Wild Guns Reloaded it'ss a really good remaster of Wild Guns. one of the new characters (Doris) has a really interesting gameplay though more difficult to master. (the game was developped by it's original team)

This game is kind of difficult. Not a game i'll get 100% achievement.

[Tanner]

i played all of steamword dig 2 in two days. it's a pretty good game

[s0]

Been playing Wild Guns Reloaded it'ss a really good remaster of Wild Guns. one of the new characters (Doris) has a really interesting gameplay though more difficult to master. (the game was developped by it's original team)

it's so weird how this obscure but cool snes game just got a remake out of nowhere. we truly live in magical times.

[InfiniteStateMachine]

I'm playing that too. Someone at work got 2 copies due to an error and sold me a copy for 10$.

Pretty fun but the controls are a little rough to get used to.



Other than that, all I pretty much play is Tekken7 these days. With a dash of person5. Looking forward to finishing P5 so I can play nier

[Ordnas]

I'm playing that too. Someone at work got 2 copies due to an error and sold me a copy for 10$.

Pretty fun but the controls are a little rough to get used to.



Other than that, all I pretty much play is Tekken7 these days. With a dash of person5. Looking forward to finishing P5 so I can play nier

I played Nier: Automata, it was really fun (at least the first part of the game for me, too many repetitive sections). About Persona 5, do you suggest me to play it, even if I didn't like the Persona series? (I didn't like the student life mechanics, doing an activity every day of the week, meet with your friend to upgrade your social link etc,).

[cynicalsandel]

I played Nier: Automata, it was really fun (at least the first part of the game for me, too many repetitive sections). About Persona 5, do you suggest me to play it, even if I didn't like the Persona series? (I didn't like the student life mechanics, doing an activity every day of the week, meet with your friend to upgrade your social link etc,).

If you didn't like Persona 3 or 4, I don't think you'll like 5. 5 still has the social mechanics. Plus, other than advances due to time and technology, I prefer 3 and 4 to 5.

[s0]

When will are pee gee designers understand that a game doesnt have to be artificially stretched to 100 hours