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FrankieSmileShow
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« on: April 14, 2011, 09:00:39 PM »

CANADIAN POLITICS

Hey. HEY! I thought we should have a topic about this. I think politics are important guys and gals. Lets talk about em. Yes even when they're up here in cold, cold Canada.

I kind of write all of this as if I was addressing people who know nothing about Canadian politics, so bear with me. Even though its unlikely anyone from outside of Canada (or anyone, really) will be interested to read any of it.

I thought that could be an interesting way to start a discussion, so people have something to respond to instead of just blurting out who they vote for and how much they hate Harper/love Jack Layton. Keep in mind that this is my own understanding of things, and so naturally it is biased! Feel free to tell me if you think I am misrepresenting something or being particularly unfair.

I am also kind of writing this for me. Writing down all of this is a good way to make the point on where the country is at in politics and where you stand with them. So basically this is kind of like me talking out loud in the shower as some sort of conversation with myself to hear whether what I think sounds stupid or not. (yes, I actually do that. Very often. Surely I am not the only one?!)

And hopefully if I got the wrong idea, people will tell me and we can all learn together! How wonderful this Internet is!

Also a friend of mine, C-man read it and suggested I add some things, which I did. I added some lines I called C-man says.
---

We got a peculiar position in Canada with politics, here is my rough understanding of them, for non-canadian people who might be interested or canadians who just dont know what the hell. I also took some bits from wikipedia, especially about the precise official policies.



A problem we got right now, is that we got a bunch of political parties, and they are all pretty popular, so whoever wins will win by a relatively small portion of votes. This is sort of the opposite problem to the two-party system of the united states.

Roughly 35% of voters go for the right-wing, Conservative party, and the rest of the votes are spread among the Liberal party, the Bloc Quebecois, the new democratic party and the green party, four very left-wing parties which, compared to the conservative party, share very similar agendas, just with slightly different focuses and levels of extremism.
They all lose to the 35% conservatives, since none of the four parties are popular enough over the others to reach the right wings' 35%. So we end up with a government that 65% of the population hates! This created a strange movement called "Strategic voting" where people are urged to vote in a strategic way so that wherever they are, anyone except the conservatives win. Peculiar!

Here is my understanding of the political parties running:

The conservative party

led by Stephen Harper

The conservative party is the one currently in power.
They're more or less like the republicans in the USA, but a bit more lefty in general. They're generally for lower taxes, smaller government, decentralized government power, and tougher laws and prison sentences.
Stephen Harper says he is for capital punishment (abolished in Canada) but does not plan to try and make any law about it. He is against abortion (which is currently legal and unrestricted in Canada), opposes same-sex marriage (which is currently legal in Canada).
He's been criticized for cutting foreign aid to Africa by $700 million. When he came to power, the previous, liberal government had eliminated a 42 billion dollar deficit in four years and now had a budget surplus. Since the conservative party was in power, the federal deficit went back up, and beyond, raising it to the largest deficit in Canada's history. Though to be fair, there was a recession along the way.
The conservatives were also criticized for being the first party in Canada to use really slimy smear campaigns during elections, broadcasting dirty ads with very dubious claims, something that did not happen much before (now all political parties do it which I think is pretty sad). They are also notorious for being really really horrible at handling environmental issues and for making Canada an international joke with this issue. Stephen Harpers' blunders with this and his foreign policies in general are considered the main reasons we could not get a seat at the united nations last year.
Their current policies are to lower taxes to big companies to create jobs; eliminating their deficit by 2014 by cutting on spending; creating new laws to make the streets safer and protect the children and elderly; and give more funding to the Canadian Armed Forces.

C-man says: Stephen Harper did solve several small issues the liberals had been blocking due to legacy politics, possibly to spite them, things regarding relations with Québec; things regarding relations with natives and that story with Maher Arar, a Canadian citizen who was considered a terrorist by the US government and was deported to his native Syria where he was detained and tortured. Harper fought to have him taken off the terrorist list. Despite being portrayed as a drone of the USA, someone who mechanically agreed with whatever Bush said, he fought surprisingly hard on this issue. He had very little to gain over it and it chafed US relations for a while.
I have to add that, Harper's Conservative party was NEVER in a solid majority that would have allowed him to run wild. A lot of people feel this has kept a lot of his more radical policies in check, so thats something to consider.
Something else, they should have been ousted from power when the opposition decided to form a coalition against them. Harper reacted through really slimy smear tactics, painting Michael Ignatieff as a sore loser going for a desperate, unlawful power grab. For the first time in history, the governor general did not approve of the coalition and so it never happened. As a result, the entire government was pretty much frozen in inaction for a long while.

My own opinion on these guys: Theyre okay. Maybe obvious in my biased description of them, I don't like em much. But I think they are sometimes comically demonized. I didn't pull my hair last time they won, really. Their vision of a government and of Canada is quite different from mine, but not so much that I want to pull my hair out. Heres an example of the kind of stuff floating around Twitter and Facebook recently: Shit Harper did Honestly, a lot of stuff like that feels like awkward hyperbole and out of context, disingenuous bullshit. This one is particularly bad though.



The Liberal party

Led by Michael Ignatieff

The liberal party is center-left. They were in power uninterrupted for a very long time, but had some pretty nasty stories of corruption a few years ago which is arguably what cost them the power to the conservatives, who stayed in power ever since.
The liberal party led by Paul Martin eliminated the federal deficit completely when it was in power until 2006. They also legalized same-sex marriage and the use of Cannabis for medical purposes, and proposed complete decriminalization of possession of small amounts of Cannabis.
Their current platform is based on more investment in education, reducing the deficit back to 0, quadruple renewable energy production, and supporting Canadian Farmers.

C-man says:They had started out as the most leftist party in Canada, but shifted to being pretty solidly centrist over the years.

My own opinion on these guys: They're pretty okay! They did some nice things and I like their policies, and I think our money is in better hands with em. They're also the most likely to beat the conservatives out of the four lefty parties. They had been in power for a terrifyingly long time before the conservatives kicked them out, which I believe is inherently problematic and is almost certain to lead to more corruption.



The new democratic party

Led by Jack Layton

The New Democratic party is like a more socialist liberal party.
Their platform, they say, is based on gender equality and equal rights for LGBT residents, improving environmental protection through regulation, increasing taxes to corporations, aggressive human rights protection, expanding public health care, aboriginal peoples' treaty land and constitutional rights, a foreign policy that emphasizes diplomacy, peacekeeping and humanitarian aid instead of offensive military action, renegotiating the north american free trade agreement, and ending the Canadian war on drugs, possibly legalizing recreational drug usage.
They were never the federal government though, so we don't really know how they'll do if they're ever in total federal power. They did enjoy some influence over the government in the past few years during minority governments.

C-man says: They are criticized for hopping all over the parliament striking out deals, as they are often the "balance of power", tipping the votes that are otherwise split between conservatives and liberals. It helped Jack Layton to get a lot of his own policies approved, but some people have criticized that he is ultimately compromising too much on things he would flat out disagree with just for the political favors he gets in return (though these favors are admittedly about his party's agenda, not about receiving a ton of money and whores)

My own opinion on these guys: They're pretty okay too. I feel their brand of socialism and their platform in general is closer to my own political ideas, but they were never in power, so there's always the risk that it turns out they're dumbasses who don't know what they're doing and will lead our country into oblivion.



The Bloc Québecois

Led by Gilles Duceppe

This is kind of a strange party. It basically exists not in the hopes of becoming the new federal government party, but to protect Québec's interests within the house of commons, and to promote Québec's separatist agenda.
See, many people from Québec want to split off of Canada and have Québec become a country. The movement reached its biggest point in 1995 where a referendum was held to decide whether to separate or not. The results: 50.58% No, 49.42% Yes, 1.82% rejected ballots. The participation rate was of 93.52% of all citizens. From there... the movement kind of lost its fervor and dwindled away as years went by.
The bloc's political agenda is mainly stuff related to how Québec should have more political freedom, how Québec's culture should have more recognition, how the French language should be protected further. Apart from that, its more or less the same as the NPD and Liberal party: lefty, socialist, liberal.

C-man says: Gilles Duceppe the current leader is probably the most moderate leader the Bloc ever had, and isn't actively trying to screw over Canada despite his "Quebec first" policy. He seems to feel as strongly about Quebec's claimed values of leftism and socialized government services as he does about independence. His campaign right now almost avoids the issue of separatism entirely until someone asks him about it, at which point he froths at the mouth, hops on the table, screams VIVE LE QUÉBEC LIBRE and recites Gilles Vigneault songs until shot with a tranquilizer dart.

My own opinion on these guys:I am a Québecois and my primary language is French, I love the french language, I love living in Québec, and I love everything about our culture, but I always thought this movement was nothing but stupid tribalism. I think the idea of protecting a language is ridiculous. Language is created and modified by people, and lives through people using it, not through government decrees and laws. I have no problem with the French being "assimilated" into the English-speaking majority. It would not retroactively delete Molière and Rabelais from history, it would not invalidate how awesome Harmonium was or how great Malajube is. Fuck this cowardly tribalism, if people stop speaking French, so be it.
Other than that, their political agenda is pretty similar to the other lefties, so they're pretty much okay in my book.



The green party

Led by Elizabeth May

Their basic principles: Ecological wisdom, non-violence, social justice, sustainability, participatory democracy and respect for diversity.
Their current policies:
Reduced payroll on polluters, increased taxes on polluters, income splitting for families, a national childcare plan, support for family farms, government transparency, proportional representation, legalization of Marijuana.
My opinion on these guys: They're okay, but kind of nutty and idealist and you just know they cant possibly get elected. I don't like when a lot of your party`s vague, hip basic principles all make me want to scream, "WHAT DOES THAT EVEN MEAN?!". Respect for diversity? You mean, you're not racist? Gee wellickers, thats great! Also, Ecological wisdom?! What!?

Elizabeth was not invited to the leaders' debates this year which is really lame. That probably hurt their credibility. I like that this party exists and especially I like that they actually get quite a bit of votes. I think its good to have some idealists rocking the boat and affecting the debates. I don't think I would vote for them as they are right now however.
EDIT: apparently they support and want to fund "alternative medicine" like homeopathy and stuff. Whoops theyre dumbasses who dont know what the fuck theyre doing




So yeah. My basic conclusion thus far, I feel everyone is basically okay. Some are just a bit more okay than others. As it currently stands, I will probably vote for the NDP.

Cmon Canadians, who do you vote for?! Do you know something I don't, did I totally misrepresent a party or two? I didnt put much dirt on the liberals, if anyone cares to bring to light some terrible things theyve done, go ahead! LET US ALL GORGE OURSELVES ON OUR COLLECTIVE INFORMATION AND BE MERRY
« Last Edit: April 15, 2011, 07:25:39 AM by FrankieSmileShow » Logged

starsrift
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« Reply #1 on: April 14, 2011, 10:05:54 PM »

I think it's fascinating that NDP is pulling and polling ahead of Libruls. It would be startling if the NDP actually won, only Conservatives & Libs have ever been in power. The NDP isn't new, it's 50 years old.

Also, the Green party wants to finance homeopathy. So that makes them a joke in my eyes. Worse, a joke that hurts people because homeopathy doesn't work when people need help.

I think it's sad that the Rhino party is no more. I want to vote for a skateboard in every garage, damnit.
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« Reply #2 on: April 15, 2011, 12:22:15 AM »

I'm voting NDP. I hate Harper and Ignatieff seems just as bad in my opinion. Never cared for the Bloc, and Green seems a bit, as you said, nutty.
Also, Jack Layton is the only one with a mustache, and as we all know... Gentleman

EDIT: I should add that my vote will change if any of the parties decide to actually step up to internet metering issue. So far, they've only talked about it pre-election.
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FrankieSmileShow
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« Reply #3 on: April 15, 2011, 05:14:53 AM »

Also, the Green party wants to finance homeopathy. So that makes them a joke in my eyes. Worse, a joke that hurts people because homeopathy doesn't work when people need help.

I did not know that! That's pretty bad.
Yeah, they just sorta lost a whole bunch of credibility from me there. I should have guessed though, with their awful new age vibe.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2011, 05:21:51 AM by FrankieSmileShow » Logged

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« Reply #4 on: April 15, 2011, 05:52:52 AM »

Anyone but the Conservatives. None of the Shit Harper Did is hyperbole. They've done far, far worse. Nepotism, control of media, censorship, bribery, contempt of goddamn parliament. The only reason why no one paid attention until the election is because no one pays attention until an election. And they're going to raise taxes and lie about it, just like the last three times. (Lower sales tax, increase all other taxes by huge amounts, cut education and healthcare again, the usual)

I'd like to see the NDP do well enough to have a moderating influence in government - they make a good Opposition/sub-opposition with swing power.

I don't know what to make of the Bloc. Separatism is laughable bullshit with no forethought, but otherwise they seem generally reasonable.

I don't have feelings either way for Ignatieff but the main reason why he's not doing as well is because people don't really know him yet. He needs to make more noise.
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FrankieSmileShow
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« Reply #5 on: April 15, 2011, 06:10:26 AM »

Well I don't know, I remember reading lots of stuff that was obviously disingenuous.

Like, one phrase on  "Shit harper did" that I got which said he doesn't know the difference between people of India and Indigenous people of America. What?!

It obviously just means he once referred to them as "Indians". Which is a very common term, though it is indeed erroneous and ambiguous. Wikipedia says that a 1995 census with Indigenous people found "most of the respondents" had "an expressed preference refer to themselves as American Indians or Indians.", so that at least shows how widely spread this term is. GOTCHA shit like that makes the site lose credibility to me, and makes me want to cast doubt on more or less all of their claims.

EDIT: a friend of mine, the C-Man, suggested some things to add to my first post, I updated it with a few lines there and there which arnt always exactly his words but should be close enough. Marked his additions with C-man says
« Last Edit: April 15, 2011, 06:49:35 AM by FrankieSmileShow » Logged

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« Reply #6 on: April 15, 2011, 08:39:55 AM »

I live in a riding with one candidate: he's NDP.  So guess who I'm voting for?

In all honesty though, this is how it boils down:

Harper+Conservatives isn't actually too bad.  They have a lot of stupid shit they like to do, but we can keep them on a short leash.  The nicest thing about Harper is that he's a *terrible* salesman.  So I never have to worry about Canadians swallowing his bullshit and sure enough we've put down the dumber bills over the last five years.

Layton+NDP seem pretty earnest.  I'm not convinced they'd do well to lead the country, but they make for excellent opposition with all their pesky facts and media alarmism.

The Green party is a stupid waste of space.  Anybody thinking to compare them to the Green party from Europe would be sorely mistaken.

The Bloc Quebecois has a dangerous tribalist attitude and seem to "say the right things", but I'm not convinced they'd ever do anything genuinely good for the country as a whole.

Ignatieff has weird eyebrows and that makes him look like an evil muppet.  So there's that.  Also, maybe it's his body language but the guy seriously skeeves me out.  Considering the Liberal track-record, I'm not sure I like them.  They can talk progressives into doing stupid things (like cutting corporate tax rates last decade), but whatever.

Personally I like having a minority government and I hope the NDP keeps pace with the rest of them.  Oh sure they love to bicker and can't get along, which is pretty lame.  However, the idea that all parties have to compromise to move forward seems agreeable to me.  It forces them to seek the will of the people for support and I like that.

tldr; opinion -
Harper is a cheat, but eh we don't care.
Layton seems cool, but better as opposition.
Ignatieff is a muppet.
The other two are batshit crazy.
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« Reply #7 on: April 15, 2011, 09:17:59 AM »

hahaha

Québecer humorist Francois Pérusse said Stephen Harper looks like the example photo you get when you buy a picture frame at the dollar store.
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« Reply #8 on: April 15, 2011, 12:08:06 PM »

Oh, and you forgot about all the completely unnecessary military spending the conversatives do and will continue to do if they get re-elected.
Well isn't it Canada's destiny to invade USA? It will happen
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« Reply #9 on: April 15, 2011, 12:15:43 PM »

which one represents mapl syrup
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« Reply #10 on: April 15, 2011, 12:31:50 PM »

@eva: I guess...bloc quebecois would be the closest?  That or the Christian Heritage Party (omg)

I'm not entirely sure why we're buying those F35s.  We're pulling out of Afghanistan, we don't really have a whole lot to do, and we tend to do mostly humanitarian efforts with the UN.  So what's up with this $16 billion proposal?  Seems a bit...strange.
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« Reply #11 on: April 15, 2011, 01:01:16 PM »

the way you posted those logos and figureheads reminds me of picking a faction for an rts.
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« Reply #12 on: April 15, 2011, 04:43:01 PM »

Someone should definatley make a Canadian Election RTS. Also this thread should be a poll. I'm Canadian but unfourunatly I'm not old enough to vote so... yeah kinda sucks.
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« Reply #13 on: April 15, 2011, 07:48:55 PM »

Someone should definatley make a Canadian Election RTS. Also this thread should be a poll. I'm Canadian but unfourunatly I'm not old enough to vote so... yeah kinda sucks.
Similar case to this

I'm old enough but I'm stupid and dont follow politics and choose not to vote cuz i'll be making some retarded and random picks.
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« Reply #14 on: April 15, 2011, 07:50:52 PM »

Hey someone on facebook linked to this:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/canadavotes2011/votecompass/

Its interesting! You answer questions on political issues and it tells you which party would seem to be closest to your own opinions. More interestingly, then you can go over the details of each question and where each party stands on them individually. I tried it and its pretty nice. If you dont want to read my gigantor post and want some quick reference, check it out! Of course they dont cover all the story. Like... they don't ask you if you believe in bullshit alternative medicine like the green party does... but still
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« Reply #15 on: April 15, 2011, 09:14:50 PM »

according to that, i agree with liberal most

is this good? i cant tell.. ):
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« Reply #16 on: April 15, 2011, 11:43:24 PM »

liberals are fine, only green is ridiculous (which is sad, a green party is a good idea, just not this one apparently... homeopathy, really?)

conservatives kind of suck but like most people said, they dont suck as much as other government rights and they're very obvious

vote liberal if you like their agenda and stuff, its important to vote
for whoever! but make your choice and vote!
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« Reply #17 on: April 16, 2011, 06:33:58 AM »

I really don't like the conservative way of thinking. They are like libertarians economically, a political position I find defensible though I tend to err on the opposite end of the spectrum, but jarringly become intrusive when it comes to social liberty issues, usually from the pretense of working for "family values" or likely because of religious dogma. Its kind of sad that libertarians have pretty much no one to represent them. I guess they have to choose which is the most important to them, economical freedom or social freedom? Sorry bucko cant have both...
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« Reply #18 on: April 16, 2011, 11:24:34 PM »

My riding doesn't have a Liberal candidate.

I don't think the Libs are taking this election seriously. More and more, I'm starting to see this election as Cons v. NDP
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« Reply #19 on: April 19, 2011, 04:37:26 AM »

A challenger appears! The challenger is:
The internet?Huh??

yes apparently us canadians can vote for THE INTERNET now, because we have possibibly the worst service globally

note that this is not ACTUALLY a candidate, but it's a means of convincing major parties to adopt better internet laws.
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