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[Kramlack]

You know you can edit posts right? Also tried the demo. Went from a Day 1 to waiting for a price drop. I'm sure it's better than most of their recent sonicapades, but I couldn't even be assed to finish the demo (which is like 40 seconds if you speed run it I've seen).

I'm not willing to shell out for a game I only somewhat enjoyed. When Sega figures out how to recreate a 20 year old physics engine, they can let me know.

[moi]

Sonic gameplay resumed in one sentence:
Run faster and faster, jump over shit, gain momentum,  enter hyperspeed, land on some spiky shit and lose all your rings, get hit a second time on the same obstacle and die, start again.

[DavidCaruso]

Sonic gameplay resumed in one sentence:
Run faster and faster, jump over shit, gain momentum,  enter hyperspeed, land on some spiky shit and lose all your rings, get hit a second time on the same obstacle and die, start again.

See guys, this is what the Rush games (and Sonic 2) did to the public perception of the series. The fact is that the best 2D Sonic games never did this.







http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O3i0nGHTJVg

[gimymblert]

Are seriously taking moi seriously also not showing the best example  speedrun of sonic 3 really show the complexity as a speed run is about taking the straightest path (which is rarely straight)

Btw not sonic 2, only emerald hill zone, metropolis still have a word about level design, and even emerald hill was full of subtleties, it's like treyarch vs original infinity ward, similar only in surface.


edit:

So looking through the assets, it seems cutscene events are numbered as such:

1 SEGA Logo Cutscene (lol)
11 CG Cutscenes
1 Credits (lol)
19 Story Cutscenes [In-Game]
17 NPC Character Cutscenes (likely mini cutscenes before VS or co-op stages)
11 Rival Cutscenes (Oui? There's only three rivals though. However, it could be that miniature in-game cutscenes initiate during the battle, there's an idea)
14 Viewer Cutscenes (I have no idea what this is)

[DavidCaruso]

Yeah I probably should have linked speedruns lol. But the problem there is that a lot of them don't play the game ""normally"" and glitch abuse hard, warping through level geometry and all. The point was to disprove that the old 2D Sonic games are about going super duper fast hold right to win.

Metropolis's level design was bad. Peek-a-boo enemies, the dumb nut/bolt level gimmick (where half the time enemies wouldn't even bother to attack me), the Labyrinth pulleys thrown in for no real reason (remember how in Sonic 1 horizontal and vertical ones would actually intersect and crush you into spikes?), the bumpers which I'm pretty sure are just there to look cool since their function could have easily been served with a red spring, etc. And then it's 3 acts long because they decided they couldn't waste their Cyber City level map. I liked the platforming segments with the spikes that would rotate on each side of the platform and the rotating gears though.

But really a lot of these problems extend to Sonic 2's level design in general, which is why it's my least favorite game in the classic series. I wrote a big post on it at another forum recently:

Yeah I replayed Sonic 2 a few days ago and got stuck between two horizontally moving blocks in CNZ. Then it turned out that the blocks didn't actually meet together. =P

Spikes are barely a threat in the zone. I don't remember encountering them at all on that most recent playthrough, and looking at level maps I counted 4 sets of spikes in the entire zone. All of them were in Act 1. The main gripe I have with the zone is that everything feels like it's made to delay you for no reason at all, and even then it's not that hard to get through.

But really, IMO the entirety of Sonic 2 seems to be littered with bad level design moments, like the small pits with springs on each end that keep appearing after Hill Top Zone, or the cannons in Oil Ocean Zone that basically just took control from you for 10 seconds, or the peek-a-boo enemies in Metropolis Zone (who also don't activate at all on the screw things if I just run and don't jump at them), or the infamous Pit of Death in Mystic Cave Zone (especially if you're Super Sonic), or Complete Filler Zone (Sky Chase). There are some cool setpieces (e.g. the earthquake in Hill Top Zone) but they're all a bit too underdeveloped (though most of the ideas are followed up in Sonic 3, and more awesomely at that). Many of the level gimmick objects aren't controllable (e.g. pipes in CPZ, cannons in OOZ), and sometimes their use is even counterintuitive (e.g. having to face the opposite direction on the speed booster things in Wing Fortress Zone to get across pits), which can be annoying. And boss battles have become much less threatening and interesting now that I'm older (with the exception of the Wing Fortress Zone boss and the final one, which are still great).

The other main problem the game has with level design is that there's no need to actually maintain inertia. Half the challenge in the original came from maneuvering Sonic around the obstacles to pick up enough speed, but here you can basically just rev up a spin dash and get through any obstacle. Sonic CD had a similar move with the Super Peel Out, but the difference there was that you had to actually maintain your inertia in order to get fast enough to time travel (which would even justify things like those spring pits), and you also weren't invulnerable to enemies. Sonic 2's levels also don't seem to be designed particularly well around the Spin Dash compared to 3's; my theory on this is that the designers designed the levels thinking the recoil feature they originally put in would balance it out, but then they removed it and it was too late to rebalance all of the levels since the game needed to be out by Christmas, no delays accepted.

Challenge is also reduced by Sonic 2's levels containing many more rings than the original, while the levels didn't get much longer. Data for comparison. As you can tell Sonic 3 had the same problem but it was partially offset by the levels being much bigger and the enemies posing more of a threat than in 2 (plus I think those records were achieved using the S3 special stages to get rings). The hardest zone in Sonic 2 was Wing Fortress Zone (which, not coincidentally, I also felt was the most well designed zone in the game), mainly because the ring problem was offset by the main focus of the level being on platforming. Speed wasn't diminished much there either as a consequence; the level was still a lot faster than something from SMW.

Really, the game is trying to be a bridge between the momentum-focused obstacle courses of the original game to the focus on setpieces and dynamic level design in Sonic 3, but the problem is that neither are really executed very well. The obstacle courses aren't very well designed, as I elaborated on above, and the setpieces aren't nearly extravagant enough or frequent enough to make up for that, especially when many of Sonic 2's ideas were redone in Sonic 3 (example: the earthquake setpiece in Hill Top Zone reappears again in Marble Garden) and better. All you're really left with are some awesome graphics and music. I personally blame the game's rushed development cycle for the quality; it's not that it's a horrible game (it's definitely better than the game I'm supposed to be calling "Sonic 4"), but it's easily the worst of the classic series IMO. (For reference, my personal quality hierarchy is: 3K > CD > 1 > 2.)

So yeah I think my opinion of Casino Night Zone just digressed to a mini-review of Sonic 2 in general, but whatever. Someday if I can find the time I want to do a more detailed level-by-level analysis of Sonic 2, with lots of screenshots and all included, since everyone seems to love the game and think it's the high point of the series but myself so the burden is on me to justify my opinions.

[SirNiko]

Hmm.

I feel like the Sonic's jumps are shorter than before, like gravity's a little more severe. For some reason it feels off.

The backgrounds seem really noisy, and it's not so easy to spot what I can and cannot jump on. For example, early in the level you accelerate through some S tubes and are launched into a triangle of rings. If you bounce off the red spring beneath, you can move right towards a tall hill that LOOKS like it's safe to walk on, but it's actually just background.

Later in the stage there's a spot right after a midpoint post where you run off a ledge and across the ceiling for a bit. There's actually a crumbling walkway before that, but it's not that obvious because it's so dark. I feel like stuff is blending into backgrounds too much for a game that has you running by everything at high speed. It's really prefer nice, sharp contrast between platforms and backgrounds, with decorative elements being very distinctively decorative. But I like how the level has a lot of visual landmarks, like the waterfall in the foreground or the latticework backdrop towards the halfway point and beyond.

Towards the end of the level you can take a top path with a Speed Shoes monitor. Right after there's a drop off that you'll inevitably fall into. I feel like each time I tried to jump it, the ground ended earlier than I expected. I don't like Sonic's jumping in this game, for some reason it feels unresponsive and weak, or maybe it's just that the jumps in the first level are really close to Sonic's maximum jumping distance when at fast-walking speed.

The rolling I kind of like. Once I realized you could insta-dash with square it felt like a good strategic thing. There's no need for the speed boosters of previous sonic games, you could choose when you're prepared to rush forward. Doing this recklessly could get you killed. It feels like a good risk/reward situation.

I REALLY wish the camera would pan forward way more. I still feel like I'm being pushed forward but can't really see what's coming up ahead. Given that I rarely (never) have reason to turn around and go backwards, I don't see any reason for Sonic to not be less than an inch from the left side of the screen at any speed other than dead-stop. I want to see what's ahead so I can plan out the jumps as they come. Even Battletoads was more generous than this. Maybe I'm just being over-sensitive after Sonic 4's god awful camera.

I loved the little lap timers when you replay the level. I felt genuinely motivated to go faster. Better would be to assign medals for beating static times in each stage. That was brilliant in Donkey Kong Country Returns, and I'd love them in this too.

The missions seem like a good thing as well. I enjoyed the mission mode in Sonic Adventure 2 Battle, as struggling for top scores in each stage encouraged and rewarded skilled play.

Despite the complaining, I'm optimistic. This could be pretty fun. I really, really hope they keep the cutscenes simple, though. I hate animated CG movies, please use in-game graphics and integrate them with the stage (eg, Knuckles jumping on the switch and sending you down, Robotnik fleeing for his death mecha in the Death Egg Zone).

[gimymblert]

@david caruso
I don't entirely agree with most of your complaint past bad enemy placement in metropolis or mystic cave pit, and it's essentially down a certain aesthetics of functional challenge modern game is all about and have degenerated into cod lie corridor. I think sonic 2 need some credit because it were able to make out the sonic formula that differentiate itself from generic platformer and stage like metropolis just prefigure the complex level layout and trick use in sonic 3. Also the spindash is obviously balance as it only help for small ramp and avoid the tedious going back too far to build speed as most hi level part of the level can''t be reach with proper momentum conservation (especially visible in CPZ).

So yes level design need some useless quirk to give level identity or set a tone (as thing like bounce back spring are entirely avoidable) and sky chase was a cool down level after the intensive 3 acts metropolis. I could go on, while sonic 2 (or sonic in general) never had perfect level design, they also got their own identity that make them stand out from other game and where they could not just copy paste idea like many platformer of the time simply does (for example they got away from the almighty power up and rely mostly on lay out, gimmick don't do new thing they only modify existing motion, unlike mario who rely on object and power up to build variety).

So I didn't address all your point as precisely as I could, merely stating that I disagree with some of your analysis.

[s0]

same problem as sonic 4. half assed attempt to "go back to the roots" squandered by too many concessions to new fans.

[gimymblert]

The hardcore fan on retro are pleased, it's not the original but it can stand enough for itself, it's not stellar either (not as nuanced as old sonic) but they ask for decently good instead of abysmally bad they were serve first. The game show a lot of care, they just are not genius or as competent and creative as the old team on game and level design. But it's not like we don't have the same problem everywhere in gaming dev (the complaint is the same about any modern game).

So no, it is not at all the same problem as sonic 4 which was plain bad as a game first, as a sonic sequel of the classic second and as a sonic game simply.

[SirNiko]

same problem as sonic 4. half assed attempt to "go back to the roots" squandered by too many concessions to new fans.

Can you elaborate on this? Did you play the demo yourself?

[gimymblert]

Side note, thee hacking leak is reaching new height of unbelievable revelation, there is so much left over in the demo ... like sky sanctuary texture, maybe level of chemial plant, speed highway and city escape (without music), it's an old build (from may) but look like they would be able to hack some placeholder to make some part of the game playable from the demo.

It's a real gold pot

Big fail for sega
Big win for the fan

edit:
also game might came to pc according to some steam eavesdropping

[gimymblert]

First hack: modern sonic on classic level

[SirNiko]

Hackers will complete and release Sonic Generations before Sega manages to do so.

[Ishi]

I don't like the sound of that mission list. They best not screw the game up with unnecessary stuff - just playing through the levels would have been fine.

The physics are all screwed, but it's fun enough isn't it? I'm disappointed at the framerate though, it's barely possible to tell what's going on when you go too fast. I would have preferred 60FPS with simpler graphics.

[gimymblert]

hack time Classic sonic in modern level (spindash crash the game and trick ramp too, obviously there is no crouch button)

edit: better run with big fish sequence

[SirNiko]

After seeing the Modern video, I'm actually more interested in this. The missions also remind of Sonic Adventure 2, which I really liked. It's like Sonic Adventure 2 if they took away all the non-Sonic stages and replaced them with 2d Sonic stages.

It's been a long while since I've bought a Sonic game, but I think I may get this one.

[Sabby]

wow - that hacking stuff was actually really interesting. For some reason classic sonic in modern sonic's level just feels cooler. even watching cS spin on that rail was somehow more appealing than watching mS grind it. and the gameplay looked.. a little more momentum based.. and a little more awesome. weird.

[Ishi]

After a couple more plays of the demo I got a warm fuzzy feeling. Was finding some new areas and routes on the third play, which bodes well.

[gimymblert]

classic shield is confirm through hack:






nonsense:


recolor hack is starting 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SuyvHb02NSI&feature=player_embedded that commercial look like the hack of classic in modern level

[gimymblert]

sonic 4 classic generation:



The homing is nerf, but sonic 4 would have play like that there wouldn't be concern

Fan have fixed the rolling before release:



Not it's not classic rolling (fixed velocity no acceleration) but it feel better