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[starsrift]

Would the closest, most realistic representation of religion be nothing more but an adventure game or a simulation game (i.e. managing the Church throughout the centuries, etc.). What are the barriers to crafting nonsecular games?

Games are fantasy environments. Invoking an omnipotent God in a game is handing the player a win button. Making the God impotent so that there is not a win button defeats the idea of the God.

The other tack of giving the player a role of follower in the religion and to attempt to follow that religion is that religions have many sects, schisms, and differences of opinion. Or in other words: the research work to do this is stupenduous and someone scholarly is going to shit over it anyway.

It sounds like you have an idea in mind - go for it!   

[Feral_P]

I just saw this on RPS and thought you might appreciate it: http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2011-05-03-gaming-for-god-article

[paste]

a lot of those make no sense -- universities, charity, rights, and even western morality all predate christianity and catholicism -- take a look at aristotle for instance. he wrote about rights and charity and morality 300 years before christ was born, and ran a university

Yeah but none of that would've come about if Baal wasn't there to show us the way.

[The_Flying_Dove]

That Catholic church strategy game idea sounds awesome. Any game about managing a religion would be awesome. As for real games, though, I've never found one I like. They tend to be generic and preachy. Even before I was an atheist I didn't like them. Hardly any interesting concepts, unless you count Assassin's Creed.

Nobody is pointing a gun to your head and saying that you must believe in a religion. As far as I am concerned, most religious games are targeted towards the very people that believe in their concepts. Are you saying that we have no right at all to even to our later generations in any way about our religions? Oh, yeah, meanwhile atheism is forced down people's throats with both humorous and aggressive comments that show hatred rather than respectful disagreements with a person of another faith. I'm not saying that all irreligious people are this way, but there are a ton of them around, especially in the media, which never stops to criticize religion and point out some good things about it.

Once again, I think it's just as fair to say that a game with a certain philosophy or religion pertains mainly to its followers rather than any outsiders. Sure, people who were not informed about a religion/philosophy might become interested in pursuing or learning more about it, but that doesn't give any other group of people the right to take away the original meaning contained within it.

a lot of those make no sense -- universities, charity, rights, and even western morality all predate christianity and catholicism -- take a look at aristotle for instance. he wrote about rights and charity and morality 300 years before christ was born, and ran a university

Ummm...while there was schools around the time of Ancient Greece, they were not universities; most of them were private and a form of apprenticeship. It wasn't until the Medieval Times that education matured itself.

http://www.bede.org.uk/university.htm

Also, people make it seem as if there was not a single achievement during the Medieval Times when there were more than a few things.

http://medievaleurope.mrdonn.org/achievements.html

http://www.the-orb.net/textbooks/nelson/medieval_achievements.html

So, you see, the Medieval Times were not as bad as people tend to generalize, and the same goes for the Catholic Church.

Going back to the idea of a religious game, how realistic is it to make a game that is very based around history? We have games like grand strategy ones (i.e. Europa Universalis, etc.), which have some degree of historical accuracy, at least according to the actions that the countries may choose to make. To what extent should game developers take away control from the player, as to remain as historically accurate as possible? Is it possible for a person to make a game about a person's life, like that of St. Francis of Assisi or MLK Jr.? Or will games never be able to go that far enough with interactivity?

[Ranordine]

Unsurprisingly, this thread has a rather large number of unhelpful comments. Designing a Christian game is an endeavor at which I believe most atheists would be poor for a number of more or less obvious reasons. A specifically Christian forum might be more help, at least when it comes to thematic issues.

If you're making a game about Christian dogma/philosophy rather than kerygma/history, read deeply into the works of authors who are strongly Christian themselves for inspiration. Dostoyevsky is particularly good for this (The Brothers Karamazov is my favorite book, and the one that led to me converting from atheism), as are many of the later medieval theologians.  Any game that features redemption and absolution as a significant part of its story can, I believe, be read as a Christian game (e.g. Planescape: Torment is one of the best Christian games).

If your goal is evangelical (as it should be, at least in small part), then the posters in this thread are right--overt preaching will only make others recoil from your game. You must be extremely gentle with anything that could possibly promote faith.  You might actually reach more people if you only focus on challenging the materialistic assumptions that permeate modern consciousness rather than going straight to the Bible.  Bishop Berkely's writings are relevant to this if you want to throw in some heavier philosophy, but the main thing to concentrate on is the intuitive feeling with which you suffuse your game.  One of my favorite games that has successfully done this is Pathologic (at least if you play as the scientifically-minded Bachelor), and while it is quite painful to play, offers some valuable lessons in atmosphere.

As with all games, and especially with games that consider themselves Christian, the mechanics should be wed to the theme. This is the fatal failing of most "Christian" games--do not let it be the same for you! Forget about all the combat and conflict-rife games which overwhelm the market and look to the more experimental edges. Games like Harvest Moon, in which the endgame goals are helping those around you (although the mechanics of this are simplistic) are a good place to start. Other posters have mentioned the adventure games of old, and these also are worth a look for inspiration (though they may contain less "gameplay" than you are used to).  Interactive fiction may even be worth a look.  Whatever the case, it is important that the players interact with other characters in primarily non-combative ways.  Pathologic is another good example when it comes to this--fighting is never a cause for joy or celebration (as audio cues remind you), and at the end of the day results in just one more death statistic.  If you play as Klara, you even spend a large part of your time atoning to show other people your innocence and good intentions.  

To me, this should be central to a Christian game. Your gameplay mechanics should be built around redemption and turning the other cheek. How this would be done should be the main question of this topic, and is not one I can claim to have the answer to. All I have is a little advice when it comes to delineating the paths your players may take through your game.  Don't make the mistake of Bioshock and deny your players the chance to make their own decisions. Repentance must come from the heart. And, should the player be playing a particularly "unrepentant" character, do not put yourself in the position of a judge.

[Feral_P]

If you want to make a game worthy of the title "Christian", I think its themes would have to be much more closely linked to Christianity than just "absolution", "redemption" or "turning the other cheek" - concepts which could not be claimed solely by Christianity.

In fact, I think the theme would have to be much more overt than that. Lewis Carol's Narnia (The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe) is pretty much entirely an allegory for Christianity, yet I would struggle to call it a Christian book and I doubt it has converted (m)any people at all.

If, however, you want to stealthily try and convert people, I would play to loose ideas such as "spirituality", which many of the non-religious subscribe to, and then have some Christian references; perhaps to encourage people into further reading.

[gabison]

One month ago, I've started to work on a religion-related game. It's closing fast to playable prototype state. Just need to finish the website and I'll make the announcement around here.
It's not a christian game nor buddhist or any other specific religion. It's about RELIGION, your religion and the fate of men.

The very basic premise of the game is: you are God. There is a religion for you (you can define your terms for it). Can you make people happy and keep your religion going?

The not-so-basic idea is a social simulator with limited interaction from the player (as God). For example, consider the following chain of imaginary situations: a war starts -> people get more afraid -> need for security (as emotion) grows -> more people get converted -> you get more faith. Bingo. With faith, which is the game's currency, you can do a number of things: make a miracle, inspire someone, change the religion's terms, etc.

Under the hood is a completely mod-able engine of graph-interacting cellular automata parts. What I want is to make a "Part 1: Monotheism" and then release packs of modules to implement all known religions. Also, anyone will be able to define modules and customize the game.

Today I've been working on the first miracle which will make into the prototype: "Raining cows". Because "raining frogs" have been done already and also, very important, because the game is a sandbox and I'm trying to find the fine line between a simulator (too serious and quite impossible to achieve) and an ironic game. I want it to be fun and light hearted and also to pass the idea that making people happy is not as easy as it seems.
The current effects of raining cows are:
- Kills some people in that spot (well... cows are heavy).
- Boosts natality rate for poor people (they can eat the cows).
- Greately boosts faith for the duration.
- Destroys hygiene infrastructure (dead, festering cows... imagine that).
- Negative effect on health for the duration.
All these effects are working already and each one of them is an example of what any modder will be able to do.

Another thing you'll be able to do, as any respectable God, is to change the rules. Let's say you allowed divorce (when you defined your religion stances), now you want to ban it. Will you inspire someone or will you send a prophet? Will you make a miracle? (something like burning tree, bush is done already) How will the people react to it? Will they lose faith or more converts will flock to your religion?

To sum it up, "God's Play" (WIP title, I'm very open to suggestions for it  ) will come soon to the only TIG forum, for critique and ideas.

[gimymblert]

http://www.ncregister.com/blog/catholic-farmville-style-facebook-game-unveiled/#ixzz1Q38E7QuB

[Painting]

I'd totally play a game where you're Jesus and the objective is the convert nonbelievers in Biblical-era Jerusalem, etc. That could be fun.

Or just straight up set it in the Crusades, and you're the Pope commanding armies of religious folks around RTS-style to kick some heretic ass. Of course that kind of defeats the point of Christianity, but it could probably sitll be fun.

[TomHunt]

I would be really interested to see/make/play a game about Buddhism.

Instead of trying to accumulate more wealth, kill everything, or whatever, the object is to make it through the world creating as little suffering as possible.  Or perhaps just a casual game where the idea/skill is to be mindful, rather than twitchy.

[Dacke]

Of course that kind of defeats the point of Christianity.

What version of Christianity? There are lots of Christians who would consider that the Christian thing to do.

[Painting]

Of course that kind of defeats the point of Christianity.

What version of Christianity? There are lots of Christians who would consider that the Christian thing to do.

I mean the ideal version of Christianity like what Jesus preached, not the bullshit kill-the-infidels versions that have sprung up over the years.

And before you say anything, yes, there are countless awful Christians. The Bible is full of contradictions and, if taken literally, results in awful Christianity. I mean the version of Christianity that is actually focussed on love for the fellow man.

I would be really interested to see/make/play a game about Buddhism.

Instead of trying to accumulate more wealth, kill everything, or whatever, the object is to make it through the world creating as little suffering as possible.  Or perhaps just a casual game where the idea/skill is to be mindful, rather than twitchy.

Makes me think - it'd be great to have a Real Lives-esque game with a bunch of abstract action sequences that represent your trials and tribulations through life. A bunch of random stuff is thrown at you and your objective is to live a life as beneficial and unselfish as possible.

[Pineapple]

I mean the ideal version of Christianity like what Jesus preached, not the bullshit kill-the-infidels versions that have sprung up over the years.

The issue is that the more literally you take the bible, the more kill-the-infidels it becomes, including the teachings of jesus. The ideal christians you're describing, pleasant as they may be, are completely ignoring most of the bible.

[Painting]

The issue is that the more literally you take the bible, the more kill-the-infidels it becomes, including the teachings of jesus. The ideal christians you're describing, pleasant as they may be, are completely ignoring most of the bible.

This is probably why I have another paragraph below the one you quoted that says exactly this.

[Sankar]

Religion deals with Spiritual and Moral values.

If you make a Game about the "history" of this or that time, then it's a historical game.
If you make a Game about the creatures/deities and nothing else, then it's a fantasy game.


I'm not a religious person, but I believe that religions should be respected.
The problem is that many people call themselves "Christian; Buddhist; Hindu" or anything, but in reality they just "Pick" parts of religion that they like and ignore the whole rest.
You can't make a Christian game without the "You gotta love God way more than anything else in the World" part, cause this is written in the Bible.


"OH BUT THE BIBLE IS FAKE, PEOPLE CHANGED THINGS AROUND, THEY REWROTE THIS AND THAT"

Yes, I can see this happening, but if you believe in this (like I do), then don't make a Christian game or better yet, don't define yourself as a Christian. Don't define yourself as anything actually.


"BUT JESUS WAS REAL! HE SAID SOME THINGS THAT CAN CHANGE THE WORLD FOR BETTER. ITS JUST THE BIBLE THAT IS A LIE.

Then, its better to make a game about his teachings, a game that teaches people the values YOU think he wanted to pass on to people. Instead of making a game about Christianity.



Christianity is a religion, it has leaders, ideologies, methodologies. You have hierarchy, power-play, history. You can't just pretend to ignore a whole part of it just to call yourself "Christian", if you don't agree with it, don't fuel it them.

And, honestly, this post is not aimed at anyone in particular. It's just my view about Religion + Games.

[Dacke]

Religion deals with Spiritual and Moral values.

For something to be a religion (and not just philosophy) it has to include beliefs in supernatural or unprovable/unproven things. Just dealing with spiritual or moral values isn't enough. Those things are analysed in better ways by (non-religious) philosophy and science.

So I would say that you have to promote something that is faith-based if you want to make a religious game. (Indirectly making it an evil game.)

[Feral_P]

What's are 'spiritual values' anyway?

[gabison]

I would be really interested to see/make/play a game about Buddhism.

Instead of trying to accumulate more wealth, kill everything, or whatever, the object is to make it through the world creating as little suffering as possible.  Or perhaps just a casual game where the idea/skill is to be mindful, rather than twitchy.

There's a small problem with any game which focuses on a specific religion: it tends to lose the fact that religion is not an abstract concept with values in itself but an institution. Take any perfect, ideal set of concepts and try to implement it on people -> results religion. The values may be in the ideal, the desires are in the people and the religion has to meet everyone in the middle.

Because it's pointless to start an argument about religion per se, let's see how we try to implement a specific religious problem in our game, God's Play.

In almost every religion, the most part of the "scriptures" come from different points in time than the period when the religion's founder is supposed to have lived. If we overlook the details, there's not much difference between reading in a hat, finding an engraved rock, having a lengthy dream or plain imagining a new text/book. If you can convince people that it's a "real" text, it has all the chances to get added to the canon.

What are the chances that a new piece will be accepted by the masses? If it meets people's expectations and desires, chances are good. In our game, we call the new information a Rule. You, as God, can decide on new rules which you'll send to the people in multiple ways. The focal point is that rules don't get picked by people automatically. The rules will have effects on the social engine and if, and only if, the new rules are in the range that people can stomach, they will increase their faith. Otherwise, they may even desert your religion.

And the number of similar design decisions is big. As long as you try to see religion from outside, most of it can be algorithmically described.

[Dacke]

The what now? Sure you can make a game about the abstract concepts that are present in a religion. And no, implementing ideal concepts does not lead to religion. That would be ideology, if anything. The unique thing with religion is the belief in supernatural things, not having "ideal" concepts (none of the do, by a long shot).

[Sankar]

Religion deals with Spiritual and Moral values.

Just dealing with spiritual or moral values isn't enough.

I disagree, believing in the concept of "spirit" is, in my opinion, an act of faith.