next »

[filosofiamanga]

Hi folks, From my limited kwnoledge, I can tell you if you want to write good stories, you must at least read the following books.

MANDATORY:
- "Dramatic writing" of Lajos Egri (It's like kwnowing the ABC of Drama)
https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=explorer&chrome=true&srcid=0B1AWX-3RIh0_ZGQ0Zjc1OTMtNTc3MC00OTFjLWFkY2YtNGNkYTI2ZDNhZWI4&hl=en

GOOD:
- "Creating Emotion in Games: The Craft and Art of Emotioneering" of David Freeman
It's good and shows how to make emotional games, very good.
http://www.amazon.com/Creating-Emotion-Games-Craft-Emotioneering/dp/1592730078

I think with those two you're good to go.
But there's these others (seek in amazon or google):
- "Digital storytelling" of Carolyn Handler Miller
- "Screenplay" of Syd Field (how to write for cinema, but very usefull if you want to be a writer)
- "Chris crawford on game design" of well... Chris crawford (How to tie a story with gameplay)
- "The hero with a thousand faces" of Joseph Campbell (It shows you why everyone first write stories about the chosen one and the hero, lol, RPG?)

These are the books I can tell you from first hand, there should be others but these will give you a good start.

PROTIPS:
+) Read, Read a lot, but read the classics and the know and osbscure masters (GABO, Shakespeare, everyone talks but no one reads, lol) (not the actual mainstream crap, lol, Twilight), read history, science, politics, economys, Poetry, math, It will make you smart and will make you write better stories.
+) Watch the classics in Cinema, it will show you how to tell a good story also (Kubrick is a god, Hitchcok, Spielberg is a genius) watch Casablanca, Spielberg movies, Dr. Strangelove, Taxi Driver.
+) Explore things you never know, like Japanese pop, Arabic music, african art, Yume nikki, paint and art history.
+) DO NOT USE Clichés, Forget about them, write them and inmediately throw them at the garbage bim. READ DRAMATIC WRITING and you'll understand.
+) Since this is about games, well... play games! (Seek in wikipedia about a genre of videogames to know the history of them, lol, that's how I knew about Cave story and Yume nikki)


Well, That's what I remember now, ask anything, ok?

[filosofiamanga]

 
Since I just type this in other post, I just feel like I should copy here.

 
Lol, It's so funny to read this, I don't want to sound as a troll, because I'm not, but I think everyone here talks about something they (to be sincere) don't have a clue about what are you talking about?

Lol, Writing for videogames is COMPLETELY DIFERENT from a Book, a Movie or whoever you put me as example of good writing.
In literature, I can only name Three examples of writing (books) that can be suited for videogames:
///+++///
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypertext_fiction
Hypertext fiction is the closest the literature can be with videogames, It's in a blurry line with videogames, as visual novels (lol, lot of echi and H-games) proves.
///+++///
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Choose_Your_Own_Adventure
Choose your own adventure I think everyone played it as a kid, another way to show you how complex is the story in a player's driven adventure.
///+++///
Now, THE ONLY, THE CHOSEN ONE, whoever...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rayuela
Rayuela of Julio Cortazar, It shows that videogame writing is posible, a book that you can read in any order (There's like three basic ways -orders- to read it in the book's index).
If you haven't read it, you can't speak about writing for videogames (so STFU).
You always talk about novels writers, but I told you: Fuck them! I think any TV show writer, movie screenwriter or novel writer would be fucked up trying to write a book like Julio Cortazar 50 years ago.

  *********
But the problem with videogames is even more complex, even if you make something like Rayuela you would suck making it as a videogame, why... because of a simple word:

INTERACTIVITY

Remember this: A GAME DOESN'T NEED STORY, ONLY INTERACTIVITY
Yeah, remember: most great games of all times doesn't have a great story:
-) Fucking TETRIS, man!
-) Pac-man
-) Any Fucking Street Fighter II clon (kof 98/2002, EFZ).
-) Any racing game (lol, Mario Kart)
-) First Doom.
-) Any sports game (lol, soccer, Maiden, NFL)
-) Age of Empire II.
-) Lol, Any shoot'em up (Halo is a FPS, shoot'em up is something like Ikaruga)
-) Mario Bross (Super Mario World/ 3)
-) Nintendogs, wii fit plus.
-) Any 70-NES games.
-) Contra (NES)
-) Metroid (SNES/NES)
-) Driver 2 (psone)
-) The sims
Any more examples?, yeah, my favorites:
-) Castlevania SOTN (psone)
One of my favorites games ever, why?... It was non-linear, It gives you a free liberty and didn't have any cutscenes in the middle of the game. For me there's no better example and definition of what a good videogame is and should be.
-) Final Fantasy VI (SNES).
Why... well, because of non-linear gameplay, even if it was a linear story, but It gives you a free liberty and didn't have any cutscenes in the middle of the game, only dialogs. It's non-linear (remember... after the world is destroyed and you can choose which character you want to rescue with celes in a non-linear order).
-) Freaking MINECRAFT!!!
There's no better example why a videogame doesn't need a linear story and linear path.
Just non-linear gameplay and 100% interactivity. Lol, I wonder why it's so popular.

Tell me, What's the diference between watching a walkthrough in youtube of any linear story driven game like Metal Gear solid 4, Uncharted 2, Final Fantasy XIII?
I told you: It's the Interactivity that makes a game, not their fucking cut-scenes that makes them an interactive movie.

I can tell you, I love some game's designers crazy idea that tells that the actual story of a game is made by the gameplay (yes, the players playing)
An example?
I can't think any writer could script this:



Yeah, Imagine that fight as a RPG boss, a writer couldn't designed (pre-scripted) and make it as amazing as is in the video.
Another example?



That's why I love this game, each time I play that game is diferent (the story is diferent), yeah, we call it "speed run" but actually it's the story of the player acting or reenacting that game.
I can tell you the same with another final example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QRnhHvHexsM
Now you understand?
A story in a videogame is made by the actual decisions of the player, not how good the event's are placed and his shitty dialog.
Do you need any probe? Well... what about Metroid M? or trying to play Dead space the 3rd time?

****/////****
****/////****
That's why I told you a game writer needs no only to know how to write, but also needs to know how to design, because story and gameplay are in reality one.
When you do that, when you design is based on a concept and you farm the idea, make it grow, you can make really strong things:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3o0HFXPfco
Some people cry playing that game, other's didn't, some say it make them appreciated their lifes... blah, blah, blah.
Maybe the game is poor, low graphics, low interactivity. But It really shows when a game is well designed around an idea, fusing gameplay mechanics and USING THE WRITING SKILL to give them meaning that videogames shine as a medium, not just cloning others games or putting togheter gameplay mechanics that doesn't fit togheter well.
Other example?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=boPHncFbmII
Now you see the real power of videogames, they shine when you don't try to make them as movies, well because... THEY'RE NOT FUCKING MOVIES, THEY'RE INTERACTIVE (and non-linear).

///****////
Yeah, also the writer need to know how to pseudocode, he doesn't need to be a programmer, but he need's at least to make a design (pseudocode) that could be easily implemented by the coders of the game.
Yeah, this part is important, it allow to the writer to create things like events engine (not just brench trees dialogs) and to ask things like this:
-) "Realistic NPC behaviour" (Seek in google, there's a lot of academic writings about how to implement that in a engine or game)

****/////****
///****/////
Well, I think you understand now that videogames need writers, that:
MANDATORY
-) that can design games (so they can make non-linear stories and mix gameplay with story)
-) that know how to code at least a Tetris game (they don't need to be programmers, but they need to understand the engineering part of making events, posibilities and limits of the engine, just to understand technical stuff in the videogame)
NOT MANDATORY, but extremely usefull
-) can at least know to draw (so they can give a better idea for the designers and artist of the game)
-) To know about History, science, art history, literature, politics, economics (Well... to make the world and character background)
-) know about music (Well to expresse better the feeling of the scene to the composers of the game, telling them: "This should sound like this")

Seek a book called "Creating Emotion in Games: The Craft and Art of Emotioneering" of David Freeman for more info about writing for videogames.

***////****
***////****

That's why just hiring a book writer or (cinema) writer is not just enough, and There's this feeling that games cannot have good story, because generally all the team dev doesn't know about the special needs of a game story.

****////****
If you want copy paste this shit to your blog, other forums, etc.
made by Filosofiamanga
Sorry if I sound like a troll, to much 4chan, lol.

[brog]

Strunk & White's Elements of Style is fantastic.

[filosofiamanga]

I just copy this from my post in the post called "making interesting enemy characters"
But I'll just copy paste again, because It's good to people to see it:

 
I'm not a profesional writer, but I could tell you a few things I learned in the time:

FIRST:
-) Choose the subject of the story (Let's say the "theme" will be revenge)

-)Then create the avatar (But create it around the subject, give him an emotional need that motivate him to act, could be that he needs to pay for the surgery of his mother and he needs money, so he enters the army... or It's a girl who is trying to be appreciated in her school so she will start learning magic... NOT USE CLICHES like trying to conquer the world or I'm evil because well... I'm evil.

-)After you created the player's character (avatar), create an obstacle (not an enemy, an obstacle, like Poverty) that goes with the subject of the story.

-)With the obstacle, makes an antagonist that oposes the player but not because he's evil (REMEMBER, forget the clichés), but because the player it's trying to archieve something that will cause a harm or goes against the interest of the antagonist. (An example: The player will try to farm the biggest chicken to win the country fair so the antagonist wish to gain it too)

-)After you have those two character you will create the player and the antagonist team, designing the relationship of each character (Let's say the player has a sister but the sister is the girlfriend of the antagonist)

-)When designing characters, choose 4 traits of their personality (like: lazy, arrogant, vicious, sadistic) and some other characteristics (like: He likes to play baseball) and USE THIS TO CREATE THEIR DIALOG and BEHAVIOUR. (remember a smart guy that likes poetry will speak in Old english, a Cab man in NEW YORK maybe will speak very "vulgar" and cursing diferent than a priest)

-)Remember: When designing a team, neither the antagonist and the player should have an advantage, they should be equal, a soccer match (or fighting game) is fun because It's balanced.

-)Another rule: They should have the will to fight until the end, they should die before giving up (both the antagonist and player)

-)After that design their clothes based on their traits and the other characteristics.

-)Design also their movements, magic, like their clothes, maybe create a reason why he has that power, spell (a little of background).

AFTER THAT CREATE THE STORY.
-)With the character, create three steps or stages in the story.

-)First, The introduction: The world and characters is presented, their relationships, etc.
It should be the first 10-20% of the game.

-)Second, make a twist: Something happens that creates the emotional need of the character to act (not mandatory that the antagonist creates this situation)

-)After that, create the journey of the hero trying to solucionate his emotional need and the antagonist oposing him, clashing until you get the final showdown (CLIMAX).

-)After the Final Fight, you spend the last 10-20% of the game, showing the consequences of the story.

-)A Last rule: When making an scene, like a dialog, always think about creating conflict (clashing between characters), make them fight in the dialog (It helps to develop characters), make the characters in the dialog or acting throw darts to each other (in words or actions, remember when you joke with your friends?)

Well, I think that's all.

[Toom]

filosophiamanga, there are some general techniques for dramatic writing that will carry over regardless of what medium you're writing for. Of course, every medium has its own conventions, but there tends to be a lot of crossover, dependent on what you're aiming for. Good drama is good drama is good drama.

Games don't need a story, you're right. Some games would be poorer for attempting to bolt a narrative on there. But a good story can, when properly developed and deployed, hugely enhance a game. You say "lol all shoot-em-ups"; I say "fucking Half-Life Jesus Christ what is wrong with you" - a game which, of course, also proves that cutscenes are not a necessary part of storytelling, and that a linear story is not necessarily the enemy of good design (although there are some excellent examples of storytelling in the medium that isn't strictly linear; Deus Ex springs immediately to mind). I also think you must've played a different version of FFVI than me; you're given the freedom to piss about for a long time, but the story is absolutely there; plus, well, I don't mean to insult your intelligence by stating the obvious, but dialogue is writing. "Writing" is not just plot. Have you even played Portal? It's as good an example as any of a game which would've been an excellent anyway, but is elevated to the extraordinary by its writing.

Your "requirements" for videogame writers is also completely spurious. A writer does not have to be able to do any of that shit beyond writing; it helps if they have an understanding of the other processes, but technical ability is not a prerequisite. Hell, all you really need is communication; writers, artists, designers, programmers, riffing off and developing each others' ideas, telling each other what does and doesn't work, listening and reworking stuff that won't work when they're told. One good reason you have different people concentrating on different elements is so that you don't need one guy who can halfway do a bit everything; you can get five guys who are really good at what they do, and have them work together.

Jesus, I could do this all day, but maybe some helpful resources would be a better use of this thread. The aforementioned Campbell book, The Hero With A Thousand Faces, is a brilliant piece of work. Stephen King is a fucking hack, but he's a very successful hack who knows a thing or two about suspense and structure, and his On Writing is surprisingly informative. These are, of course, quite general; but the best way to become a good writer for games is to concentrate on being a good writer first and foremost.

[s0]

You say "lol all shoot-em-ups"; I say "fucking Half-Life Jesus Christ what is wrong with you" - a game which, of course, also proves that cutscenes are not a necessary part of storytelling,

I think we've discussed this about a million times on TIGS already, but Half-Life does have cutscenes.

[filosofiamanga]

filosophiamanga, there are some general techniques for dramatic writing that will carry over regardless...

Sorry, but that's FPS, I mean shootem ups like Ikaruga and Touhou.

FFVI did have non-linear things, That's why I said a non-linear design of a linear story (remember when the party falls from the waterfall and you must choose with the Mimiga which part of the 3 teams you have to play)
I have to play Portal to check it out.

The other skills... well, I say "NOT mandatory, but very usefull". I say you don't need to be good to be the artist or the coder of the game, I say you need to at least have practice a little to gain understanding of the craft.
Do you know why Metal Gear 4 is so great?, because the designer's team indeed take a military course. (seek in youtube the making of MG4)
When you have a team of people that only specializes, you get good results, but I would say a designer can learn a lot of the others crafts (not to make those jobs, but to be more "aware of the product"), so the result will gain overall if all the people in the team know a little enough to make suggestions to the others team members (You think a non-musician like a coder could tell what's wrong about a song?, like telling him: "Ok, this is good, but maybe you should change to C key" or telling an artist: "Ok, but you need to add more frames here to make it more smooth")

BUT A GAME WRITER NEEDS TO KNOW ABOUT GAME DESIGN
A game story is diferent from a linear medium, as books, that's why It's not enough to just know how to write, The diference between books and games is like trying to compose music from a pop band to a symphonic (It needs something else besides just playing an instrument or writing a book).
I consider the game's design should be made by the same guy (or team), not just a designer and a writer (It's the same with the comics, it's better if the same guy draws and writes).
I already explain why the game writer should be also the game designer, well... because game mechanics and story goes tied togheter.

Whith the programming, it's good so the writer doesn't try to use things like "Real time voice instructions" instead of emoticons.
I don't say that the writer should be an engineer, I say he should be able to code a FUCKING TETRIS! using a fucking tutorial from google, and understand things like boolean values and variables and IF statements (just pseudocode).
Well, If tetris is too hard He should learn RPG maker that teaches the same.

About art, history, economics, politics... Well, How are you going to produce highly advance and complex stories (like a Political story), if you don't know something as Rhetoric?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rethoric
How are you going to make a story that tells about the Darfur genocide (great subject for a game) if you never has read about it?
http://www.darfurisdying.com/

You need to read about those subjects if you want to write something mature in intelectual terms (No saying: Oh, MK 9 is so hardcore because it has blood but It has the inteligence of a 13 year old boy)

To say a writer needs only to write It's like saying that everyone can be CG-talk top member just scribling lines over a paper and calling a 5 year old drawing a masterpiece.
Or that without proper study anyone can write a symphony.
Even Harry Potter is Shit in literature (and It's better than any Final Fantasy), ask that to any good teacher in creative writing in a good university.
No, writing as any art requires training and study, hard work, learning from the masters.
To say that writing needs just writing is like saying that Justin Bieber is better than Frank Sinatra, lol.

Sorry to sound like that, It's just that people seems to underestimate the hard work that is creating a good story (like composing a song or making a painting).

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

there are shoot'em'ups with good story though -- starfox and starfox 64, etc. -- i'm sure shmup fans could name many more -- shmups don't *need* good stories, but when they have it it's a nice bonus

also i'd recommend learning how to write from actual writings, not from books about how to write. in other words, if you want to write like, i dunno, neil gaiman, then read and study his books, and think about them, and practice. don't just read books about how to write books. that's as useless as learning how to make videogames by reading books about creating videogames and neglecting to study videogames you admire and neglecting to practice creating them. books can be a good supplement, but 90% of the time should be spent in actual study of works you admire and in practice, not in reading theory. probably nobody ever became a world-class anything by reading books about how to become one rather than by studying what they want to do on their own and practicing doing it

[filosofiamanga]

there are shoot'em'ups with good story though -- starfox and starfox 64, etc. -- i'm sure shmup fans could name many...

Actually you say a true, but a half-true.
To actually become a master, you need three things:
1) To know the theory (reading books about writing)
2) To practice (making your own stories)
3) To study the old masters

You need to know the theory, to become "aware" of the craft.
You remember this scene?
http://www.anyclip.com/movies/schindlers-list/girl-in-red-coat/
use this if that doesn't work:
http://www1.teachertube.com/viewVideo.php?title=Schindlers_List&video_id=20024
That's one of the epic peaks of cinema as a medium and art, a truly great scene, one of the best, made by one genius.
If you only read or watch movies, you could feel the emotion of the scene, but never be aware of the tools that made it posible, so you'll never be able to replicate it and coundn't understand it fully how it was made.

In that scene:
*) It starts with Oscar watching the nightmare of the war. Right there the character is wondering himself about his convictions, that is his character arc is growing.

*) After that It shows the image of the massacre, people making crazy stuff, It shows a raw image of war (making stir your stomach). But It doesn't end, a little Red girl (It's a metaphor for Little Red Riding Hood in the middle of the wild forest and wolfs) walks like nothing, that's a shocking image that creates a powerfull image in the viewer.
The Feelings of the inocence and goodness clash with the harm of the surroundings, the evil of the nazis, the suffering of the people, The scene also play with our feeling of "Big brother" wishing to protect the girl that clash with our fear of death.
That's genuinely expressed using the colors, so the scene has this big contrast no just in color theory but also in emotions.

*) After that, Schindler notes the little girl, It shock him and help him to gently move across his character arc, It's important, because that's a turning point in the movie where he starts to help the jews.

*) After that we see her wife, who is used to point again to Schindler (reusing the take with a diferent twist), we see him thinking (character arc).

*) We hear shoots that increase our feeling of fear.

*) Did I forgot to say that the music is well chosen to expresse the ideas of the scene?

*) In the take of the execution of these lot of people in line, serves several functions: It makes us fear the scene, makes us feel the raw of the scene, that people killed served to makes us feel supporters of the jews and We see the nazis doing evil stuff (making us to hate them) to helpless people (a narrative device), In the movie we feel they're evil, well... because they do evil stuff, not like Team Rocket.

*) We see the wife suffer and cry, we feel sympathizer with her, that gives her an emotional deepness (Wow, I wonder why we cared about these characters).

See how much work and though are put in those magic scenes?

Like reading a book, you can write very well, but you never know how to replicate that scene or never know why a story is good or bad.
If you only read your favorite author, you'll never be able to surpass them, because your works will be like trying to hit the piñata with the closed eyes, maybe one them hit the spot (a great story) but after so much wasted energy.
And even if you make a good story, you'll never know if It has mistakes, because you'll never study the "theory"

Like I told you, practice alone is not enough, theory alone is not enough, reading is not enough alone, you need to do all three togheter.

A good analogy is this: The masters are like watching the plates of the buildings, Practice is like walking and Theory is like knowing the address, withouth all you'll never know how to get to home.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

as a counter-example, very few of 'the masters' at writing read books on how to write. those books didn't exist back then. e.g. hemingway didn't sit down and read 'how to write' books, he had to learn by himself

[filosofiamanga]

as a counter-example, very few of 'the masters' at writing read books on how to write. those books didn't exist...

Yeah, you can get a great level just by practicing, but There's this feeling that while a musician needs practice (years) to make his first concert, everyone can write a story (in three months) and call it a masterpiece (Twilight).

Generally the Grand masters fight over a piece until they feel it's finished, like making a sculpture.

[Philtron]

filosofiamanga, your posts are full of words and emotions but not much else.

You say games don't need story, they only need interactivity¹. This is like saying books don't need story, they only need words. Which is true and that's why we have textbooks, manuals, encyclopedias, and the dictionary. So, sure, games don't need story and books don't need story, but they're a lot more fun when they have it.

In your posts you show your lack of literature knowledge when you mention Cortazar's book (I preferred Cronopios y Famas) and claim it is the literature closest to a game. Many other books are interactive including House of Leaves by Danielewski, Infinite Jest by Wallace, and the dictionary... oh... my... god... the dictionary is a video game!!! And you should look up ergodic literature.

You have a lot of opinions on writing, filosofiamanga, but the thing I paid close attention to your own writing. I understand that none of us put our best writing foot forward when submitting a post, but your posts are travesties. I mean they're rambling, schizophrenic, at some points incoherent, and in general just a clusterf*** of loosely related ideas. I didn't read most of what you wrote because it was such self-serving nonsense; your only purpose in writing this is to feel intelligent by vomiting your opinions onto a forum.

A word of advice:

Do you know why Metal Gear 4 is so great?

No, I don't, because it wasn't that good.
So, now your argument is lost, because you posed your audience a question and your audience disagrees with you. In a persuasive piece of writing you should never ask your audience a question, not even a hypothetical question, because then you give them permission to interact with your writing in unintended ways—oh my god! Is badly written persuasive writing a video game!!!

1. Here are the rules for how to read my post:
Black words are meant to be read when the post is read as a whole
Blue words can be read together separately from the rest of the post. They represent my main points without examples or ellaboration.
Orange words can be read together and are just me belittling filosofwhatever
Also there's a secret easter egg somewhere in there.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

while that is true there are kinder ways to say it -- and he's not really as bad as neoshaman used to be. my guess is that it's an 'english as a second language' thing

[Philtron]

while that is true there are kinder ways to say it -- and he's not really as bad as neoshaman used to be. my guess is that it's an 'english as a second language' thing

I had forgotten about that possibility, I admit. I was mainly trying to make a loosely interactive post, but perhaps I was too harsh. I'm leaving it "as is" for posterity.

[filosofiamanga]

filosofiamanga, your posts are full of words and emotions but not much else....

"Me produce mucho conmiseración y lastima que la presente le haya ofendido, le ofrezco todas mis sinceras disculpas; en este lugar de discusión, sagrado para los intereses de los autoproclamados indies y creadores de experiencias multimedias, me disculpo de mi autoelitismo y ceguera que pudiera "entorpecer" nuestra comunicación como hijos de Dios. Mi propio conocimiento ha hecho que me sienta tal vez prolijico, confiado y desdeñable en mi posición, lo que me ha impedido dar una opinión más certera, concisa y altamente argumentada, aunque preferiria dejar de escribir con un pequeño estilo burgues y bucolico, propio de epocas ya olvidadas"
***
(Yeah, too much Dostoieski and Victorian bullshit in spanish).
(ENGLISH: I apologize from the misunderstanding between us, blah, blah, blah)
Sorry if I sound a little illogical and "amateur" in my writing, and even proud-hearthed, but English It's my second languaje and maybe I have used ilogicals forms (that are logical in Spanish) or make mistakes or double meaning that are not obvious to me.
Besides, This is not serious writing, and if I were serious, I'll get an Editor (English native).
Second, I don't have a fucking clue about what color (color's meaning) to use to diferentiate paragraphs.

books doesn't need story, just words.
Well, have you read automatic writing? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_writing
Right there, you just write sentences without stoping, so even without a traditional idea (or ortodox way of writing) you can write.
But there's another example (I think you know it):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exquisite_corpse
Yeah, a story can be composed of just words, not following a logical order.

Yeah, I haven't read those books, because I can't know about all the works in literature (I prefer reading Didacticism works than poetics) and I'm just waiting to enter to study Literature in my local university.
You mention them, I say I forgot to put Text adventures.
I didn't know about ergodic literature, thanks!

About vomiting my opinions: Oh, no, you discover, my secret plan to spam this forum!

Metal Gear 4 not being so good?! and you say I don't have arguments?, Oh, good irony...
Lol, the game that get's perfect score on Famitsu (40/40), A 10/10 on Meristation, Loaded, Gamespot, IGN, Gamespot and 9/10 on GamePro? (Are you serious?)
Wikipedia: "Guns of the Patriots received widespread critical acclaim, garnering perfect reviews and Game of the Year awards from several major gaming publications, including GameSpot, which claimed that the game is "technically flawless". The game has been a financial driving force for Konami, helping the Metal Gear franchise reach 5 million units in the financial year of 2009"
Not good?, The only complain was that the game is an interactive movie more than a game (has too much cutscenes).

Well, I undestand you said you hated me and my writings, but you also didn't come with very strong arguments.

[filosofiamanga]

I had forgotten about that possibility, I admit. I was mainly trying to make a loosely interactive post, but perhaps I was too harsh. I'm leaving it "as is" for posterity.

Let's forget about that.



Here it's the making of Metal Gear Solid 4 and It shows the vast amount of detail that game has, I haven't played Mass Effect or Uncharted yet but I don't think I'll see more love in a AAA game than this.
In that video, we can see why I said a game writer should experience another things like Drawing, playing an instrument, coding. In The development of MG4 they show the designers taking a military course.

Remember: Not to become good in that craft, but to gain understanding about it.

[Philtron]

The "making of MGS4" movie is irrelevant; it doesn't matter. How much love is put into a game doesn't matter. The only thing that matters is the end result. I played the end result; it wasn't good. This is an opinion.

As for the reviews: there is so much politics in the review world that any score they give a game is meaningless.

books doesn't need story, just words.
Well, have you read automatic writing? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_writing
Right there, you just write sentences without stoping, so even without a traditional idea (or ortodox way of writing) you can write.
But there's another example (I think you know it):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exquisite_corpse
Yeah, a story can be composed of just words, not following a logical order.

Okay, this is what I'm talking about. I know this isn't serious writing, but what is this? Are you agreeing with me? Disagreeing with me? I can't even tell. You just throw a bunch of words up there and I don't even know what I'm supposed to take away from them. I don't think this particular point is a result of language barrier; ja rozumiem jak to jest pisac w obcym jenzyku.

[genka]

I'm not sure the words "too harsh" can apply to a person who thinks of MGS4 as an example of strong writing and suggests you watch movies to improve your own.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

i'm pretty sure those words are too harsh for anyone. i wouldn't call my worst enemies those things

[filosofiamanga]

The "making of MGS4" movie is irrelevant; it doesn't matter. How much love is put into a game doesn't matter...

Yes, anyone can have it's own opinion, you though it wasn't good, other people can disagree.
But It's suposed that reviews are one way to "measure" the quality of a product.
I think wining awards and being highly apreciated by the critics and fans alike (I have a friend who think also that game was too good), also it's the highest selling game on PS3.
Those are not opinions, those are facts.
That's why I made that question, I knew you cannot argue against it without arguments.

***
Sorry, I didn't put much attention, but I agree with you in the part that books doesn't even need a story, maybe you though I was going to disagree, I just said that "even" in literature (poetics) where you generally though that you need a story, you really doesn't need one.
I re-read again your post, you said "but they're more fun when they have it"
I say: wait, wait a little, that's highly dependant on the genre, by example imagine a soccer game where there's dialogs in the middle of the match and trying to discover a backstory.
In most cases, a game doesn't need a story, what It needs it's ambientation (ambientation is not the same as a story, just to be clear), think of any NES-SNES game (Mario, metroid, castlevania, Top Gear).
The problem (and my problem) is that games are interactivity and when a story is not tied to it and It's separated from the actual gameplay and make you stop playing (as in cutscenes) It's distracting and the game suffer from it.
Maybe you're thinking of some games (Halo?, half life) to counter-argue, But I also have a problem with them, In most games with good story their gameplay mechanics are not designed to express or resemble the actual story (like Punching your girlfriend in the face in GTAIV) they just evolve around an old and proven structure. Also their stories are just linear, forcing you to move on a linear path, taking your freedom with it (and being less interactive in that way).
The BIG problem is that the gameplay mechanics are not tied with the story nor resemble it and the story is just "an ornament" for a bunch of gameplay mechanics borrowed from a genre cannon (Halo, CoD, and Half life, diferent story but very same gameplay). In those games, the story is not interactive and you cannot change it in a significant way (not all games, remember Ultima, maybe Fable), that's why I said in most cases the ambientation is good enough.
If a videogame is INTERACTIVITY, then the story should be interactive and tied with the gameplay, otherwise It just will be a nice ornament to some players, but without a real importance in the game (like Campaign mode in the FPS and RTS, some players never play campaing, they play in multiplayer).
Because a story in a videogame should be interactive, the player should have the freedom to presence it completely or not (not just being mandatory, it takes away the freedom of interaction).
In most games, the story is like a door (remember Other M?, Halo 1?) that open and close areas, maps and powers, used to control the advance (and timeflow) of the player in the game.
You said the games are more fun with a story, but what you really mean it's that the game has more details to uncover, but you can do that too with a good ambientation (Castlevania SOTN).
When People talks about story in videogames, they generally talk about a Campaing or Story Mode, arguing about those stories It's like arguing about the painting in a car.
You said I just vomited words in the post, but this time I tried to give arguments (maybe not strong enough).

I'm not sure the words "too harsh" can apply to a person who thinks of MGS4 as an example of strong writing and suggests you watch movies to improve your own.

Actually, MG4 was a nominee in best writing in the 9th annual Game Developers Choice Awards (2009).
Maybe it's not the best and has it's flaws, but actually the writing of that game it's good, and It's one of the better examples of interactive movies (linear games with cutscenes).

I say: you must watch movies, but not all movies, watch the better examples of the medium.
Seek here: http://www.filmsite.org/mrshowbz.html Top 100 better movies all time.
I didn't tell you: watch Twiligh, Dragon Ball Evolution or even Harry Potter, I told you: watch Taxi Driver and Chinatown, Dr. Strangelove is excelent. If you cannot learn something good from those movies to use in games, I suggest that don't become a game writer, become something else (coder, 3d modeler, animator, etc).