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TIGSource ForumsCommunityTownhallForum IssuesArchived subforums (read only)CreativeWritingSeriously, OBVIUS books that you must read if you want to become a good writer.
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Author Topic: Seriously, OBVIUS books that you must read if you want to become a good writer.  (Read 15236 times)
filosofiamanga
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« Reply #40 on: May 23, 2011, 05:43:10 PM »

i don't really think any of the games you just mentioned have good stories -- mario or heavy rain or karateka. i never really got attached to any of those characters...

Karateka and Mario has good stories if we saw game's story as something diferent than the story in books or movies.
In those games, the story is good enough (Although those are not the best stories) to support the gameplay, that's why they're good game's stories.
Their focus is on interactivity, that's why stories for games are diferent than for movies, also explain why videogames make shitty movies, because of the diference of focus (Interactivity - Action/Characters/Drama)

Super Mario Bross is 100% interactivity (except if you take into account the end of the levels).
Karateka is also interactivity but It make you feel a cinematic experience.
Why so good?, because each time you play, it's completely diferent (like watching a good movie again) and like I told you, their game's stories (speed run) are good if you see game's stories as something diferent.

FF 4 is one of my favorites FF.
Something good I see in the video, it's that we fear Golbez and feel he's really strong is because we fight with him (Gameplay) and He rapes us using the Gameplay (A boss battle), Why It's so great to be with Rydia again?, well... is because She's in the gameplay, we can see now she has new abilities like the Godlike new summons.
Also in that FF they use the music in an interactive way (that is, responding to the player actions).
Yes! We feel so good when Rydia recover the team, because we can use her.

About Metroid: Yes, Metroid! (I have to finish it).
Why we fear the boss is going to kill us, because He is gonna kill us using the battle (Gameplay, even if it's final attack is prewritten) and we can lose.
Yes, we feel gratitud with the little baby jellyfish, because it recharged our life points (again, using gameplay), why do we fear when the boss recover it's breath again?, because the baby jellyfish haven't recover us all life and we want just a little more time to recover full life.
The boss kill the baby jellyfish, we feel angry (attacking some of my friends?, I'll make you pay), but the sacrifice of the baby gives us super strengh, so we feel the desire to revenge, so we feel stronger, we feel invulnerable, we feel awesome!
And after that awesome boss battle, It start everything to fall, they use a simple device to make us fear... a time clock! (GAMEPLAY).
And when you finish it... you feel great because the planet explodes.

I told you, that was a superb example of a videogame, story told by the gameplay, I wonder why gamers seem to think it as a classic.
Although Metroid for SNES would make a shitty movie, because a game story is diferent than a movie story.

Lol, reading wikipedia I found a lot of info about Cortana, lol, I wonder why I didn't know about all of this...
« Last Edit: May 23, 2011, 05:50:23 PM by filosofiamanga » Logged
filosofiamanga
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« Reply #41 on: May 23, 2011, 06:20:22 PM »

Why is so important the gameplay...

Well, Nintendo is the expert in making awesome games that are enjoyed by everyone.
What is their secret?:

A little view on Zelda:



Other Zelda example:



A little on Mario:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QsKe_dw8kMU

Do you think you're an old gamer?, Think again:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nq8EhGJGQm4
Do you wonder who will buy Wii Fit?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2u3XIvDcS1E&feature=related

That's the reason they have so many fans.
Because they can be played by everyone, even gamers that cannot read, when they grow up, they'll say they love nintendo games and will bough more nintendo games.

Why we should care about Casual gamers?
Well, because everyone started as a casual.

This is too good (95 years old lady playing Halo):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GR9allAs8k8&feature=related
Yeah, I wonder if those gamers will remember about Halo story more than they care about the gameplay.

EDIT: Another good reason to focus on gameplay instead of long dialogs is that the game is easier to play that way for people that doesn't speak English nor Japanese.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2011, 07:29:38 PM by filosofiamanga » Logged
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« Reply #42 on: May 24, 2011, 02:33:43 PM »

I also pass through it, It's like every 10 year old kid drawing a hand stabbed by a knife-sword. It's something unconscious.

 Shocked         WTF
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« Reply #43 on: May 25, 2011, 10:45:25 AM »

This is turning out to be one of the funniest thread at TIGsource. It's almost like I'm watching a slow schizophrenic breakdown Crazy
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Tiderion
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« Reply #44 on: May 26, 2011, 07:40:13 PM »

This is turning out to be one of the funniest thread at TIGsource. It's almost like I'm watching a slow schizophrenic breakdown Crazy
Yeah...

I'm giving up on this one.
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starsrift
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« Reply #45 on: May 26, 2011, 10:28:47 PM »

I just stopped in to point out that you shouldn't dismiss writers like Stephen King, Stephanie Meyer, or my own favourites to slam - JK Rowling and RA Salvatore. All of these are "hack" genre writers, and all of them are extremely successful. Obviusly, they are not doing it wrong, and therefore it is worth reading pop authors to figure out why they are popular and what they are doing right, rather than to hold them up to some arbitrary standard of "good" writing.

Outside of academia, "Good" writing is writing that reaches an audience and connects with them, not writing that pleases a professor tucked away in a prestigious university.
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filosofiamanga
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« Reply #46 on: May 27, 2011, 12:16:49 PM »

I just stopped in to point out that you shouldn't dismiss writers like Stephen King, Stephanie Meyer, or my own favourites to slam - JK Rowling and RA Salvatore. All of these are "hack" genre writers, and all of them are extremely successful. Obviusly, they are not doing it wrong, and therefore it is worth reading pop authors to figure out why they are popular and what they are doing right, rather than to hold them up to some arbitrary standard of "good" writing.

Outside of academia, "Good" writing is writing that reaches an audience and connects with them, not writing that pleases a professor tucked away in a prestigious university.

Yeah, they're succesfull writers that reach and make happy a demographic (It can be young kids, grow up mens or womens, old people, fangirls). In literature you can write about anything and be happy, even some people would like your writings and will buy your books.

You have a point in that a good book is one that reaches an audience and connects with them, I think that's the entire reason why someone write a book.

But that doesn't mean the literarian critique should be dissmiss and forgotten because It doesn't matter what you write since you're making people happy.
The critique is important because It gives reason to an artist to improve and to recognize his flaws in his works.
That's why critique should be made in a responsible way, not just Bashing some work just because you didn't like it.

I like Harry Potter, It's a fun series of books that kids enjoy, It reaches their imagination and gives them a great adventure.

But Twilight is another story, you must be inside a very specific demographic (girls) to fucking enjoy the book. I read the summary of the books, and I don't know how much experience writing have Stephanie Meyer, but from what I read She's at the same level that fandom (fanfic) writers have.
Another topic of discussion and hate is that she "broke" the cannon of the vampires, making them like Metrosexuals in a gay parade instead of the scary look that most people have on them (monsters, dark enemys, blood suckers) like in Blade or Vanhellsing.
If you ask me, Vampires should be like in Castlevania SOTN: Die Monster, you don't belong in this world..., when I watch the movie I die a little inside after seeing the main vampire taking a sun bath inside the forest and shining (WTF?).
I tried to watch the movie, It sucks!, I coun't saw it entirely (I just watched until Bella gets a date in the house of the vampires to meet the family and they're talking in the kitchen) mainly because the entire cast is Made of SHY people (bella, the vampire, the father, the vampire's family), they seem scare to talk, the only character I remember I liked was the chinese friend of Bella.
Like I told you, you must be inside of a very specific target to enjoy the movie and books, like the people who like Echi in Anime.
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starsrift
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« Reply #47 on: May 27, 2011, 01:20:40 PM »

But Twilight is another story, you must be inside a very specific demographic (girls) to fucking enjoy the book. I read the summary of the books, and I don't know how much experience writing have Stephanie Meyer, but from what I read She's at the same level that fandom (fanfic) writers have.

Some adult women enjoy Twilight as well. Meyer has also succeeded in becoming not merely successful, but wildly successful where dozens of published and hundreds of unpublished writers in her genre have not. Obviusly this is not merely due to genre choice.

Spoiler: She describes feelings very, very well. Many other modern writers could do well to take some tips from her writing style - but not at the expense of their own, of course.
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« Reply #48 on: May 27, 2011, 03:52:12 PM »

From what I understand Meyer is pretty much the ultimate pulp romance novel writer.
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ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)
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« Reply #49 on: May 27, 2011, 05:19:58 PM »

maybe she was the first to combine the 'vampire' with the 'romance' genres? or did anne rice do that first?
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« Reply #50 on: May 27, 2011, 06:48:08 PM »

Quote
But that doesn't mean the literarian critique should be dissmiss and forgotten because It doesn't matter what you write since you're making people happy.

If the "literarian" format doesn't work as well as the Stephen King format when you're telling your story, then it's simply not the most effective way of telling it. Maybe it's just poor translation, but I have a hunch that what you're calling literarian format is actually just a form of simplification. Trying to make everyone sound like Charles Dickens or Shakespeare is a way of dumbing things down for academics, changing a story into something that archetypal professor types would feel socially comfortable reading, but that others might shy away from. It's pandering to a niche market, and in this regard it's no different than Stephanie Meyer's girly writing for girls.

I've been reading through your ideas. I don't know, you seem a little overconfident about your take on writing. For one thing, you probably shouldn't think of it in terms of 'leveling up,' or in terms of 'good/bad,' or in terms of 'which audience is better.' You're the only audience that will matter. It's like Bukowski said: writing a book is like smoking a cigarette. Writing is the drag. That's for you. Publication is the ash. That's for the tray.

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« Reply #51 on: May 28, 2011, 04:07:36 PM »

I found Twilight much more enjoyable when I started imagining that Bella was a sandwich.

(The problem with Twilight is that Bella is just about the most horrible character to ever exist, yet gets no literary comeuppance - no just deserts! However-many-pages of some dozy bint swanning around being self-absorbed and judgemental, and having some guy fall at her feet for no reason other than she smells good as a meatball sub.)
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« Reply #52 on: May 30, 2011, 04:36:02 AM »

Does anyone here think that studying riddles could also help in writing interesting stories unique to games?
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ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)
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« Reply #53 on: May 30, 2011, 07:38:47 AM »

i don't think there is such a thing as a story unique to games -- if a story can be told as a game, it can also be told as something else. it won't be the exact same story but it'll be similar; sort of how harry potter as a movie series is different than harry potter as a novel series; but both are harry potter, they're telling the harry potter story, just in different ways
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filosofiamanga
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« Reply #54 on: June 02, 2011, 12:46:13 PM »

If the "literarian" format doesn't work as well as the Stephen King format when you're telling your story, then it's simply not the most effective way of telling it. Maybe it's just poor translation, but I have a hunch that what you're calling literarian format is actually just a form of simplification.

What I mean by literarian is the "Fine art" concept, the academic part, the "high culture" epithet that people seem to put on dead writers that are still aclaimed. I make a diference between that and the "popular" literature that Meyers seem to be (I'm not meaning popular is less than the "academic").
The same could be said about music, people seem to think Bach, Mozart and Beethoven is better than Michael Jackson, Rihana or Maddona.
I agree with the academic being a niche, but I wonder why some seem to think something that it's renowed on the academic side can't be widly popular, I remember 100 years of solitude being popular.
About the poor translation, I say sorry, but I write english using the "Spanish" languaje structure, so maybe seems illogical or odd in some stuff for english readers. That's because I don't have any english native friends to help me.
I only ask you what should I fix first that is awkward.
EDIT: About the money, It's important to know about the market if you're interested in making a living with your writings, you must know how to make a book that will sell if you're interested in wining money with your books, but that doesn't mean to give up and write just for the sake to make money.
Second EDIT: I feel when I re-read my writings that I'm a little overconfident, but I think I should give my arguments, just to seek other people counter-arguments, and start a real and interesting debate so maybe I and others can learn something new or from other point of view. I know I'm not a know-all but I'll recognize I was wrong when someone proves it (with real arguments).

About leveling up, I feel when writing that I can do it better next time, It's like a musician performance, they know they need to practice and study to become better over time.
The problem is that I don't find a good motivation, TV movies nor manga doesn't help neither.
you're right about publication is for the trash, kafka never wanted to publish during his life, but when I look older writings of myself I don't want to show them because I know over time their flaws.

I found Twilight much more enjoyable when I started imagining that Bella was a sandwich.
Lol at your really tiny comment.  Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy


Does anyone here think that studying riddles could also help in writing interesting stories unique to games?
No, but they work very well to make the puzzles of the game, I used to love Resident Evil puzzles of psone.

i don't think there is such a thing as a story unique to games -- if a story can be told as a game, it can also be told as something else. it won't be the exact same story but it'll be similar; sort of how harry potter as a movie series is different than harry potter as a novel series; but both are harry potter, they're telling the harry potter story, just in different ways

I agree, games can told any story, but games stories are a completely diferent breed and games are a diferent medium that books or cinema.
In movies it helps that both are linear, but games doesn't are that way.
The story it's the same (It remains the same), but It's the WAY to tell it that changes.

Imagine a movie that is only a guy walking on the street, only the chasing or only about guys shooting or holding their weapons, you know it will suck as a movie, a game like that will be great.
A book about our inner thoughs and feelings could work, but being a movie will have to change some things.

It's the medium unique characteristics, not the story that creates the problem when translating from one medium to another.
A song made for a pop band will be diferent than if the same song would be arranged to a salsa band or a academic symphonic.
The song nor the compositor should be diferent, but he should be aware of the diferences.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2011, 07:51:21 AM by filosofiamanga » Logged
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« Reply #55 on: June 20, 2011, 12:21:08 AM »



i don't think there is such a thing as a story unique to games -- if a story can be told as a game, it can also be told as something else.

Difference is that movies or books cannot generate their own stories each time differently when you open them. You could have PGC stories and characters in games, that not even game designers would know how the story would play out. And also I think that in generally we have too restricted idea of a story and storytelling anyway, like this thread shows. It saddens me how horrible conservative people are here. Storytelling is not just about established drama writes like Shakespeare.

In games, storytelling could be far more complex area in where word 'story' is not enough to describe. We could have game worlds that evolve automatically around actions of player, or actions of itself. Like real life, I don't see my life as a story, I see it as a experience that doesn't have lots of predefined guidelines how it will play out. If I want to enjoy nice 'story' however, I must dig deeper than into shallow basic cliche filled few thousand years old drama-telling. For e.g. biographies are quite lovely in this area. They are sort of result sheets of a very complex simulation. Sure you can find classic drama elements from any biography, but the point is that classic drama is largely dumb simplification of something much more interesting.

There is lot of ground to cover in gaming, and people are just about learning to implement basic cliche stuff that is dead horse already. Oh humanity...  Waaagh!


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J.W. Hendricks
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« Reply #56 on: June 24, 2011, 07:04:11 PM »

READ THE WRITER'S JOURNEY. It has helped countless famous writers in life.
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« Reply #57 on: July 28, 2011, 11:08:27 AM »

READ THE WRITER'S JOURNEY. It has helped countless famous writers in life.
A good read, for sure. But it's a primer for Joseph Campbell's monomyth structure. Read it but take it with a grain of salt in that a good story does not need to be tied down to a certain style.
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ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)
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« Reply #58 on: July 28, 2011, 11:12:01 AM »



i don't think there is such a thing as a story unique to games -- if a story can be told as a game, it can also be told as something else.

Difference is that movies or books cannot generate their own stories each time differently when you open them.

sure they can -- never read a which-way book? and even with normal books and normal movies, stories totally feel different each time you read them, even if the content you're seeing is the same, what you focus on and how you interpret events usually makes the second watching of a movie or the second reading of a book very different than the first
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« Reply #59 on: August 24, 2011, 06:27:58 AM »

sure they can -- never read a which-way book? and even with normal books and normal movies, stories totally feel different each time you read them, even if the content you're seeing is the same, what you focus on and how you interpret events usually makes the second watching of a movie or the second reading of a book very different than the first

Never read that, sounds like gimmick. For me they don't work different way on each time. It's the same. There is some exceptions, but usually that involves 20 years between and thus better personal understanding. Also it requires very special book or movie, in which level games do not reach.
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