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[LDuncan]

Apologies if there's been a topic on this before--it seems likely but I wasn't able to find one that really fit what I wanted to ask.

I'm currently in the process of writing up a design doc for an RPG that I've been developing for a while now, but I reached somewhat of a stumbling block when I started thinking about quests. I can think of a lot of standard quest types that I hate (fetch quests, kill 10 Xs, any quest where the NPC asks you to do something they are perfectly capable of doing themselves, etc.), but I'm having trouble coming up with types of quests that I actually enjoyed.  What are your favorite quest types in RPGs? I have some alternatives I've been thinking about:

1) Fun, memorable, original: are there certain types of quests that are really fun, or really made an impression on you? A couple ideas on how to make some quests more memorable that I've been brainstorming have been like... adding a time of day element to the quest. I.e., the quest plays out differently if you start it at night (more stealthy) as opposed to daytime (storm the castle, ram the doors down, they saw you coming!). Or perhaps having class-conscious quests, where the same quest with the same final goal has different instructions/subgoals based on what class you are playing as.

2) Realism: many quests in games these days don't seem realistic for someone trying to save the world (or whatever they're trying to do). Evil is about to crush the world into tiny bits, but this stupid farmer won't let me borrow his horse until I gather 5 bushels of apples for him first. But is trying to be too real "un-fun" though?

3) That was sooo late '90s: has the concept of "quests" become blasé now? Is there a better way of handling non-linear story progression coming around the corner? Or does that just sound pretentious? 

tl;dr: What are your favorite types of quests? What quest types do you wish RPGs would steer clear from?

[Alec S.]

I think Planescape:  Torment is an excellent example of a game where quests were done right.

Some of the elements it used to do this were:
 - Quests that involved some element of choice.  There are multiple ways to get to "quest completed" and multiple possible outcomes of the quest.  This not only gave the player opportunities to come up with the best solution, but also role-play and make the choices that their character would.
 - Some quests required you to find an item or gave a vague description of an item that you won't run across for quite some time in the game.  A quest doesn't have to be instantaneously completable.  A lot of quests these days are "find this item, and here's what it is".  But some quests in Planescape:  Torment would have quests that are more along the lines of "I need something like this..." and maybe hours later in the game, you would run across an item in your questing that fits that description.
 - And, as you said, realism is a element, where most quests would be for things the NPC would actually have a reason for wanting, but which they would be unable or unlikely to be able to get themselves.

[LDuncan]

I like the idea of delaying quest completion thingy. Maybe some sort of semi-Chekov's Gun type thing... gets mentioned early in the game, and when you finally complete the quest, that little thing turns out to be extremely important.

I'll have to check out Planescape: Torment... it's one of those games that slipped by my radar. Thanks, Alec

[s0]

The "realism" thing is most important IMO. NPCs shouldn't be living signposts but actual characters with believable motivations. When most of your players skip the dialog to get to the "kill 5 rats" part, you're doing it wrong.

Torment has already been mentioned, Vampire The Masquerade: Bloodlines is another game that does quests really well.

[SundownKid]

I think quests that someone with only special powers would be able to do are pretty fun, because they force you to think outside the box. For example, the time traveling quests in Radiant Historia/Chrono Trigger, or if the mind reading from Live-A-Live was made into a bunch of quests.

[Aik]

So I love the late 90s, but I'm not sure that 'quests' are the best way of thinking about it. I (mildly) disliked how, say, Baldur's Gate 2 handled quests - with NPCs leaping out left right and centre handing you places to go and things to do. You can't walk down a street in Athkatla without NPCs swarming to you with quests, like you have a flashing neon sign saying 'GET ME TO SOLVE YOUR RANDOM PROBLEMS'.

So yeah - quests are unnatural. You can get away with it because it's a genre trope that we don't even think about anymore, but ... yeah.

An early 00s innovation in the PnP RPG scene turned the focus from quests to relationships - where NPCs all have ties to each other and the PCs and these became the central way of giving things to do. Try googling 'relationship map Sorcerer' or 'Dogs in the Vineyard town' for examples.
I'm not sure how to work this sort of thing into a cRPG exactly, mind you - but it's certainly the direction I'd be going in if I was going to try.

[LDuncan]

I'm glad people have brought up the problem with NPCs. The inspiration for this game came out of a desire to become some sort of "NPC advocate"... to stand up for NPCs and give them a sense of life, instead of "living signposts." It'll be kind of simulation heavy, but hopefully still turns out fun. But yeah. That's where this post comes in. If I'm trying to make NPCs more lifelike, I want quests/story to be more realistic as well. I'm starting to second-guess myself though, as I look over my design document, and think "Well, this is certainly interesting... I don't know if it's actually fun though." 

[Sankar]

It's not really the "Type of Quest" that define a Good Quest, but the immersion and story behind it.

"My son is sick, I wish I could do something to save his life... Rumors say the king's doctor can cure anything. I was never a greedy man, but for once I wish I was king..."

is Different than

"Go there and talk to that character"

Its the same Gameplay Mechanic that will drive it, BUT the way its presented creates a relationship between you (the player) and the characters involved.
Maybe you'll do it, maybe you wont. Maybe there is no point in saving the world if you fail this man, or maybe this boy's life is a acceptable sacrifice.

A well "written" quest fits right into the game, doesn't stick out or looks "arcadey" and gives the player room to think, express himself and most importantly: ROLE-PLAY.

RPG games are always in the brink of "Layering" the Game, and thats a very problematic thing. Some games layer story in one plane and items/skills/money in other. This concept may look confusing, but follow me here:
If the game has a story, but all the player gets from quests is itens and money. Then we have 2 layers there, in one the player follows the story, in another, the player get money and stats.
So there you are, level 99 necromancer, remember that cool Paladin in the church that gave you a quest when you were level 1? He still treats you the very same way.

So, in short, a good quest is not about the deed itself, but the cause and consequence of your action.
Maybe if you save the boy, the poor man won't give you a item or money. But as soon as you leave his house, people in the town come to talk to you, treat you better, admire you. Maybe the shopkeeper will give you a discount, and if an enemy comes to town to beat you, maybe the citizes will stand by you.

You can even fit a 'boring fetch quest' and make it acceptable. If the rest of the game is balanced well enough to make it necessary or useful.
If you make your player value each coin of his/her money.
and put some fetch quest as a job,
and allow the player to express himself (I'll pay for each item, so bring me as many as you can)
and the player see as useful and necessary ("I can't get all this money anywhere else")
and the player has to do something thats fun in a cool place ("get the fur/skin of wild beasts!")
and his actions have consequences (the guy who pays you start hanging around the fur, you see people using fur on the streets)

RPGs in my opinion are all about covering the mechanics and systems with story and narrative. Making the player really role-play.

[LDuncan]

It's not really the "Type of Quest" that define a Good Quest, but the immersion and story behind it.

I completely agree with you there. I sort of worry though, at least in this World of Warcraft generation, that you could put all that work into the story and people will just click past your finely crafted story to get to the rewards. I know Blizzard puts a lot of work into their games, but I doubt more than a handful actually read the quest text in WoW (though, I think they kind of shot themselves in the foot there, since they kind of built the game around maximizing rewards vs. time).

I think you bring up some good points on how to stop some of that, though. I love the fur idea, where the item you obtained starts getting used by the NPC. It might not stop someone from skipping through your story, but at least it shows them that there are consequences to their actions, and they're doing more than interacting with signposts.

[starsrift]

Keep in mind that all quests essentially boil down to "Go to Location M, Do X." Sometimes, "And Return". Accept that premise and disguise it. The more various ways compared to your other quests that you disguise it and add multiple methods of completion, the better it is. The mechanics are the same, the fluff is what makes it interesting. Killing five rats because the questgiver wants to sew them together to make a ratskin flask for an obscure ritual or extreme sillyness is more interesting than killing 5 rats "because the cellar is dangerous and they bite!". And what happens if the player kills squirrels or otters instead?

[baconman]

If you're going with a questing system, I'd suggest looking into Mystery Dungeon territory for inspiration. Most of the time, quests are about cleaving a dungeon to get to the end - but think about the fun and exciting things you can do *during* the dungeon itself!

Locate something within a by-design secret passage? Speedrun that crap? Milk a dungeon for 90% of it's gold or gems? Find and rescue someone in there?

Also; don't belittle them as side quests, if that's going to be the meat of the game. Make them jobs. Give your player character needs (beyond item and level grinding), and make these a way of fulfilling them. A "dating" system or "friends and foes" can apply too.

Finally, consider that different parts of the genre are fun to different people... Just make the "variety of quest types" apply to these different elements. If someone likes epic boss battles, don't throw them in a 90-screen maze of puzzles. Throw them right into battle!

[baconman]

Battle Operas: A sequence of battles or encounters, not too unlike a short "Boss Rush." You can even theme these according to battle system tactics, like status attacks, magic duels, tactical melees with item usage (even by enemies), etc.

Treasure Hunts: Exploring dungeons for goodies! Stumbling around labyrinths ladled with traps and one-way passages. And did I mention treasure?

Rescue Runs: Find a NPC (or pet) roaming around somewhere, and either retreat or clear the dungeon to save them.

Mystery Puzzles: You could base these on all kinds of things! Don't just limit your ideas to RPG elements - make math puzzles, word puzzles, logic puzzles! Even simple observation puzzles that you can trial-and-error through, or poke around and find hints to.

Dig into your favorite titles and see what other elements you can find!

[baconman]

Oh! Almost forgot the funnest element of Mystery Dungeon: quest stacking! Allow the player to accept a number of quests, and complete more than one at once, should they share a common location.

MD games also streamline the quest-acceptance process; PokeMon MD had 2 places to go for them, a "Help Wanted" board with up to 8 of them, and a mailbox at your base with up to 4 at a time.

You can also storyboard around a group of recurring (sometimes conflicting?) NPC characters, instead of just the player. Although they each will contribute something towards your "destiny," too.

[Chromanoid]

Fallout 2 has some very neat quests. One of my favorites:
http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Something_strange_is_happening_at_the_farm_northeast_of_Modoc._Investigate_and_report_back_to_Jo

I like quests with a twist.

[Sankar]

I completely agree with you there. I sort of worry though, at least in this World of Warcraft generation, that you could put all that work into the story and people will just click past your finely crafted story to get to the rewards.

While there are some Gamers who don't really like to read, and only play RPGs because of the gameplay mechanics and the whole "grinding" thing. We can't help but read, no matter how fast you can scroll the text, some words will be read, and if something is interesting the player will end up feeling curious about it.

The problem with many RPGs, in my opinion, is that they ignore that writing is an Art form. And i'm not talking about the ideas and concepts behind the game's storyline, but the way its written. And I believe this is why lots of people skip the text in some games.
Like you go talk to a character and all he do is talk about what you already could SEE in the graphics. Or the characters repeat the same idea over and over again, or talk without any personality in the words used. And actually some games do these things all the time, at the same time!

For example, you're playing a game and you step into a crime-scene. My mind wants to know who did this, why it happened, who was killed. But then I talk to the NPCs surrounding the bodies and all they can do is talk about how horrible is to see all these bodies ripped to pieces, and all the NPCs have the same reaction.

Now imagine, you step into a crime-scene and someone says: "they deserved it".
Or you talk to someone else and he says: "Look at these bite marks, this was no human job", and another guy says: "But beasts would've dragged the carcasses, only humans kill by sport".
Small lines, that show the player something he can't see (the bite marks) and elaborate and idea he may not have thought (most animals don't kill just for killing) and it defines the personality of these two characters, they are cold, logical people. And nobody seen to remark why a dude said they deserve it, so that means nobody cared about these people? why!?

Now you talk to a woman in a corner and she says: "Even the blood smells rotten, as if everything here is cursed. Can you feel it? (yes - no) Death likes to be remembered."
This doesn't add much to the whole "Investigation", but makes you think about the smell, and even about the "feeling" of the place.

And I feel we've com a long way from NES RPGs, but we're still using the same text boxes, with scrolling text and no player motion.
What if the player could walk while a NPC was talking? what if you walk too far, the NPC just goes: "Well, forget it". What if you met a strange girl and when you start to walk away, she starts to talk with REALLY big letters?
Maybe different colors or emphasis on words, maybe even different fonts for some characters. Different people could react differently if you paid attention or not.
Maybe istead of having to choose from "questions" to ask, you could click the "bold" words in someone's dialog to ask more about it. And if you have a question, it shows up in a menu over your head. So you can just click and ask it right away.
You can let the player choose how fast he wants the text to scroll and allow him to scroll it manually with clicks or button presses. and if he doesn't care about what has being said, he just needs to walk away.

Well, just some random thoughts but I think you get the idea.

[SirNiko]

Metal Gear Solid for the Game Boy Color had a fun assortment of quests. After completing each stage, you were made to replay the stage with different criteria. For example, one level turned into a scavenger hunt where you had to follow clues that relied on your knowledge of the stage. Another level made you plant bombs like before, but now you had to use x-ray goggles to find where the tracks to find the correct locations to plant the bombs. Another made the player defeat a boss with only grenades. The idea was that each quest was a simple spin on the existing mechanics that challenged the player to do something new and more difficult.

Final Fantasy 8 (For as much as was wrong with it) had quests that rewarded the player with tidbits of backstory. For example, in the underground village there was a side quest to collect magic stones - but when you complete the quest it is revealed that the stones were actually meant to get you to explore the village. Your reward is a short story about the village and the Moomba creatures. Another quest involves meeting with a fisherman in Fisherman's horizon. Rather than getting an item or experience, the reward for following through is you get to see a little hologram that explains how the village came to be founded, and ties in with the story of another village. This is great for other games, because it allows overachievers to complete every quest they encounter and feel rewarded for doing so without breaking the game with piles of loot and XP.

The Golden Rule of game design (especially with regards to quests): If the quest offered no rewards at all except to congratulate you for success, would you still do the quest? If the answer is 'no', you need to go back and change it until the answer is 'yes'. This doesn't mean you shouldn't reward the player (I like getting a reward at the end of a quest), it means don't justify an uninteresting or tedious quest with a desirable item.

[LDuncan]

What if you met a strange girl and when you start to walk away, she starts to talk with REALLY big letters?

I wonder why games don't do this more often. One of my favorite designers, Cameron Moll, often likes to point out that good designers treat text as content, but great designers treat text as a user interface. Typography is recognized as one of the most important parts of other design media, but games often don't think about it beyond the title screen and font choice. If quests givers gave players something other than a wall of text, people might pay attention more often.

[Chromanoid]

What if you met a strange girl and when you start to walk away, she starts to talk with REALLY big letters?

I wonder why games don't do this more often. One of my favorite designers, Cameron Moll, often likes to point out that good designers treat text as content, but great designers treat text as a user interface. Typography is recognized as one of the most important parts of other design media, but games often don't think about it beyond the title screen and font choice. If quests givers gave players something other than a wall of text, people might pay attention more often.

great input thx "different font styles as indicator for the character and mood of a virtual being" saw shivering text in some jrpgs, but never thought about extending this idea.

[vinheim3]

Was just playing a game called Puzzle Quest, a match-3 meets RPG game, and the whole game is filled with quests, required ones that advance the story and optional ones that don't. In order to beat each quest, you practically do the same thing for each one, face an enemy in a match-3 battle. I think the questing system here, however, wasn't boring or redundant because 1) the gameplay is fun and 2) what makes each quest stand out from one another were the story and some hilarious characters or even emotional ones who tell about their background.

In other RPGs, quests have limited story or the characters you meet in them don't get developed enough; they aren't interesting. I think the "best" questing system would incorporate something interesting like from Planescape, and also incorporate good story and character development like in Puzzle Quest or in the MMORPG, Guild Wars, and NOT fetch quests like WoW.

[baconman]

Sankar needs to play Mass Effect 2. Or he needs to play more of it, one or the other.