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[filosofiamanga]

Thanks Theophilus, I think I'll put next time: "Begining TL:DR:"

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

I don't like this way of thinking as to some extent you're relieving a person of responsibility for their actions. I know that the concept of free will is questionable at best but life is greatly hindered unless you act under the pretense it exists. In a way not allowing people to have responsibility and accountability for their actions is a great disrespect.

have you tried acting under that idea (the "There but for the grace of God, go I" principle -- obviously the god part is unnecessary but that's just the phrase that best encapsulates it)?

if so, how have you found that it has hindered you? specifically?

if not, how can you know it will hinder you ahead of time? it doesn't seem to hinder me. i not only don't believe free will exists, i don't act under the pretense that it does

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

usually it's used to caution people against looking down on people, because you haven't walked in their shoes, had their childhood experiences, etc., and if you did you'd probably act the way they do and be in the same situation they're in. it's also in a sense a feeling of gratefulness that you were lucky enough to have a better situation

for instance, two rich people with monocles and top hats see a homeless person on the street as they walk home from a party. one thinks 'ew, a bum!' and the other thinks 'that could be me'

[Contrary]

Perhaps this is a product of my childish egotism but I feel as if it will make my actions leave a sort of bitter aftertaste. I very much my value my perceived autonomy (perceived both with and without the pretense of free will).

My philosophy is analogous to the idea of constellations. You know that much of life appears random and meaningless but by applying artificial meaning we can life much more interesting. Of course this is under the assumption that you believe that things are "better" when they are more "meaningful" and "interesting" and also that you believe "better" is "good" which may not necessarily hold true for you.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

yeah but that's different from saying that life is 'greatly hindered' by acknowledging that a person's personality and actions come out of their experiences and genetics rather than from some invisible internal source. and i don't think this has anything to do with meaning; to me a deterministic universe is much more meaningful and much less "random" than one with free will. and the meaning isn't even artificial

also i don't see how it affects autonomy at all. people still make choices, regardless of whether those choices come out of some imaginary supernatural will or the material world. if you make choices, you're autonomous, even if the nature of the mind which made the choice was caused by things outside of yourself rather than something acausal

i think the main reason people don't think this way isn't childish egoism or any great hindrance but just that they don't have the habit of keeping all this in mind in day to day life. the mind wasn't built to handle these types of issues, it was built to find food and shelter and to have sex and all that stuff, and it's very good machine at doing that; understanding the universe, it's not so good at

[Contrary]

I believe that I believe and understand the idea of a deterministic universe but I save that for philosophical discussions such as this. I choose not to in most day to day interactions with life because it is incompatible with ideas that I hold core to my personality i.e. a value on personal choice and accountability. I don't think that logically there can be such a thing as deterministic choices.

I see that you choose to portray the idea of imaginary self-direction in a way that makes it seem juvenile and frivolous. I think I can understand why you would feel that a deterministic universe is more meaningful than one with artificial free will. I do not place a value on "real" vs "artificial" which I assume you do based on your choice to say that a deterministic universe being non-artificial is an argument for it. Unless you don't care and are trying to speak in terms by relating to what you think are my values?

I assume you are referring to the universe as in the sum of all that exists and not as a more personalized immediate state of reality. My focus was on how the addition of free will makes my personal life and things that relate to me more meaningful.

I agree that it is maybe the limits of our hardware that cause some people to prefer a denial of determinism but I would say that this is an argument is in favour of free will as I value making life easier.

Perhaps I made the fundamental error in saying that life (in general) is hindered by a lack of free will. I should have said that for me the enjoyment of life are hindered by a lack of free will.

[s0]

I liked the movie Free Willy when I was a kid.

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