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[Hangedman]

Qbert, no, FFT, yes but fake. Again. If reduced to a true 2D perspective (in both cases top-down would be ideal), would it still have the same playability. Qbert is essentially a grid visualized differently. Height is important in FFT and directly affects the game, so the perspective is necessary.

[Painting]

Isometric games are "2.4D" or "2.6D" depending on how much they focus on changing or interacting with Z-levels, and games like NSMB or Kirby 64 are "2.5D". Problem solved!

Like Hangedman said, Q-bert could be forcibly turned into top-down 2D and played fine. But it's a bit off to call it completely 2D. 2.4D. Boom.

And let's not forget the lovable "Alternate-dimensions 3D", where the gameplay is depicted in 2D but focuses on travel through time. For instance, Opera Omnia.

[leonelc29]

So a Zelda II style game would be more fun if it had arguments about 2D vs. 3D and single-plane action vs. multi-plane action?

That's weird. I've read almost 2 pages of that and I'm not having fun yet.

well, i having enough fun by watching all the funny arguments about 2D and 3D. personal taste, i guess 

i'd like to see a zelda 2 game having a gameplay of 2D vs 3D. might be fun to play, i guess.

[Painting]

So a Zelda II style game would be more fun if it had arguments about 2D vs. 3D and single-plane action vs. multi-plane action?

That's weird. I've read almost 2 pages of that and I'm not having fun yet.

People aren't really addressing the thread's question because A) Paul Eres and Gilbert TIGSource is given to derails about this sort of thing and B) it's a really subjective question. Saying a game is objectively fun or unfun is a stretch already, and Zelda 2 is especially divisive. Would you prefer people spend three pages arguing about what "fun" means?

[vinheim3]

What does it mean?

[s0]

NSMB and Kirby 64 are not "2.5D" games because  their 3D graphics are purely cosmetic. It's just a visual style. A 2D game using a 3D renderer is still 2D.

I remember 2.5D being used for Doom because iirc its engine only allows for one Z value to be associated with each pair of X/Y coordinates meaning you can't have objects on top of other objects. FFT/Tactics Ogre use a similar system.

[gimymblert]

BTW the 2D/3D arguing relate to how much zelda 2 would be improve, I say Oot is closer to zelda 2 and fix the problem already (less cryptic main quest, difficulty and battle that make sense, correct hinting by npc) whatelse?

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

i actually think all the hints were the worst part of OoT -- the owl's and the fairy's constant hints almost ruined the game

[Painting]

What does it mean?

Read through this, and then you tell me.

(Hint: Don't, it's a waste of time)

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

Guys, we all know that Contra and Knytt Stories are in the same genre.

platformer? just because games are in the same genre doesn't mean they have to be similar. pikmin and starcraft 2 are both RTS games, but that doesn't mean they're similar

[Sankar]

Edit: Sorry, I thought this was the thread about sidekicks.

Anyway, here are my thoughts on how to make Zelda 2 fun.

-Speed: Side-Scroll Gaming can be very fun, but immensely unrewarding if you need to stop every 5 seconds, battle for 20 and repeat. The Game needs to be fast, the controls should be responsive and, more importantly, you should be allowed to be fast, and so the enemies.

-Freedom: Mario is fun because more or less, I have some freedom when playing it. I can try to run from the spawn point to the end flag, or move very slowly, I can kick a turtle shell and try to run toward it, dodging when it bounces on a wall.
Zelda 2 had lots of potential for freedom, because of the Items. But I never really felt I was doing something "of my own".

-Diversity: Ninja Gaiden 2 does this very well. Some stages have wind, for example. Its about having to learn something new every time, BUT at the same time, being able to hone your skills in something older. Diversity is not "all new all time", but a mix of new, old, old with new elements, new that is familiar, and so on.

-RPG = Exploration: Zelda Lacked this, and this has nothing to do with being a side-scroll game, Metroid has exploration. But I wish I could "discover more" about the world on my own, find new stuff. Every Zelda game, more or less allow you to find some nice hidden things. This one felt more limited.


About the discussion of the View-Point, 2D, 3D, Genre and so on, for me:
GENRE has nothing to do with Viewing Angle. I feel the same thing playing Mario 3, 64, Sunshine and Galaxy. Its the same Genre only with a different point of view. Sure, technology goes on, but the basic idea is the same.

[Painting]

platformer? just because games are in the same genre doesn't mean they have to be similar. pikmin and starcraft 2 are both RTS games, but that doesn't mean they're similar

Contra isn't a platformer.

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

i never thought of it as anything else; the world seems to think it is too: contra + platformer returns 660000 results in google, with a lot of them calling it a "platformer shooter". plus, it has platforms, you jump between them. what else would it be? a shmup?

[s0]

run & gun

[Painting]

I never thought of it as anything else; the world seems to think it is too: contra + run and gun returns over 13 million results in google, with a lot of them specifically referring to it a "run'n'gun". Plus, it has guns, you fire them, and also run. What else would it be? A tactical RPG?

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

according to wikipedia "run and gun" is a subgenre of shmup, so it turns out i was right with my other guess, it is a shmup

but i definitely think that it's also at least partially a platformer -- perhaps a platformer-shmup hybrid

also 'gun' and 'run' have to be in quotes or that google research doesn't count, because guns and running would be mentioned along with contra a lot of the time. if you put "run and gun" in quotes, it's only 208k, so more people think of it as a platformer than a run and gun (which seems like a genre only gaming nerds would know of anyway)

i'm not sure why it's that important anyway, genres can be classified in multiple ways, as even icycalm admits. i think of contra as a platformer with shmup elements, others think of it as a shmup with platforming elements, it isn't that big of a difference (except in which is considered the essential part of it)

there are also people who think of the zelda games as rpgs, or action-rpgs, and people who don't, and other people who give them their own genre (zeldalike); it doesn't seem to matter all that much which you think of it as, except perhaps in your expectancies for it

[Painting]

according to wikipedia "run and gun" is a subgenre of shmup, so it turns out i was right with my other guess, it is a shmup

but i definitely think that it's also at least partially a platformer -- perhaps a platformer-shmup hybrid

also 'gun' and 'run' have to be in quotes or that google research doesn't count, because guns and running would be mentioned along with contra a lot of the time. if you put "run and gun" in quotes, it's only 208k, so more people think of it as a platformer than a run and gun (which seems like a genre only gaming nerds would know of anyway)

If you're so deadset on using Google results to prove your point, you could at least be fair about it - the term "run and gun" can be spelled in a variety of ways. It's impractical to try each minor variation of it, so I guess you're automatically right?

Saying "it's still a platformer hybrid" is weird, since just having minor platformer elements shouldn't really qualify a game for being considered a platformer - if that were the case, wouldn't it be most accurate to call Zelda 1 a side-scrolling/top-down puzzle RPG action-adventure shmup? Sure, it has elements from those genres. They're not a huge, defining part of the game.

In Contra, there are parts of the game where you have platformer gameplay. In SMB, there are parts of the game where you fire a projectile weapon upon an enemy, much like in shmups. Would you call SMB a platformer-shmup?

And finally, it's silly for you to say "it doesn't matter anyway, everyone has different opinions on genres, who can say for sure what something is?", because you yourself have been defining what a game or a genre is and is not in this very thread:

mario64 is totally not in the same genre as the 2d mario games, but anyone who organizes them that way is entitled to their stupid opinion

i don't think you know what 'genre' means -- genre is camera angle (paraphrasing cliffyb)

of course there are multiple genres in the same camera angle, but for the most part different camera angle means different genre, 100% of the time

i wouldn't even call vertical shmups in the same genre as horizontal shmups (both are shmups, but they're different genres)

[ஒழுக்கின்மை (Paul Eres)]

you seem to be getting too upset over what genre a game is classified in -- i'm not trying to prove i'm right, i'm saying a) i think of it as a platformer, and a lot of other people do too, and that b) what genre something classified in isn't objective, and doesn't really matter all that much -- i'm not sure why you're getting so upset that i don't agree with you about how to classify it, or about what it's generally classified as by the average player

and that part you quoted was a joke, i was teasing neoshaman and making fun of cliffyb; i don't literally mean that genre is camera angle

[Painting]

you seem to be getting too upset over what genre a game is classified in -- i'm not trying to prove i'm right, i'm saying a) i think of it as a platformer, and a lot of other people do too, and that b) what genre something classified in isn't objective, and doesn't really matter all that much -- i'm not sure why you're getting so upset that i don't agree with you about how to classify it, or about what it's generally classified as by the average player

and that part you quoted was a joke, i was teasing neoshaman and making fun of cliffyb; i don't literally mean that genre is camera angle

I'm not getting upset. I'm kind of disappointed in myself that you think I am - I guess I didn't write clearly enough? It's hard to tell emotions over the Internet, and you really shouldn't assume someone is angry or whatever based on the way they write. If you couldn't tell I'm not distressed, how do you expect me to tell when you're being sarcastic or teasing?

While I would normally agree with you about genre classification not mattering that much, the discussion for the last few pages has been genre classification. Look at any post here.

If you really don't think that genres matter much, then you really shouldn't be in threads with debates about them!

[DavidCaruso]

run & gun

"Run and gun" is kind of a bad name for the subgenre, even if it's what we colloquially use. Are the Shinobi games not classified in it because you don't use guns?

Generally I like "platform shooter" for 2D shooters in side-view perspective a la Contra or Metal Slug. "Action shooter" is also a term I've seen used to describe this genre but even Gradius can be defined as an "action shooter" (action game relying hugely on reflexes, and you shoot things), and shooters are already a subgenre of action games, so it's a vague and redundant name. "Vertically scrolling shooter" and "horizontally scrolling shooter" can be used for shmups (since they autoscroll in either one of those directions). The "platform shooter" name also makes it clearer that they're not directly related to scrolling shooters.