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TeeGee
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« on: April 21, 2007, 02:03:54 AM »

Hey guys,

Here's a game I've released recently, that I would like to get some feedback on. It's in the *silent launch mode*, so I'm still up for some updates (but not reworks obviously). Especially as it's my first commercial project and a great learning opportunity.

Name: MAGI - Magical Strategy Game
Category: Strategy/RPG
Requirements: Windows 98/2k/Me/XP, DirectX 8+, preferably more than 16mb Vram
Download Link: Free Demo
Website: www.getmagi.com

It's a pretty unique approach towards the strategy and RPG. Player takes the role of a dueling wizard and engages in series of magical battles, involving use of spells, strategy and wits.
There are many different character classes and spells to choose from and the player is encouraged to design his own strategy to win.
Gameplay is pretty dynamic and intense for a static strategy game. The duels are also relatively short and fought in real time so it works as a nice lunch-break game.

Here's some eye-candy:



Feedback:

Okay - so here's what I need the most:

Uniqueness of the game is a nice thing, but it's the biggest problem too.
MAGI is quite simple to play (but not easy overall Wink) and takes only few minutes to get used to, but I'm worried about those few minutes. The game seems pretty confusing at first, while it's really not that complicated.
Partially it's because the gameplay is different (player has no similiar games to base on), and partially it's because the UI shows all the info at once (which is very convinient later, as the numbers are constantly changing).
So I've got a dillema - I would like the game to be more user-friendly, but I don't want to redesign the whole interface or to simplify the mechanics (as it's what attracts all the strategy fans).

MAGI is surely quite fun and converts pretty nicely, but I'm still concerned about the accessibility.

If you have any thoughts on this matter - please share them. Of course if you have any other suggestions, feel free to post them too. There's always a place for improvement.

Oh - and have fun... Wink

« Last Edit: May 05, 2007, 09:44:46 AM by TeeGee » Logged

Tom Grochowiak
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« Reply #1 on: April 21, 2007, 08:36:59 AM »

One way to make the game more user-friendly would be to include a level where you watch a battle, where the player isn't expected to do anything at all, but just sees how battles go (you could even have the mouse moving around on its own pressing the buttons).

Or an easier way would be to record a game trailer of a play-through of a battle, and put it on YouTube, and link to that trailer on the website so that people can get an idea of how the battles work.
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TeeGee
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« Reply #2 on: April 21, 2007, 09:21:19 AM »

Quote from: RinkuHero
One way to make the game more user-friendly would be to include a level where you watch a battle, where the player isn't expected to do anything at all, but just sees how battles go (you could even have the mouse moving around on its own pressing the buttons).

I'm not very convinced about this idea. Tutorials are always boring and considered a chore by the gamers. Making this sort of extended tutorial (with no activity from the player) is not a best way to catch the player's attention IMHO.

Quote
Or an easier way would be to record a game trailer of a play-through of a battle, and put it on YouTube, and link to that trailer on the website so that people can get an idea of how the battles work.

This is a good idea and I need to make a gameplay video anyway (for other puproses). Still it doesn't really help a player that just downloaded the game and want to hop into it.

Situation is like this:
* Player downloads the game because my uber marketing and ESP abilities plant a "this game's worth a try" idea in his/her mind Wink.
* Player installs the game and runs it. Goes through the menus and character creation screen. The game starts.
* Player goes "WTF it's all about?!"
* Tutorial appears and slowly explains things to the player. After few trials and errors, player gets hang on this and actually starts enjoying the game.

I want to remove that "WTF" part. It might drive some people out of the game, before they realise it's not that complicated (actually it has some 'casuality' factor).
I'm mainly interested in overall design improvements. Things like the tutorial and explanations are already there and do their job, but they don't really alleviate the first-glance confusion.

Here are thing that I've came with myself (so you don't have to bother with writing about something that already sparked in my mind Wink:

- This was suggested by someone else, but it's a good idea. Adding "recommended attributes" button in the character creation screen should let more newbie players hop into the game faster without making silly mistakes.

- Reducing the amount of numbers on the interface.
Instead of showing the player's/opponent's 'Power', I could use some sort of magic ball that would flow towards the more powerful mage (or anything like this). Instead of showing the player's level all the time, I could just display it between battles (with a nice experience bar thingie). Health could be shown with a bar too. Way to display the 'Age' only when it changes, would be good too.
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« Reply #3 on: April 21, 2007, 09:43:18 AM »

I have an idea. The huge GUI with all the buttons and numbers appearing all at once to the player can be overwhelming. So why not have it all blank at first, and introduce one aspect of the GUI to the player at a time, and have that aspect appear on the GUI after it's mentioned in the tutorial?

Like the tutorial could say "this pentagram measures the time it takes to cast a spell" and then the pentagram would appear.

I think the WTF moment comes directly out of showing such a huge and complicated GUI to the player all at once, so introducing it one element at a time might help.
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« Reply #4 on: April 26, 2007, 11:21:06 PM »

There's one sorta small change that I think would improve the game a lot: give spells (and channel additions) a global cooldown instead of a casting time.  If you click "summon imp" it could immediately create one, but then prevent any spells from being used for X seconds (put an hourglass over all buttons).  The various fireballs would become a lot more fun since its frustrating to shoot an anti-shield or poison blast and have their golem intercept.  It would give the whole game a bit more action.  I played as the lich and my favorite part was the instant-fire bullets and mines.

Character creation was pretty complicated to throw out as the player's first task.  Maybe quickstart buttons for things like "summoner" or "pyro".  These buttons could fill in the attributes for you, but not actually select that character.  That way I could try clicking several of them to quickly see what stats directly relate to each character type.

It might be even better to just assign the player a balanced character for the demo.  Level ups demonstrate the customization possibilities anyway.

Maybe not during gameplay, but during character creation tips should come up on hover.

The mana channels are a bit confusing since they're positioned far from the button that creates them.  I tended to just look at the spell buttons to see how many channels were created, but that didn't work for the shield mana since it was the only spell of that color.  Maybe a line or background color that grows downward from each color's mana creation button.

The buttons at the top for creating mana channels should be the color of the mana they create.
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« Reply #5 on: April 27, 2007, 02:07:35 PM »

Ok so I installed your game and I played it for a couple of hours.

Here’s what I think of it

First off, the negative points.

 The first thing that strikes me is that I feel like the tutorial of the game doesn’t give me the right information at the right time. When you first start off a new game, you are asked to fill up a form without being informed what are the actual details of the attribute. I feel like you should tell us exactly what we’re doing before doing it. You can access the details of the attributes when right-clicking them but I feel like this information is too crucial to be placed on a second stage.   I believe that you should give us the a quick explanation of every trait before we choose between them. Just one little pop-up going like “This trait means more damage. This one means more spells, this one mean less casting time, etc…”

Speaking of the tutorial, I felt like it was too laborious. At some point, I just didn’t want to read it anymore and just wanted to get on with the game. Your tutorial should focus on key elements. I want to be told, what’s my attributes and how they work, what’s the school, how to cast, what are the channels and how do I win/loose. Here’s a proposition of a tutorial. It’s not polished or anything, just quick ideas…

New character screen
1-“Welcome”: just like you have there
2 “Attribute explanation”: Quick explanation of what we are choosing
3-“School”: Just like you have there, perhaps explaining very quickly the schools.
4-“Proffesion”: Same thing

In game
1-“Welcome” Like you have there. I would drop the “I’m confused thing”. I can’t be confused at this point of the game because I just created a character with a very easy and accessible screen. Wink
2-“Personal info” I’d start off by going with something very easy and very vital to the player: it’s status. The first thing I have to know is where to look to know if I’m winning or not. 
3-“Days left before I die”; This is also a very important info and I feel it fits very well with the health. Feels like the remaining health gauge of the game.

4-“Channels”: Before I can cast, I need to channel energy so the next step is obvious.

5-“Casting”: Now, I know my status in the game, where my avatar is, how to enable my actions. All that’s left is learning how to use those actions correctly.

6-“Let the player play”: last words before letting the player go, such as “Remember: right-click for help” or anything like that.

So, tutorial’s over and the player knows what to do but still has to experiment a bit, and most important, before any dangerous encounters. I’ve actually died during my first tutorial because A) I didn’t pay attention to the tutorial and B) I clicked everywhere. I didn’t know what to do and I died before the game had officially started.   

 With the proposition I have shown you, you also have something shorter. Between 12 and 18 pop-ups if you include text padding such as “Ok then let’s take a look around” (which is very important to make things flow). In the present demo, I’ve counted over 70 pop-ups in the tutorial. That’s quite a lot, especially since it stops the flow of the game every time.

 Anyway, I'm not saying my idea is better than what you got, only that I'm going for another way of looking at your tutorial. I believe that a simpler introduction would be better for your game because of all the details we can find playing the game. As long as the crucial information is passed to the player before the actual encounters and it's short and sweet, the tutorial will work.

 Let’s move on to the GUI. One of the worst flaw I find in the GUI is that one of the most important, if not the most important information in your game, is not well represented. Timing your spells and managing your casting time is crucial yet we don’t have a clear view of this information. Most of the time, our eyes focus on the top right corner of the screen and the pentagram representing the time passed casting is located at the opposite. Also, I feel like the pentagram is not precise enough for your game. We can’t tell exactly how much time is left before the spell is conjured.  Maybe trying to place the pentagram nearer to the spells would help a lot. Also, the open channels spheres are also far from the channel icons. Perhaps placing the sphere on each corner of the icon would be better?  I’m not sure because it might crowd the icons too much.

 I was thinking that maybe if the pentagram was closer and that it would fill up completely every time you cast/channeled (the rate at which the pentagram fills up would depend on the spell), it would be more obvious to the player when the spell/channeling is going to be completed. It would be a very minor change in the game and it would give more precise information vital to the timing of the spell casting.

 Another factor that may fix your GUI trouble is the ever present ring of fire. When you start channeling or casting spells, the ring of fire places itself on the chosen icon but after the action is finished (for example here, casting a shield, the ring remains on the icon. At first I thought it was because he didn’t finish casting it. Its quite useful for attack spells like “Magic missile” but I feel this is pointless for shields, summoning (since you can only have one) and curses. If the ring disappeared, the player would have a visible cue that the spell has been casted and it’s time you do something else.

 A thought occurred. Perhaps you could have the traits information hidden during battle and put a bigger pentagram and the channel sphere there. When the battle is over, you simply put back the trait info, hide the pentagram and the channel sphere. It would leave more room to breathe in your health and power section and put all the battle information in the same region.

 Now, about the game in itself. Since this is the demo, some of my comments might be pointless but here we go nonetheless…
 
 First, it would be nice to be able to select the spells we would like to have. It seems to me that all characters have exactly the same spells, except the ultimate one, and the main difference between them is their ability to cast them quickly or not. It would be nice to have different spells from one class to another, even at the very beginning, and to be able to choose from different types of the same spell. For example, one class could have a poison curse. You could decide to build you poison curse over time but you could also decide to specialize your poison curse into a sub category. This poison curse could have two sub categories: cripple or damage. If you choose one category, you cannot go back to any other. This will make the game more adaptive to the player. It would also mean more spells but they won’t be accessible by all. This could enhance the player’s experimentation and elevate the replay value.

 If possible, a good thing would be able to show the possible ranking within a profession. An interesting thing to do would be to be able to decide what kind of ranking or title you would like to have. For instance, for two different titles you would need the same amount of XP but one would require a str stat of over 16 (let’s call it berserker to be old fashioned) while the other (let’s called it wise man since we’re in the clichés)  would require a int stat of at least 16. You can’t be both, you have to choose between either one of them or simply not choose either one. This would also help to make the game more adaptive and more “re-playable”.

 I would add more specialized spells, like anti-shields, anti-curse etc… But there might already be there, just not in the demo so I can’t tell. If there are no such spells, it may be a good idea to consider them. Right now, the strategies become a bit repetitive: summon shield, summon creature, shoot shield of other, re-summon shield when it’s gone, re-summon creature when it’s dead, and so forth until you win. Sure there are other things around this but it’s pretty much the same basics.

Technically speaking, I would add a “back” button in the “grimoire” or something to tell us that we need to click to exit. It’s not much but it helps to make the game clearer. It would also fit with the main menu.

  Well, that’s all I can think for the moment… On to the good part!

 The game looks good and plays very well once you understand where to look at. The game also seems to offer a lot of strategy. I didn’t play much but every time I made a new character, I tried new traits and balance. No game has been the same. Too bad I couldn’t save Wink

 I like the overall representation of the game. Simple but effective. Sober yet a touch of fantastic. It makes the game more realistic than if there were too much stuff going on. The music is also very interesting and fits the game like a glove.
 
 I love the concept of the fixed life span. This is something I feel we should see more often. I like the philosophy behind it: you can do what you want but you will come to an end no matter what. It’s quite interesting. It gives a good long-term motivation to the player: survive past those 90 years.

 All in all, a bit repetitive but interesting game. I hope to hear more about it.  This has a lot of potential!

Well, I hope I’m not to harsh with you! You did some nice job and I wish to see you doing some more!
Take care!
Guert
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« Reply #6 on: April 27, 2007, 11:37:07 PM »

Thanks guys for all your input. Especially Guert's - I clearly see that it took you some good time, to write all this great constructive criticism and feedback.

Really guys - thank you - that's exactly what I hoped to get.

Most of your ideas are really good and I'm going to implement them in the future updates of MAGI.
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« Reply #7 on: April 28, 2007, 07:29:00 AM »

I think Guert got most of that right (that's one of the most detailed feedbacks I've ever seen) -- especially the part about shortening the tutorial to the absolute minimum while still having it explain the key parts of the game and the part about the time indicator being too small.

Perhaps you could integrate the spell time with the channel GUI? For instance, have a charging color line that moves down a channel as it's charging a spell, and when it reaches that spell the spell is cast? That way you could get rid of the pentagram altogether, which might be a good idea because it's on the other side of the screen from the spells channel, which is weird (you click on the left side of the GUI to start a spell but it charges up on the right side of the GUI, which seems disconnected).
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« Reply #8 on: April 28, 2007, 01:23:39 PM »

I think that you are playing some older version of MAGI Rinku. In the current one (v1.11), there is a casting bar of sort. The spell icon fills with a nice gradient, while you gather energy for that particular spell.
Pentagrams are only used to show absolute amount of the energy (useful for some spells and skills).
I guess that this feature is done quite well by now Wink.

And yeah - Guert got it right - I'm going to include many of his suggestions. I really appreciate the feedback.

« Last Edit: April 28, 2007, 01:26:14 PM by TeeGee » Logged

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« Reply #9 on: April 29, 2007, 04:45:19 AM »

Hello there!
Thank you, I'm just trying to help out.

 One thing about gradiant-filled icons... I have not checked this in your game before posting but I feel like icons are way too small to show information like that correctly. Not that it's not impossible tho. If you use extremely contrasted color, it may work fine (black and white, blue and red, yellow and purple, etc) but still, it could be clearer. Your icons are kinda small. I'll have to take a closer look to really know for sure.

 Some game pull this out tho. But usually, the icons are at least 32x32 (48X48 is quite common too, sometimes 64X64) which makes them easier to see. They also send you a denial message saying that the spell/ability/weapon/option/whatever is not ready if you click on it.

 I guess it's something you'll have to experiment thoroughly.
Anyway, keep it up!
Guert

 
« Last Edit: April 29, 2007, 04:49:12 PM by Guert » Logged

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« Reply #10 on: April 29, 2007, 01:03:00 PM »

TeeGee,

It doesn't sound like you're considering switching to a cooldown approach instead of casting time.  Other games, like Guild Wars and Magic Battlegrounds, use casting times too and I'd like to try them with cooldown to see if it's more fun.  Both of those games would have to give up counterspells, but I'd rather see those go away anyway.

Why do you prefer casting times in MAGI?
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« Reply #11 on: April 29, 2007, 01:33:52 PM »

Hey Dylan,

I actually wanted to reply to the every suggestion posted here, saying if I'm for/against it and why. There was just too much feedback and too little time on my side to do that.

Here's why I'm unlikely to change casting times to cooldowns:

- Most important of all: it's a major change. It would require me to revamp some aspects of the gameplay, AI and balance (and I'm sure that some of  existing MAGI players would hate me for changing the gameplay that much Wink). It's not a bad concept of course - it's just completely different and, at this stage, I'm up for improvements rather than reworks.

And here's why I personally prefer casting times in MAGI:

- It allows the existence of all the energy boosting and disabling skills. These are favorite special powers of many of my players too.

- It enables "catching" badly timed spells with summons/shields. You don't like the feature, but I do - same as I do like interrupts in Guild Wars (I was a hardcore PvP Mesmer while ago Wink. Matter of personal taste.

- It makes game more strategic and timing-based. It's of course less dynamic and reflex-requireing that way, but well... that's a part of the concept.

- It makes summoning spells balanced. Imagine casting highest level Demon instantly. You don't have to worry about the cooldown as the creature is already in play. The way it is now, summong a high-tier creature requires some planning.

- There's also a psychological factor - instant casts and cooldowns make players *wait* eagerly to click another spell (and gamers are impatient). Casting times make gamers feel that they are *casting* a spell, not waiting for cooldown.

Thus said - the idea of cooldowns is good in general. I just prefer the current solution, but that's a matter of my personnal taste. In one of the earliest prototypes of MAGI, I experimented with cooldowns (and some other ideas I had), but the current one just appealed to me the most.

Anyway - many thanks for your feedback. Even if I don't want to apply this change, I think that your other suggestions were great and I'm going to play around with them.

Guert:

It's me to say "thank you" here Wink. If every person that writes "I'm just trying to help" would provide such detailed and constructive feedback as you did, the gaming world would be a so much better place.

Oh - and the icons are actually 40x40 - which is quite big for me Wink. But I'll take your opinion into account.

Again - thanks guys for your comments. Keep them coming.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2007, 01:35:57 PM by TeeGee » Logged

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« Reply #12 on: April 29, 2007, 04:57:14 PM »

Icons are 40x40? I knew I should've checked before saying anything Wink
Anywho, keep us informed when a new version will be available!
Take care!
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« Reply #13 on: April 30, 2007, 01:06:44 AM »

Sure I will.

Here's a little screenie of what I'm working on:



Health and Power values are now shown by nice bars (that flash on changes) and the casting panel is now colourful as a match-3 on LSD. I guess that this makes the UI more clear and "casual" in style. Any opinions? Colours are fine?

I'm also working on simplifying the tutorial and adding some pre-made character templates. I'll probably rework the stat screen too.
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« Reply #14 on: April 30, 2007, 08:54:43 AM »

I had this idea while looking at your screen.
Here's a way to use the colors in your spell bar. When you click a spell, taking that all higher level spells take more time to cast than the lower one, you could have agradient filling the icons from top to bottom. When you select a spell, you ahve an indicator around the icon. Once the spell is behing casted, you can add your ring effect, saying visually that something is happening with the spell. After, all  icon effects are reseted to grey. This way we can know when we're idle, chaneling for a spell or catsing it, without adding more elements to your GUI.
Here's a quick animation to show what I mean...

Take care! 
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« Reply #15 on: April 30, 2007, 09:45:29 AM »

Hmm... not sure if I like the exact idea. Some higher level spells are much quicker than lower ones and your solution would create a feeling that they are not. I also need a constant colour to separate spells, that are known to the character, from those which ready to cast (enough channels opened).

I agree however that the UI should give some more feedback on the casting process.

Actually I'm working on this in this exact momentum Wink. Right now there is a casting bar that fills the spell icon. When casting's done, the fire ring flashes to indicate a succesful casting. It gets the job done nicely.

And thanks for your concern btw Wink. I really appreciate that you even took some time to make this little animation.

I'll try to finish & post the new version asap (which still means it'll take some time - abstracting from the GUI, I have some balance issues to fix).
« Last Edit: April 30, 2007, 10:40:02 AM by TeeGee » Logged

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« Reply #16 on: April 30, 2007, 10:19:56 AM »

Ah yes, that's what I thought too. Well, a least now we all know that this option won't work Tongue

And knowing is the first step... Go Joe! :D

Anyway, keep us informed when you finish the latest build.
Take care!
Guert
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« Reply #17 on: April 30, 2007, 11:31:41 AM »

The new colors and health/power bars look like a nice improvement.  I must have missed a concept though, what is power?

I figured you had already thought through the casting/cooldown trade-offs - thanks for the reply.  For summoning minions/shields I'm convinced that casting times are the way to go.

EDIT: Now I remember, power is an estimation of difficulty.  Maybe Rank or Threat Level instead.  Mana and power both sound like resources to me.
Or better yet, just skip ahead to showing the player the estimated difficulty directly instead of asking them to compare to the two values.
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« Reply #18 on: May 01, 2007, 02:28:09 AM »

Guert:

Sure. Thanks again for your insights. I'll try to make an update by the next week. I want to finish it asap and send it to GameTunnel, before they'll finish their review for the next months round-up Wink.

Dylan Fitterer

Good to know that you like the colours and bars. Power is a sum of the player's/enemy's stats.

Actually I've planned to throw the Power meter away and change it to a nice glowing ball. It'd appear before the battle and more powerful wizard would push it towards the weaker one. I think it's a good solution and I'll implement it, if I only find a way to redraw the left UI panel, without making it ugly, and without reworking the whole thing. Wink

Quote from: Dylan Fitterer
I figured you had already thought through the casting/cooldown trade-offs - thanks for the reply.

Yup, I gave it some consideration when I was designing the core gameplay. And once again - it's me to say "thanks" here Wink. Your ideas we're really good and I'm sure that coloured spell icons and addition of character templates will make the game more accessible.
Thanks.
« Last Edit: May 11, 2007, 11:18:57 PM by TeeGee » Logged

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« Reply #19 on: May 16, 2007, 03:55:26 PM »

Sorry about the double post, but I've got a little dillema, that you could help me with.

I'm slowly finishing the 1.2 update and soon I'll get around to make a new demo. I'm thinking about enabling saving in the trial version this time. What do you guys think about that?

This would enable my potential players to experience more of the game - they could see more how the character development and AI levels work. It also makes the "trial" part less frustrating.
On the other hand - disabling save option was a simple end effective way to limit the trial version. It was a one good reason to buy the full game.

Your thoughts? What were your impressions on this matter, when you played the demo? Have you considered the lack of save option a frustrating limitation?

Oh - and here's some eye candy:

New health/energy bars. And the new system to compare power of the mages. This has to be seen in motion though. The ball struggles all the time and the lightnings... well everybody knows how lightnings behave Wink.


This screen's less exciting, but it shows the new experience bar.
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